Rape? It's the fault of the victims, say 50 per cent of women

reply to post by LadySkadi


To be honest, I didn't really know how to phrase it, although I've tried to phrase it more fully in a later post

For instance, the men in the poll were less judgemental of women. And the women polled were more likely to blame female victims of rape

There has to be a reason for this and so I wondered if men are just generally more chivalrous ? Or do men realise that 'there for the grace of God go I' when they read about accused/convicted rapists, because all men acknowledge that on some occasions, they've come close to raping a woman ? Or is it simply that men are conditioned by society to 'feel guilty' about rape and to accept guilt to the extent they regard women as automatically innocent victims re: rape ?

Then we come to the women polled. It seems they were quite specific about the hows and whys of rape. For instance, they believed that getting drunk and/or wearing revealing clothes or behaving provocatively contributes to rape

So, to summarise: do men fear that they harbour within themselves a potential rapist, which in turn leads them to regard women generally as potential victims who should be given benefit of the doubt ?

And do women recognise that had they (and women generally) behaved more responsibly, rape might have been avoided at least in some cases ?

reply to post by Dock9


It's probably been drummed into them since they were young that they've got to be careful and be ever vigilant to strangers. It's probably the whole "It will never happen to me." way of thinking that is so prevalant among young people.
The thing is that rape can happen to anyone, regardless of dress or conduct. Slightly curious how a woman can accept even partial responsibility for a criminal act that was inflicted on her?

reply to post by MacDonagh

Slightly curious how a woman can accept even partial responsibility for a criminal act that was inflicted on her?

It could be for a multitude of reasons, every one of them individual to the person and the situation. I think that anyone who is a victim of a violent crime will inevitably place some blame on themselves. It is a natural thing to do.

While I would agree that women (in general) are taught from a young age to pay attention to surroundings and to beware of strangers, what we are not necessarily taught is how to beware of those we consider friends (or family)... Remember that the statistics show that in the majority of Rapes, that attacker is known to the victim. If this is the case, perhaps it becomes a bit more clear why the victim would end up feeling some guilt over such a thing? She would question herself and wonder why she trusted this person and how she could have been so very wrong for doing so...

Originally posted by Ahabstar
Rape is one of the few crimes that I support swift vigilante justice. I see no problem with merciless, brutal torture and eventual killing of rapists.

Sadly too many women lie about rape for whatever reason, and your idea of justice would cause many innocent people to be in danger. Just think, if vigilante justice was allowed for rapists, all the lady would have to do if she wanted someone gone is say they raped her. Well. They do that anyway, but vigilantism would not make the situation any better.

I also partly agree with the fact that many women go to bars dressed as non-dressed as possible in order to entice men to think sexually about them. Someone who is drunk already has poor judgment. Then to basically dangle the carrot in front of them is not the smartest choice. Women will claim it makes them feel sexy to be wanted and have men drooling over them. Well, most of the time its not the ugly ones who get raped. Its the ones that cause unstable men to fantasize about them enough to act on it without care of consequences.

Not all rapes are beautiful women though. The other kind of rape would be men who want to assert power over their victims. These rapes are usually random and opportunistic. Basically wrong place at the wrong time type of situation.

Women can do things to lower their chances of becoming a rape victim, but that would require them to dress out of style, and act like a prude. Two things that are sadly looked down upon these days by most modern and trendy ladies. The women in todays age want men to fantasize about them. They want to be sex objects like all the women on TV. The only problem is, when that sex is coming from an unwanted, unwelcome source.

So is it their fault? No.

Could they do things to make their chances of being raped less? Yes.

Rape is a disgusting crime that damages the mind more then the body. It causes long term suffering and I have zero respect for rapists. Hopefully one day we will live in a society where anybody can walk down the street without worrying about being a victim of ANY crime. Yet sadly, it seems every day that passes, the dream keeps becoming further and further away.

Originally posted by MacDonagh
reply to post by Dock9

 

It's probably been drummed into them since they were young that they've got to be careful and be ever vigilant to strangers. It's probably the whole "It will never happen to me." way of thinking that is so prevalant among young people.
The thing is that rape can happen to anyone, regardless of dress or conduct. Slightly curious how a woman can accept even partial responsibility for a criminal act that was inflicted on her?

You're right of course, about 'it can happen to anyone, regardless', and several posters have raised this point

Children of both sexes are raped. Elderly women (and sometimes men) are raped in care-homes

Yes, we're all potential victims. And all those mentioned in the above sentence are certainly blameless

You next ask how a woman can accept even partial responsibility for a criminal act that was inflicted upon her

... which of course I realise is what they call a 'leading question'.


How about we pose a hypothetical ? No, let's make it an actual:

Woman I knew slightly attended a dinner party at which I was present. She was known as a fun, even a wild person, mother of three, recently separated (because of her numerous admitted infidelities, often with several males in a 'session'). She liked a drink (understatement)

Dinner had barely concluded before she hopped up on the coffee-table, lifted her skirt past her waist, stuck lengths of celery up both nostrils and began doing a clumsy striptease

The men looked embarrassed, moreso than the women present

She replaced the background music with something more uptempo and grabbed an attractive married man, pulled him up and began to bump and grind against him in a sort of dance

Then, she spied a book in a nearby bookcase. It's title was 'Challenge and Response' ... a history book, from memory

She read the title out loud with a dirty laugh, then to her semi-reluctant dance partner's partial embarassment, said suggestively, ' I've offered the challenge. So where's the response ? ', and at that, she commenced an exaggerated examination of her dance-partner's groin. Everyone laughed to cover their embarrassment

The man who'd partnered her to the dinner-party meanwhile raised his eyebrows and shook his head with a smile, as if to say, 'What can you do with her ? She's incorrigible, isn't she ? '. He was married to someone else and had claimed to his wife that he was 'going fishing' that evening. We'd all been told this earlier in the night and it was evident by the 'fishing type' clothing he was wearing

Several weeks later, she (the party-girl detailed above) claimed she'd been raped by one of her married-lover's friends who'd been conscripted to drive the party-girl home. She wasn't overly distraught about the actual rape, but more angry that her married-lover hadn't ended his relationship with the accused friend

How do you regard the woman in question ?

Do you suspect, even slightly, that her behaviours etc. might have contributed to what she described as 'rape' ?

1,000 adults were polled?

That's a pretty small amount to be called accurate.

reply to post by LadySkadi


Having known someone who was violated by her then boyfriend, I recall her mentioning to me that she continually blames herself for everything that she went through. Watching someone you love fall apart in front of you is something that is terrible to behold, and I argue that there is no reason for such heartbreak. At the end of the day, people have to be careful of who they let into their personal space, but there are others who are VERY good at pretending to be nice so they can be mean later.

reply to post by Signals


Yes, it is

Which is why it's interesting to read the opinions and thoughts of the general population, which is one of the reasons I initiated this thread

Must say, the responses so far have been outstanding for their intelligence, the obvious thought involved, and civility

Americans have their own version of reading the tea leaves, which involves getting on the phones at 10 AM on a Tuesday and calling all the drunks, shut-ins, sociopaths, bored divorcees and welfare cheats and asking them what they think of the direction of the nation. Surprisingly, it's still fairly accurate, in the same way crashing your car into the grocery store counts as "driving there.

reply to post by concernedcitizan


I find myself starring your posts in 99% of instances, because you're so concise and intelligent

but have to admit, I'm struggling to understand your above post. I'll read it a few more times, but perhaps when you have a moment you could clarify a bit, because I think you've sailed over my average brain this time

Originally posted by LadySkadi
I was once told I "would be easy to rape" by a guy I knew casually. That struck a nerve and I never forgot that (this was a long time ago)... I do think women need to be smart about where they are and what they are doing and with whom they are around. However, to blame a victim for Rape is terrible. That's to victimize the person twice. How sad, this is still the beliefs of some...

All women are easy to rape if you get down to it. Men are physically stronger and if its on their mind, a fully armed kung fu master is not safe. Yes, women can take precautions...knowing the standards like travel in strange places with a friend and whatnot...but ultimately, crime happens and the only thing to do is brush it off, get the perp arrested, and if someone suggests your not without blame...spray windex in their eyes. (they arent seeing clearly..it might help)

Wow. This is disgusting, totally and completely disgusting.

I am a victim of rape, and I can tell you that it is the second worst crime that can happen to a human being, the first being murder. It is hard for me to even form a response to this statistic, it absolutely sickens me. Rape victims feeling responsible for their rape is a psychological response to help cope with the enormous emotional trauma they are facing.

It is my personal belief that NO rape victims are responsible for their rape. Thats right, none. I don't care what the victim was wearing at the time, if they were intoxicated or not, it does not matter.

Nobody would ever want to face what I face every single day. It ruined me. It ruined my relationships. It ruined my health.

I would be happy to answer any questions this community has NO MATTER HOW SENSITIVE, as I believe talking about the emotional, physical, mental, and spiritual consequences of rape is the best way to raise awareness. This is what I have learned by attending months of support groups and therapy.

reply to post by Dock9


thanks for posting this. I am both stunned and sickened by this poll.. and by a couple of comments. No rape is never partially a woman's own fault. If it were partially her fault it wouldn't be called rape. Rape means forced sex/sex without consent. If a woman's car breaks down.. a better example would be she misses the last bus and has to walk home at night. No it is NOT in any way partially her fault if she gets raped as a consequence of a sequence of other events that led to her being in the wrong place at the wrong time. By that kind of logic maybe you could equally blame the train service that meant she was late getting that last bus.. or maybe a bus driver who couldn't be bothered waiting that extra half a minute. Hell you could blame a car accident/black out etc that caused a backlog of trains on the other side of town that caused the train to be delayed and her to miss the bus and so forcing her to walk home and get raped by a stranger in the dark. wtf kind of butterfly-causes-tornado logic is that? The problem is not her being in the wrong place at the wrong time.. the problem is the wrong kind of person committing a criminal act that society seems to give a free pass depending on the actions of his victim. She is not responsible for whatever sequence of events led him to being a sexual predator so why should she suddenly be accountable for him if she crosses his path? He's not completely incapable of controlling his violent impulses yet some people speak like men are pathetic cave men who can't help themselves. Thats a copout and society indulges this myth.

So walking home, wearing a short skirt or showing cleavage does not somehow equal a "partial yes" thus making it an almost rape but-not-quite. Having a drink at a bar and being dragged out the door and out in a taxi does not mean yes either. In melbourne there was the "hot chocolate rapist" who would spike the (cafe) drinks of random women.. put them in his taxi, rape them and film them. How did he get caught? When police raided his place they found the videos of him have sex with unconcious women. The first some of the women knew about their own rapes was police telling them and showing them the footage.

There were also cases where bouncers had "deals" with drink spikers and let them drag half asleep woman out the door without question. I had intervened a couple of times when women were being dragged away who could only murmer a no and were otherwise too plastered to resist. I have no idea if they were drunk or drugged but men know better and so do the bouncers when they let them leave with them. It's obvious they don't want to go so wtf do men get patted on the back when they are about to "score" with someone who can barely stand up? That is very common in club culture. I have no moral issue with people having one night stands but there is a point where the guy would know he's doing the wrong thing. Maybe when she can't speak or is throwing up on herself? If she is asleep.. yes its still rape even if she doesn't know about it.

Yes I do this a woman should be responsible for her own welfare but boys are not being taught boundaries.. and girls need to be taught that it's okay to hit and poush men away. I knew a girl who got raped by the school gardener. I asked why she didn't fight him off (she was a big girl) and she said "but I could never hit someone". Being nice is nice and all but some people put their daughters at risk (for the record no I still do not think it was my friends fault.. it was his fault and the schools fault for hiring a rapist she was 13 and it should have been a safe place). Amazingly she always thought she had not been "techincally" raped because she could not scream or fight back like in the movies. She cried though.. how messed up is that? Blaming herself because she could not yell out.. that is what society teaches girls.

Originally posted by Koolcdj69
I am not saying the blame is on women, but when or if women dress in like a manner that would interest a crazy lunatic guy, it gets him which can be in a way a women's fault, knowing what they are wearing or exposing of themselves may suade a crazy guy into doing something.

Erm.. no.

If he is that crazy he should go have himself commited and get chemical carstration or something. If a glimpse of cleavage is going to trigger the rapist within him he needs to be locked up.. how a woman is wearing her clothes is not going to make a shred of difference to such a depraved psyche.

Speaking of crazy men who cannot control themselves and like to blame women for their lack of self control and.. well for eveything wrong in their lives.. here is a youtube classic. It always makes me laugh.

www.youtube.com...

It also shows the attitudes some people still have.

reply to post by MarlboroRedCowgirl


So you don't believe a woman's behaviour or dress is partially responsible, in terms of the message she may be perceived as sending out ?

reply to post by Dock9


Rape is a notoriously difficult crime to prosecute in Scotland due to the ambiguity in Scots Law. It's of no coincidence that the conviction rate is around about 3% and 5%. Whether or not, the girl in the situation was raped, (though she doesn't seem too distraught about it.) her sexual history would be explored in court and it'd be laughed out of court. It is as it is. Blaming the victim is a very successful tactic and can be used to great effect.

news.scotsman.com...

news.bbc.co.uk...

reply to post by MarlboroRedCowgirl


I think we ALL agree that even a drunk chick shouldn't be exposed to a guy having his way with her. The main question I believe or the main thought is don't women think THEY are NOT helping themselves by putting themselves into situations where scumbags WILL do this sort of thing?

RAPE if done by someone you know is one thing
RAPE if done by a stranger is another thing
RAPE if done by a guy you barely know is yet another thing

I think the focus of this "survey" way to find out if people think women could do a better job to NOT get themselves into a situation where this stuff happens.....and I agree it should NEVER happen, but it does and will continue to do so...soooo the main thing is to try and avoid it.

Originally posted by concernedcitizan
Americans have their own version of reading the tea leaves, which involves getting on the phones at 10 AM on a Tuesday and calling all the drunks, shut-ins, sociopaths, bored divorcees and welfare cheats and asking them what they think of the direction of the nation. Surprisingly, it's still fairly accurate, in the same way crashing your car into the grocery store counts as "driving there.

That the best laugh I've had today. Thanks.


I think one should also account for the bell curve. 50% of people have IQs below 100. 50% of the women here polled will have IQs 100 and below.

Stupid people might be nice - but they have a limited capacity to hold multiple factors in their heads. That's probably why they like being told what to do.

Originally posted by Dock9
reply to post by MarlboroRedCowgirl

 

So you don't believe a woman's behaviour or dress is partially responsible, in terms of the message she may be perceived as sending out ?

One can go to the nude event and be fine.

It is all in your head. I am not responsible, nor even capable, of what is in your head.

reply to post by riley


I appreciate everything you've written here, as I'm sure do all who'll read it

It's a very complex and emotion-arousing issue, isn't it ? Which is why the poll results (50% of women blame female rape victims) are worthy of discussion and analysis

We could also add to what you've said by including the mature-aged Australian woman who was drugged and raped on a cruise. The rapists stuck together and denied all charges for a long time, claiming the victim had been willing.

So they not only stole her dignity and rights (and consciousness !) when she was alive -- they defamed her when she was dead and unable to defend herself.

Imagine being the husband and child of that poor woman, trying to cope with her death --unable to even bury her with dignity but being instead compelled to wait until the coroner had concluded examination -- and having to listen to and see the lurid headlines where she was accused by several men of being a willing party to drunken sex with all of them

Originally posted by Dock9
reply to post by MarlboroRedCowgirl

 

So you don't believe a woman's behaviour or dress is partially responsible, in terms of the message she may be perceived as sending out ?

I have never seen a piece of clothing that has said, "hey, come have sex with me against my will." For the first time woman are able to wear as little or as much clothing as they wish. I live in Southern California, and it gets hot here in the summer. If I'm going to the beach, why should I have to wear more that a skirt and bikini top? Because I have to be afraid that I am subconsciously giving the ok for someone to rape me?