Rape? It's the fault of the victims, say 50 per cent of women

Originally posted by OutKast Searcher
reply to post by tallcool1

 

But it is good we disagree...who wants to live a world where everyone thinks the same

I absolutely agree with that statement.

With that, I need to sign off. I have been online too long and I should be working. Now, is it my boss's fault that he provides me with a high speed internet connection and I am not working...

reply to post by yeahright


Well, the one crying rape SHOULD be the one to present evidence that it happened.

Look at the recent case where several members of the Duke University LaCrosse team were wrongfully accused of the rape of a stripper. We later found out that the stripper had no evidence to support her claim and the prosecuting attorney was entirely overzealous in making sure that "justice was done", even to the point of ignoring facts.

And while these guys were acquitted of charges, look at the damage it did to their reputation and to the reputation of Duke University!

And I argue that all these "pass the buck" on responsibility posts from people in this thread most-likely mirror what the prosecuting attorney was thinking - that "THEY MUST PAY, NO MATTER THE COST!". That attorney was disbarred, I believe.

Originally posted by Selahobed
reply to post by OutKast Searcher

 

The analogy is foolish.. There is a lot of difference between an car and a human being.. Cars can be fixed or replaced.. Humans can't.. And if they live through the experience, they will always be plagued with the emotional turmoil that will spill into all their relationships creating many more victims...

Hypothetically... If you were a rapist who got caught and imprisoned, you would have to do a sex offender treatment program.. If you came out with THAT argument during the program the chances of you being released would be zero.....

It is not foolish at all. And I agree...there is a lot of difference between a car and a human being. Which makes it even MORE IMPORTANT for females to take responsibility for their actions and not put them in a dangerous situation.

Understand that I am not trying to argue that it is the women's fault and not the rapist. I am not trying to argue that the rapist shouldn't go to jail (hell I would execute them) just because I think the women put her self in a dangerous situation.

But it doesn't help to protect women by telling them that they "should be allowed to wear anything they want". THAT is foolish.

I think you, and others, are taking what I am saying as I want to defend rapist...when in fact what I would like to see happen is women take responsibility of their actions (and yes that does include being smart about what you wear) to PROTECT themselves and be smart about it.

But if you really don't like my analogy...how about this...should I be able to wear anything I want? Should I be able to wear clothes and hats in such colors and in such a fasion that I know is signalling me as a gang member? Should I be able to wear this and knowingly go into a rival gangs neighborhood and just EXPECT them to respect my wishes for wanting to dress like this? In a perfect world...yes...I should be able to do that. But in the REAL WORLD I would be STUPID and be PERSONALLY RESPONSIBLE if something happened to me.

We don't live in a perfect world...so making stupid decisions (like dressing provocatively and walking down a dark ally) makes you share RESPONSIBILITY and FAULT if something happens to you because of those decisions.

reply to post by OutKast Searcher


Why would I NOT stand by it? I was referring to rape, not a both parties are drunk scenario, which IS NOT rape.

For the hundredth time, please go back and read my posts.

reply to post by OutKast Searcher
So, what if the women happens to live in the shady area of town, maybe she can't afford to move to those nice pleasant homes in the safer area? what if she had to go out at night, maybe her kid was sick, needed medicine and she couldn't afford the car also....
doesn't she have the right, no matter what area of the town she lives in, to go out and be safe??
just because someone is in the wrong place, at the wrong time doesn't mean they are inviting trouble!
and, well, hey, we could close all the bars, that would eliminate all those drunks carelessly making babies for our welfare system to support!

Originally posted by earthdude

Originally posted by sos37

Originally posted by zatara

THAT IS 100% THE FAULT OF THE RAPIST.

I'll never agree to that at least if you meant to say "THAT IS 100% THE FAULT OF THE RAPIST 100% OF THE TIME"

That's an absolute and totally acquits the victim of ANY actions he/she was doing prior to the rape happening, no matter what those actions are.

That logic completely escapes me.

No matter what the victim did prior to rape is important.

I know what you meant to say - it's not important what the victim did prior to being raped.

And I completely disagree with that statement. We are going to have to agree to disagree on that because I am not going to change my mind.

Is it still rape? Yes, of course. Does the rapist deserve jail time or worse? Yep, no doubt about it. Is it 100% the rapist's fault? That depends on what happened before the rape!

reply to post by hotbakedtater


So a man can rape someone while drunk...unless they female is also drunk...then it isn't rape.


You seem to have to make a lot of exceptions for your arguments...which is a good sign that they are wrong.

Originally posted by hotbakedtater
reply to post by sos37

 

really? Because you dont like what I have to say you will just QUIT debating me? Gosh, that was an easy victory!

Edit to add I cannot stand someone bashing my opinion over and over, and then ignoring my logical VALID rational responses, goes and CHICKENS out of the whole debate. Quitter. Defend your viewpoint like I am, or do not start with it at all.

I certainly would not have wasted my time replying to you if I had known you were not interested in a true debate, but some kind of conversion to your opinion. That is not how debates work.

[edit on 15-2-2010 by hotbakedtater]

Yeah that's it. I'm not talking to you because I don't like what YOU have to say.

Read my other posts. I don't like what a lot of people here have to say and I'm debating them, but they aren't responding with their hearts on their sleeves, either.

I'm not getting into an emotional debate with you. This is strictly about logic.

reply to post by Dock9


"say 50 per cent of women" Until it happens to them.

More education needed.

reply to post by dawnstar


I'm not sure you are living in reality.

Does she deserve to be "safe"...of course...everyone does. Will she be safe? Maybe...maybe not.

But can she take actions to make her self safer? Yes...she can. She can also make stupid decisions and make herself less safe (Ipod anyone?).

Either way...if she is the victim of a crime the criminal is at fault both PERSONALLY and CRIMINALLY. But if she made a stupid decision to make her an easy target...then she is also PERSONALLY RESPONSIBLE for that and thus it is partially her fault that the event happened. If she took ever step she could to be safe and didn't intentially do something to make herself a easy target...then she is not at fault.

I really don't see how this is so hard to see.

I just want to say that when I hear men say that rape is never justified, and standing firm when others (male and female) equivocate, then I have hope for the future. There was a time, not too long ago, when rape victims were assumed to have brought it on themselves. A big THANK YOU to guys who tell guys it's always wrong. Back in the 70's, I read an article in my then-husband's Penthouse magazine titled 'Women who tease deserve to get raped'. I'm pretty sure my letter to the editor was the only dissent. We are making progress!

Rape is a power trip. Men don't have to rape just to satisfy their sexual urges -- they can get a hooker anytime of the day and for that matter a lot of women will go to bed with a man without him even buying her dinner!

I recently read the book "Son" about the South Hill rapist in Spokane back in the late70's early 80's. Fascinating book btw, it will keep you up till 4 a.m. guaranteed. Anyway, this psycho raped up to 200 women they think, and in one very interesting case the alleged victim, accosted while walking home one night, played up to him, said she wanted it, said he had to let her "____" his "____" first though. He suddenly lost interest in her and walked away. It's all about the power, and that is horse manure that women bring it on. Talk to rape victims who never get a good night sleep again and ask if they feel they brought it on. Survey smurvey.

Either way...if she is the victim of a crime the criminal is at fault both PERSONALLY and CRIMINALLY. But if she made a stupid decision to make her an easy target...then she is also PERSONALLY RESPONSIBLE for that and thus it is partially her fault that the event happened. If she took ever step she could to be safe and didn't intentially do something to make herself a easy target...then she is not at fault.

reply to post by OutKast Searcher


If you read my description of my rape, then skip this next little bit. Otherwise, here it is again briefly.

I was invited to play in the woods with an older friend. We'd done this for years, never had been a problem. Only this time it was. He was 17. I was 13.

By your reasoning, all the legal fault is his, but I have fault as well.

I should have known better than to go into the woods alone with a guy (never mind I looked at him as a brother).
I should have been able to defend myself better physically, despite the fact that he outweighed me by 60 pounds and knocked me senseless before I even knew what was happening.


You know, I spent years beating myself up with that thinking. And I have since concluded a couple of things.

No, it was NOT my fault that this happened.
Should I be more careful? Absolutely. Should I take precautions, learn to defend myself? Without a doubt.
Am I to blame? No.

I get what you are saying. You want the victim to realize that certain behaviors makes it more likely you will end up in those situations.

I agree with that thinking. You drive drunk, then don't be surprised when you have an accident.

You flash around a lot of money, don't be surprised if you get robbed.

Doesn't mean I think their attacker in any way deserves less than 100% of the fault. I think this is what you are saying as well.

So we're probably just debating semantics.

reply to post by OutKast Searcher


you, or me, or no one else but her, could know for sure if she did every thing in her power to be "safe". but, well, according to this study it seems that around half of the women feel that they have all the facts, all the knowledge, and are able to judge just that!!
they don't have that, it's just so darned human to see others as below them in one way or another, and that is all this is.....

like I said, you have no idea why the person is driving through that shady part of town, you have no idea why that girl is walking down that alley or dark street!!
afghanistan managed to keep the women inside, windows paited black, all in the guise of it's a dangerous world out there!!
well, ya, it can be a dangerous world out there, but we all have to go out into it for one reason or another. just like the women in afghanistan had to regardless of what their laws said!

Originally posted by yeahright

reply to post by sos37

 

This particular thread is about victims of rape. Not false accusations. The thread is, "Rape? It's the fault of the victims, say 50% of women". We're discussing situations where a rape did in fact occur. An actual rape with a rapist and a victim. We're looking at the appropriateness of assigning percentages of blame in those specific circumstances.

I'm still trying to figure out what the ramifications for that actually are from the ones who are arguing for it. Is there, or do you want, a consequence for assigning blame to the victim? If so, what is that consequence to either the victim or the rapist?

I'm attempting to show the opposite - how overzealous, emotional and absolute decisions such as "100% at fault 100% of the time" go on to create people like the prosecuting attorney in the Duke Lacrosse team case. People like this CAN impact a society in a negative way, even if their intentions are good.

Again, I would love for a court of law to look at every rape case objectively, without emotion and look at the events leading up to the incident INCLUDING what the woman was wearing.

Now before you lock 'n load, I'm not in any way saying a woman deserves to be raped if she dresses like a tramp. But I do think the courts should look at everything that happened and look at all the facts including the attire in which both were wearing. Not so much to assign a verdict of guilty or not guilty, but to issue a statement in the case something like "in this case, while the accused has been found guilty, it needs to be noted that the victim is not completely without blame, for the following reasons...", or something to that affect.

Why? I would argue that for one, it further heightens awareness in areas of social conduct, social interaction and expecting to make accusations without scrutiny of facts.

[edit on 15-2-2010 by sos37]

reply to post by novacs4me


I don't see anyone here trying to "justify" rape.

Just because I think that some women put themselves in dangerous situations and they are 1) stupid for doing so and 2) need to take responsibility for their actions....does not mean that I am trying to "justify" rape.

I firmly believe "No means No"...always.

But I also firmly believe that we don't live in a perfect world and for a women to say "I should be able to wear whatever I want" is naive, stupid, and putting yourself in a potentially dangerous situation. I am not saying they "deserve" to get raped if they dress a certain way...but I am saying they need to realize that there are poeple out there that do think that. To think otherwise is stupid on their part.

I can give example after example...and people will say my analogies are foolish...but they are true...and so I will give another one. Should I, an american, be able to travel peacfully right now in Afganistan? Do I DESERVE to be kidnapped by terrorists? No...but I would be stupid to go there right now and just assume I am safe because in a perfect world I SHOULD be able to travel there. But say I did...and say I did get kidnapped...how many of you would say "WTF was he thinking going over there?" And how many of you would say, "It's not his fault...he SHOULD be able to travel there safely."???

If we can agree rape is a power trip, then where is the power trip in having intoxicated intercourse? How can a man possibly feel superior, successful, alpha, or what ever term you would like to call it, in sleep with a female when she is not in her right mind?

Personally, I would feel terrible about myself if I had to get a female drunk to have a good time with me. Whether I'm drunk or not, not being good enough in a sober state means that I have some serious improvement to do on myself.

If it can be said that rape is a power trip for the party doing the raping, then is "consent-while-drunk-intercourse" rape?

reply to post by loner007


As to your first question, unknown to me. As to your second yes. If a women dresses provocativly she is asking for trouble if she is not looking for sex. BUT, that is the fault of designers and clothing manufacturers that are useing sex to sell their products. Perhaps it is time for wemon to wake up and break the habit of following "fashion trends".