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Rape? It's the fault of the victims, say 50 per cent of women
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reply to post by Dock9
I completely disagree. I read the article, I read the member's original post, and your quoting of it twice.
You can quote it 1000 times and that doesn't change my opinion. Rape, or any crime, is the fault of the perpetrator. Some crimes can be avoided. You can, by your actions, make a crime less likely. But when it comes to legal responsibility, it's the responsibility of the person committing the crime. If I'm on the jury, I won't care about anything other than consent. Not how someone was dressed, where they were, or how much they had to drink.
To say otherwise, to share the "blame", to make the victim partially responsible, lessens the responsibility to the criminal. That, I completely disagree with, and apparently we're at loggerheads on that one, so I'll bow out. There isn't any more I can say that I haven't already. We apparently will have to just disagree, although I'm still not sure why.
I completely disagree. I read the article, I read the member's original post, and your quoting of it twice.
You can quote it 1000 times and that doesn't change my opinion. Rape, or any crime, is the fault of the perpetrator. Some crimes can be avoided. You can, by your actions, make a crime less likely. But when it comes to legal responsibility, it's the responsibility of the person committing the crime. If I'm on the jury, I won't care about anything other than consent. Not how someone was dressed, where they were, or how much they had to drink.
To say otherwise, to share the "blame", to make the victim partially responsible, lessens the responsibility to the criminal. That, I completely disagree with, and apparently we're at loggerheads on that one, so I'll bow out. There isn't any more I can say that I haven't already. We apparently will have to just disagree, although I'm still not sure why.
As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.
reply to post by toochaos4u
This is very true. When i worked in bars I always told people two things-Never leave a drink unattended and always stand next to a person buying you a drink and watch the Bartender make it. This is the safest bet. Also, if you aren't carded at the door/inside RUN AWAY. You can bet there is a lot of shady stuff going down if it doesn't happen.
This is very true. When i worked in bars I always told people two things-Never leave a drink unattended and always stand next to a person buying you a drink and watch the Bartender make it. This is the safest bet. Also, if you aren't carded at the door/inside RUN AWAY. You can bet there is a lot of shady stuff going down if it doesn't happen.
reply to post by antonia
That's the unvarnished truth there. If they aren't carding...run, don't walk, run away. Then contact the police, or at the very least, the liquor control board...because that place is up to no good.
That's the unvarnished truth there. If they aren't carding...run, don't walk, run away. Then contact the police, or at the very least, the liquor control board...because that place is up to no good.
Sorry, OutKast
but I'm departing this thread for a while
I can't deal with or comprehend the level of deliberate misinterpretation that's being recycled, page after page
People WANT to focus on one thing, that much is apparent. They want to visualise a poor, defenceless female at the mercy of a brutal rapist
Maybe they're vicariously enjoying recycling it over and over
And maybe their protests are subconscious denial about what's really going on in their heads
YOU have attempted numerous times to explain why 50% of women polled held responsible women THEY considered to be guilty of low behavioural standards
I've attempted to do likewise, as has Tifazi and a handful of others
It should NOT be beyond the grasp of those of average intelligence
But they seem to pride themselves on their donkey stubborness and inflexibility
They WANT it to be about genuine rape and to hell with the thousands of grey areas
They WANT to parrot all the slogans from books they've read and the outdated Oprah videos
They do NOT want to acknowledge that numerous women contribute to their rape to varying degrees
Wonder why they don't want to acknowledge that ?
Or, maybe some of them are simply trolling in retaliation for a whipping they might have received in other threads. Very mature
Ok. I admire your endurance, although I'd advise you stop tossing pearls before swine
To you and the others who've attempted to pull this thread from the rigid hands of the 'rape fundamentalists', I say 'Respect'
and bye for now
but I'm departing this thread for a while
I can't deal with or comprehend the level of deliberate misinterpretation that's being recycled, page after page
People WANT to focus on one thing, that much is apparent. They want to visualise a poor, defenceless female at the mercy of a brutal rapist
Maybe they're vicariously enjoying recycling it over and over
And maybe their protests are subconscious denial about what's really going on in their heads
YOU have attempted numerous times to explain why 50% of women polled held responsible women THEY considered to be guilty of low behavioural standards
I've attempted to do likewise, as has Tifazi and a handful of others
It should NOT be beyond the grasp of those of average intelligence
But they seem to pride themselves on their donkey stubborness and inflexibility
They WANT it to be about genuine rape and to hell with the thousands of grey areas
They WANT to parrot all the slogans from books they've read and the outdated Oprah videos
They do NOT want to acknowledge that numerous women contribute to their rape to varying degrees
Wonder why they don't want to acknowledge that ?
Or, maybe some of them are simply trolling in retaliation for a whipping they might have received in other threads. Very mature
Ok. I admire your endurance, although I'd advise you stop tossing pearls before swine
To you and the others who've attempted to pull this thread from the rigid hands of the 'rape fundamentalists', I say 'Respect'
and bye for now
Someone said the phrase "invitation to have sex".
In my opinion, even if a woman invited a man to her place or anywhere for sex, she can still change her mind.
Right up to the minute that the "act" is ready to take place, it's still her right to change her mind, say no and be allowed to dress and leave.
Thoughts on this one... a man and a woman agree to have sex, a couple of minutes into it ( actual intercourse), she changes her mind and says she doesn't want to, if the man refuses to stop, is it rape? I say yes it is.
In my opinion, even if a woman invited a man to her place or anywhere for sex, she can still change her mind.
Right up to the minute that the "act" is ready to take place, it's still her right to change her mind, say no and be allowed to dress and leave.
Thoughts on this one... a man and a woman agree to have sex, a couple of minutes into it ( actual intercourse), she changes her mind and says she doesn't want to, if the man refuses to stop, is it rape? I say yes it is.
reply to post by elevatedone
Yes, it's rape. Once the word no appears, it's over. Roll off, and leave...done deal.
Yes, it's rape. Once the word no appears, it's over. Roll off, and leave...done deal.
reply to post by elevatedone
That action translates into use of force, and that is in the base of the definition of rape.
For something to be "healthy" and "right", the two people """working""" together must WANT to """work""" together.
It doesn't matter if it's in the beginning, undressing, flirting, or whatever. A dead end, is a dead end.
Anything that goes against the will and right of the other person, is rape.
That action translates into use of force, and that is in the base of the definition of rape.
For something to be "healthy" and "right", the two people """working""" together must WANT to """work""" together.
It doesn't matter if it's in the beginning, undressing, flirting, or whatever. A dead end, is a dead end.
Anything that goes against the will and right of the other person, is rape.
more about blame the victim
children are responsible for their abuse
war victims are responsible for their deaths and destruction due to war
victims of identity theft are responsible for theft identity
animals subjected to cruel masters are responsible for their abuse
NO NO NO
there are victims always of the cruel and the demented and the evil ones
THEY ARE THE VICTIMS NOT THE PERPETRATORS
black is white
wrong is right
up is down
this is pure crap and pity the women who blame themselves - they are not to blame for the rapists actions
this is an example of deception-
children are responsible for their abuse
war victims are responsible for their deaths and destruction due to war
victims of identity theft are responsible for theft identity
animals subjected to cruel masters are responsible for their abuse
NO NO NO
there are victims always of the cruel and the demented and the evil ones
THEY ARE THE VICTIMS NOT THE PERPETRATORS
black is white
wrong is right
up is down
this is pure crap and pity the women who blame themselves - they are not to blame for the rapists actions
this is an example of deception-
Originally posted by Dock9
reply to post by yeahright
You continue preaching
yet I have already posted that I am female and I have been raped
It was a brutal rape. It was definitely of the SAID NO variety. I came home from work, turned the key to my apartment. The door was pulled from my grasp. It was pitch black. The shock was total. My mind couldn't grasp what had happened. It was terrifying. I had no preparation. Tried to escape. Was being hit hard. Later I learned my nose had been broken. The rapist tried to strangle and beat me into silence. He was very strong. Naked and covered in sweat. I went unconscious during part of the attack. He had a knife
Later, it was discovered I had deep lacerations all over my back from trying to inch and fight my way across jagged tiles out from under and away from the attacker. I had thrombosis in my thighs. Few days later they were mottled black, I'd fought so hard
So don't lecture me, thank you
because I'm fully aware of what constitutes rape
I'm guessing people will not want to read this post, because it will deprive them of the moral high-road they've been riding in this thread
Do you THINK I do not know what actual rape is like ?
And .. because I DO know what actual rape is like, with all the ramifications ... I am STILL able to differentiate between an 'I said NO' type rape and the claims of rape which are made by idiot women who put themselves in harm's way and believe 'someone else' must, must shoulder full responsibility for their actions
That's an insane attitude, it's immature, it's unreasonable, it's unfair, it's dishonest
Dear God, you have got to be joking.
So as a RAPE VICTIM, you play the MY RAPE IS WORSE THAN YOUR RAPE game??
What a sick warped attitude you have towards rape victims.
I was under the assumption we are talking about RAPE. In any scenerio where a PERSON does not give consent (whether turning the key in the door or flashing it drink on the dance floor) IT IS RAPE.
These STRAW MAN SCENARIOS everyone keeps pulling out of their hind ends ARE NOT RAPE.
I am just shocked that to have gone through such an awful experience, you STILL HAVE to validate yourself by JUDGING other victims. Are you angry they did not "suffer" as "physically" as you did? How can you justify your attitude?
These so called teases who are getting raped are being raped by a person JUST LIKE THE ONE WHO RAPED YOU-a sexual predator. Do you honestly say you wish for those other sex preds to go FREE of their CRIME?
I cannot believe this thread.
reply to post by Dock9
I have to agree with you, here. Perhaps you do need to step back for a bit and breathe. Come back when you feel better, because right now (IMHO) it feels like this topic is hitting home too hard and you're having difficulty really seeing what others are writing. I mean this with good intentions.
I have to agree with you, here. Perhaps you do need to step back for a bit and breathe. Come back when you feel better, because right now (IMHO) it feels like this topic is hitting home too hard and you're having difficulty really seeing what others are writing. I mean this with good intentions.
reply to post by antonia
Very true. My mom didn't even consider it because she was in her 50's and had never been to bars. She was naive that something like that could happen amongst her friends.
Very true. My mom didn't even consider it because she was in her 50's and had never been to bars. She was naive that something like that could happen amongst her friends.
reply to post by elevatedone
Elevatedone - A million years ago (it seems) when I was a teenager, I was actually in that very situation with one of my sisters friends. We were drunk, fooling around, one thing led to another and right in the middle of it she changed her mind. I didn't debate her or plead with her or finish anyway and say it was her fault. I rolled off and that was that. We are to this day (almost 30 years later) still good friends. She said no. It didn't matter why, it was a no. I respected that.
Elevatedone - A million years ago (it seems) when I was a teenager, I was actually in that very situation with one of my sisters friends. We were drunk, fooling around, one thing led to another and right in the middle of it she changed her mind. I didn't debate her or plead with her or finish anyway and say it was her fault. I rolled off and that was that. We are to this day (almost 30 years later) still good friends. She said no. It didn't matter why, it was a no. I respected that.
reply to post by Dock9
You are right...that is hard to read...and things like this shouldn't happen.
I know you and I are on the same page on this topic and I am guessing probably for similar reasons.
To me...when a female goes out, gets hammered drunk, wakes up with a stranger and claims "rape"...it diminishes the term of "rape". Maybe there should be another term used for this.
Because rape is what you had to endure and it in no way compares to a night of partying and a bad decision...and yet the same term is used for what you weant through and what a drunk female who was irresponsible weant through.
And unfortunately now...since the same word is used for those two situations...when someone says they were raped it is no longer immediately and automatically thought of as the henious crime that everyoene should think of it as...but as this survey points out some people pause and think if maybe the women was at fault.
There truly should be a different term used for two situations. It blurs the lines otherwise and that isn't a wise thing to do with rape.
You are right...that is hard to read...and things like this shouldn't happen.
I know you and I are on the same page on this topic and I am guessing probably for similar reasons.
To me...when a female goes out, gets hammered drunk, wakes up with a stranger and claims "rape"...it diminishes the term of "rape". Maybe there should be another term used for this.
Because rape is what you had to endure and it in no way compares to a night of partying and a bad decision...and yet the same term is used for what you weant through and what a drunk female who was irresponsible weant through.
And unfortunately now...since the same word is used for those two situations...when someone says they were raped it is no longer immediately and automatically thought of as the henious crime that everyoene should think of it as...but as this survey points out some people pause and think if maybe the women was at fault.
There truly should be a different term used for two situations. It blurs the lines otherwise and that isn't a wise thing to do with rape.
reply to post by yeahright
Maybe the difference is that you are speaking of "legal responsibility" and I am speaking of "personal responsibility".
Personal responsibility is something that there should be much more of in our society.
[edit on 15-2-2010 by OutKast Searcher]
Maybe the difference is that you are speaking of "legal responsibility" and I am speaking of "personal responsibility".
Personal responsibility is something that there should be much more of in our society.
[edit on 15-2-2010 by OutKast Searcher]
The placing partial blame on the women is analagous to saying that I was robbed and partially responsible for being robbed just because I happened to
have been observed as having had money in my wallet !
Yes AND No. If the person was looking to rob someone anyway, then they were simply looking for a victim in which to rob.
The same applies to Rape which simply is another form of assault.
It does take two to tango but a rape in a technical sense does not occur voluntarily, but as with all assaults is by force.
And is exactly Why I have taught self defense for years to Women and advocate that all women should know how to defend themselves if necessary. It should be part of the school curriculum.
Aikido is a great form of self defense for women because it doesn't require much upper body strength but instead uses your opponents momentum and mass against themselves.
In essence, where the head goes the body must follow.
IF ALL women could defend themselves against these cowards it would only balance the sides a bit and perhaps make a potential assaulter think twice about attempting to assault an individual who most likely is about half of their size and weight.
If one looks back at WWII when the US first began encountering the Japanese, small men in comparison to Americans but very capable of defending themselves in hand to hand combat.
Now, a basic form of Jiu Jitsu is taught to all US Military as a result.
Yes AND No. If the person was looking to rob someone anyway, then they were simply looking for a victim in which to rob.
The same applies to Rape which simply is another form of assault.
It does take two to tango but a rape in a technical sense does not occur voluntarily, but as with all assaults is by force.
And is exactly Why I have taught self defense for years to Women and advocate that all women should know how to defend themselves if necessary. It should be part of the school curriculum.
Aikido is a great form of self defense for women because it doesn't require much upper body strength but instead uses your opponents momentum and mass against themselves.
In essence, where the head goes the body must follow.
IF ALL women could defend themselves against these cowards it would only balance the sides a bit and perhaps make a potential assaulter think twice about attempting to assault an individual who most likely is about half of their size and weight.
If one looks back at WWII when the US first began encountering the Japanese, small men in comparison to Americans but very capable of defending themselves in hand to hand combat.
Now, a basic form of Jiu Jitsu is taught to all US Military as a result.
Originally posted by yeahright
Originally posted by sos37
Does the "No" rule still apply? Or would it be fair to say "Some day she's going to get raped because she keeps putting herself in that situation"?
It would be fair to say that, and it would also be fair to punish the cretin who raped her to the full extent of the law. A perceived invitation is not consent.
I've already said that I believe that rape is rape. I'm challenging the notion that the woman does not share part of the blame.
If you say that it would be fair to say that the woman in question in going to get raped BECAUSE she keeps putting herself in that situation then you must agree that SHE MUST share some of the blame.
Where's the personal responsibility for one's own actions these days?
Originally posted by hotbakedtater
By the way....
ALL RAPES ARE OF THE SAID NO VARIETY.
:
In your previous post you seem to think "drunk consent" is "no".
So no...not all are of the "said no variety"...because you are inserting excuses for drunk females...but holding drunk men responsible for their actions.
reply to post by OutKast Searcher
Outkast - when a woman makes a stupid mistake and claims rape - she should be prosecuted. I don't think anyone here is debating that part. When a woman says no - no matter what happened up to that point - it is no. If you continue anyway, it is rape.
Edited to add: Personal responsibility applies to men too. When a woman says no, it is a man's personal responsibility to stop.
[edit on 15-2-2010 by tallcool1]
Outkast - when a woman makes a stupid mistake and claims rape - she should be prosecuted. I don't think anyone here is debating that part. When a woman says no - no matter what happened up to that point - it is no. If you continue anyway, it is rape.
Edited to add: Personal responsibility applies to men too. When a woman says no, it is a man's personal responsibility to stop.
[edit on 15-2-2010 by tallcool1]
reply to post by sos37
The only "blame", if one wants to use such a term, the victim has in such a circumstance is unkind fate. Wrong place, wrong time. In no other way is she, or he for that matter, to "blame".
The only "blame", if one wants to use such a term, the victim has in such a circumstance is unkind fate. Wrong place, wrong time. In no other way is she, or he for that matter, to "blame".