Absolute proof: A Pentagon picture montage from start to finish

reply to post by dereks




I really hate to rain all over your little parade but -

Originally posted by dereks

Originally posted by Lillydale
You offered a link and claimed it contained pictures of PASSENGER bodies



No one has yet proved that they were not passenger bodies - just another truther lie!

What do you mean that no one has proven that they are NOT passenger bodies if not to say that they are? May I get an explanation if I ask real nice like?

Originally posted by dereks

Originally posted by downisreallyup
It is completely ridiculous to suggest that aircraft can vaporize such that all recognizable seats and body parts are rendered invisible.

Here once again we have a truther refusing to admit a first responder saw a body strapped into a seat - because it destroys their silly conspiracy theory!

Where is the proof that a first responder saw this? Any proof at all would be great! That is the only way you can actually claim that this is a lie. You are repeating hearsay.

BACK IT UP.

Originally posted by Lillydale

Originally posted by dereks

Originally posted by downisreallyup
The Rolls Royce engines for a 747 weight between 46,000 pounds and 50,100 pounds.

More "truther" quality research there, a RB211 Rolls Royce engine for a 747 weighs between 9470 and 9874 pounds
en.wikipedia.org...

NO SEAT REMNANTS, no BODY PARTS, no MAJOR ENGINE PARTS, no Flight Data Recorder

and again we have a truther telling lies....

seats seen
www.usatoday.com...
"When Williams discovered the scorched bodies of several airline passengers, they were still strapped into their seats. The stench of charred flesh overwhelmed him."It was the worst thing you can imagine," said Williams, whose squad from Fort Belvoir, Va., entered the building, less than four hours after the terrorist attack. "I wanted to cry from the minute I walked in. But I have soldiers under me and I had to put my feelings aside."

body parts, pictures of and where they were found
www.vaed.uscourts.gov...

major 757 engine parts
www.aerospaceweb.org...

Flight 77 FDR data
forums.randi.org...
so it was found....

why do some "truthers" lie so much, when their lies are so easily shown?

And here is the original post.

I absolutely resent being called a liar! I said that the engines weighed between 46,000 pounds and 50,100 pounds. This is mostly accurate as follows:

1) 747-400 using the Rolls Royce RB211 @ 9874 x 4 = 39,496 lbs.
2) 747-8 using the Rolls Royce Trent 1000 @ 12709 x 4 = 50,836 lbs.

I was not talking about the weight of a single engine, I was talking about the combined weight! So, Dereks, DO NOT call me a liar again!

Also, you claiming that some guy saw seats is a far cry from showing actual photographs of seats in the wreckage! Just show one or two airline seats and I will begin to look into this idea of an airliner crashing into the Pentagon seriously. So far, all I see is evidence which proves that no airliner crashed there... or in Shanksville.

[edit on 2/11/10 by without_prejudice]

reply to post by dereks

No one here knows if they were passengers or Pentagon staff. But as this destroys the silly "truther" conspiracy theory that flight 77 did not crash into the Pentagon, so you do anything to try and not admit your silly conspiracy theory is destroyed!

As to the seat, I showed a link to where a first responder saw a body in the seat, but you ignore that also as it totally destroys your silly conspiracy theory!

Under what concept of logic does not knowing something one way or the other determine that one side of an argument "wins" or the other is disproven?

Posting a link to a tale of someone who saw a body in a seat isn't really on topic, because the OP is about what the photos show, not what people said they saw. After all, your denier buddies proved that eyewitness accounts are unreliable, by posting a list of 100 accounts of the attack, most of which contradict each other. Or does the fact that they contradict each other totally destroy our "truther" fantasy land and we're just too (insert your choice of pejorative here) to admit it?

All in all, you are long on dramatics but short on factual argument.

Vaporization temperature of aluminium 294.0 kJ•mol−1
Temperatures used in cremation furnace 1500 – 1800 °F (850 – 970 °C),
Bodies are typically burned for two hours in an enclosed furnace specifically for the purpose of reducing the corpse to ash !

It is absolutely impossible for an airliner the size of a Boeing 757 to almost completely vaporize on impact with the ground at whatever speed at whatever angle ! The OS wants us to believe this happened not once but twice on the same day ! Even if (in the world of fantasy) it was ‘possible’ that this occurred in Shanksville it most certainly did not at the Pentagon ! It is a total impossibility !
Some sort of missile hit the pentagon, Hellfire or Global Hawk take your pick, but no airliner of any type hit that building (Pentagon) and did that damage ! The evidence is there for everyone to see !

problem fixed, mods can remove this.

[edit on 2/11/10 by Lillydale]

Originally posted by GenRadek
ANOK, the Pentagon was not a solid chunk of steel and concrete 100ft thick and can withstand anything except for a "bunker buster" bomb type device.

Ah, you can't even understand my analogy, why should I expect you to understand the physics...

Regardless of the materials involved the physics is the same, I was just using steel and cars to make an example of how it works that I hope was simple enough for you to understand, obviously not.

I'd link you to a good online explanation but you will still fail to understand it so I give up, believe what you want I couldn't care less...

reply to post by Lillydale


I see, so:

1. You claim there was no passenger plane
   
2. As one proof you say there were no passenger bodies
   
3. Someone shows you a photo asserted to be of the body of a passenger
   
4. You say that it was absolutely not a passenger, simply because there were no passengers
   

That is, unfortunately, a reverse circular logic that cannot be allowed as evidence, let alone "Absolute proof".

Sworn testimony, in court, is evidence however. And that evidence asserts (as I understand) that they identified all but one of the bodies from the plane and all but 4 of the bodies from the Pentagon staff.

Originally posted by rnaa
reply to post by Lillydale

 

I see, so:

1. You claim there was no passenger plane
   
2. As one proof you say there were no passenger bodies
   
3. Someone shows you a photo asserted to be of the body of a passenger
   
4. You say that it was absolutely not a passenger, simply because there were no passengers
   

That is, unfortunately, a reverse circular logic that cannot be allowed as evidence, let alone "Absolute proof".

Actually not it is not circular at all. You do not understand.

1. There was no passenger jet.
2. A picture of a body is claimed to be from a jet that was completely destroyed in a collision - this is hard to believe especially since there was no proof of thejet.
3. The picture does not claim to be of a passenger body.
4. There is no reason to believe it is the body of a passenger.
5. Why do I need to explain this to you?

Nothing circular. It is a complete and perfect straight line. There is no proof that picture is of a passenger body. If the OS about what happened is to be believed, then there is NO WAY IT CAN BE A PASSENGER BODY. You cannot have it both ways. You cannot hope to find bodies from a plane you claim was vaporized in a crash.

Why should we believe that picture is from someone on a plane that you have yet to prove crashed there? Where is the circle here?

Sworn testimony, in court, is evidence however. And that evidence asserts (as I understand) that they identified all but one of the bodies from the plane and all but 4 of the bodies from the Pentagon staff.

They claimed to do that through the DNA collected, not bodies found. Do you honestly think they had family members come down and identify bodies from that incident?

Talk about missing logic.

reply to post by rnaa


Let me try and make it easy for you.

Whether the OS is true or not, there is NO REASON to assume any of those photos of complete human bodies are from the airplane. According to the story, the plane was destroyed and there was a huge explosion. There were people near the explosion in the building as well as people on the plane. The plane was destroyed and you found some burned bodies. What is the most logical place those bodies would have come from? Please explain.

[edit on 11-2-2010 by downisreallyup]

reply to post by Lillydale

Evidence of what? Evidence that you believe people can be found that were inside a plane that was turned to dust?

Sworn evidence entered into the legal record. Supporting evidence given, under oath, in a legal hearing. To the extent that such evidence is public record, the details can be published. I do not believe this photo should have been published.

The plane wasn't turned to dust. It was ripped to shred's, the burnable part was burned, and the building collapsed onto the top of it. What makes you think it was turned to dust.

Please explain to us all which laws of physics would allow this plane to be completely pulverized along with everything inside of it - save 3 human bodies. How did 3 bodies not get pulverized along with the plane they were riding in and everything else that was inside with them?

Please explain this to me.

Newton's physics mostly. You have to define "pulverized". Do you mean that everything was reduced to a fine powder (because it wasn't). Or was it just torn to shreds, then the burnable bits burned, then the building collapsed on top of what was left?

You also might want to recheck derek's actual claim. He said they are picture of passenger bodies AS WELL AS PICTURES OF SEATS.

The published photo, linked in an earlier post, the one that I am complaining about being disrespectful to both the victim and his family, looks to for all the world like he is sitting in the burned out frame of a business class seat. I can't prove it, but that is what it looks like. Can you prove it isn't?

There are newspaper reports (USA Today) of passengers still strapped in their seats. They reported that:

“When [Army Sergeant Mark] Williams discovered the scorched bodies of several airline passengers, they were still strapped in their seats.”

Look, I wasn't there. I didn't see it. I don't have photo's of it. Did Williams or anyone else take photos of that specific find? Maybe not, or maybe the photos haven't been published for some straightforward reason. Never the less, there is no reason to expect the destruction was absolute.

What would 'still strapped into their seats look like anyway? Wouldn't the straps have perished in the fire along with the fabric from the seats? So we would be talking about a metal frame with a body in it with a buckle on its lap. Of course the building collapse would disturb that 'perfect' scenario a bit as would the fire fighting efforts.

Some of the photo's of the bodies are pretty damn horrific. Does it really matter if they are in their seats? 64 of 65 passengers were positively identified from DNA results. The passengers died there.

There are no pictures of seats. So...if part A was a lie and part B was a lie...what do you suppose the chances that A + B = TRUE?

There don't seem to be conclusive photos of seats available on the web using a google search. The linked photo is inconclusive. To me it looks like a possible Business Class seat, but I could be wrong. That certainly does not equate to non-existent, and that means is not a lie, it is just an unsubstantiated claim.

If part A was about the plane turning to dust, it didn't so part 'A' is not a lie.

If part B was about photos of seats, then that is unsubstantiated by the evidence in front of us.

So the chances of (A + B = TRUE) is at minimum 50%.

reply to post by Lillydale


This, as you know because I have posted it before, is a picture of a part body, terribly burnt, recovered from the Pentagon. :-

www.vaed.uscourts.gov...

Please tell me how you know it is not a picture of a passenger from AA 77.

If you say it is because you don't believe AA 77 crashed at the Pentagon then you are simply taking a position without properly considering all the evidence. Not a way to the truth of anything.

reply to post by Lillydale

Originally posted by dereks
So where did I mention pictures of seats there?

LOL, really? This is your game. Whatever. So you admit there ARE NO PICTURES OF PASSENGER BODY PARTS OR PICTURES OF SEATS THEN?

This is a simple YES OR NO.

Its quite simple, Lilydale:

1. Dereks quoted an Army Sergeant, one of the first on the scene, who reported seeing bodies strapped to their seats.
   
2. Dereks did not imply that photos taken of Williams find are available.
   
3. Dereks did not imply that photos of airplane seats are available.
   
4. Dereks provided links to photos of bodies found
   
5. Dereks did not imply that those photos were of Williams find.
   
6. Dereks linked to a diagram showing where bodies were located.
   
7. Dereks never once claimed to have photos of passengers in seats or even seats.
   

It is just silly to complain about something that isn't there, especially when you don't bother to read the post in question.