Supporters of 911-Official Story: Explain your method of rationalizing those things that are ignored

Originally posted by thedman
As for "Not getting hit" - what do call having WTC 1 falling on it?

South side of WTC 7 was slashed open and fires started on multiple floors

Excerpt: Summary of World Trade Center Building 7 Emergency Response.

• The building had sustained damage from debris falling into the building, and they were not sure about the structural stability of the building.

• The building had large fires burning on at least six floors [fires were visible on at least 16 floors]. Any one of these six fires would have been considered a large incident during normal FDNY operations.

• There was no water immediately available for fighting the fires.

• They didn’t have equipment, hose, standpipe kits, tools, and enough handie talkies for conducting operations inside the building.

At approximately, 2:30 p.m., FDNY officers decided to completely abandon WTC 7, and the final order was given to evacuate the site around the building. The order terminated the ongoing rescue operations at WTC 6 and on the rubble pile of WTC 1. Firefighters and other emergency responders were withdrawn from the WTC 7 area, and the building continued to burn. At approximately 5:20 p.m., some three hours after WTC 7 was abandoned the building experienced a catastrophic failure and collapsed.

Even NIST had to admit: “while debris impact from the collapse of WTC 1 initiated fires in WTC 7, the resulting structural damage had little effect in causing the collapse of WTC 7.”

This account from an emergency first responder (DART team member) suggests that information about the condition of the buildings was being manipulated on the day.

They said to us that we had to pull back, at about 4.30, saying that 7 was gonna fall. But we could see 7 from where we were standing, and I could see on the, on the South East corner, maybe 30 stories up, some smoke involving probably 2 floors just on the far corner - smoke coming from the building. Structurally that building was erect, it was fine you know. It had some holes in it, you know, but nothing that was structurally compromising its overall integrity. And yet like clockwork, they pull us back, and 45 minutes later the thing falls, in place.
I personally deployed the Army Corps. of Engineers because that had no job. They had their instruments available, their ??? etc. and I asked them if they could deploy on the surrounding buildings because we were in fear that those buildings weren't stable. I told the Mayor's office that we were doing 15 minute intervals of monitoring those structures. The Mayor's emergency manager didn't even concern themselves with that - despite the fact that several times we were all told that we had to run for our lives. 3 or 4 thousand workers, run for our lives because there was an imminent threat of one of the adjacent apartment buildings collapsing. Once we put the instruments on, we knew for a fact that that wasn't the case, but they refused to disseminate that information to the rest of the workers on the site - and out to the public, that should've known, that should've been told, that those that were working on the ground, were safe from other buildings collapsing, because it was clear that we had established that they were not fluctuating and they were structurally sound. They didn't disseminate that. Why? I don't know why. Did they want to keep us afraid of an imminent threat of additional collapse of other buildings? I don't understand. I don't understand!

[edit on 7-2-2010 by EvilAxis]

in response to this thread i must say


the threads question is a pretty much impossible one to answer in my opinion


when looking at things logically and/or scientifically, there is too much involved surrounding this circumstance that defies logic on this day

from evidence, lack of evidence, to personal quotes and statements made on record, there is simply no logical way to rationalize this belief

the following are the points that i think are the main irrefutable points that defies logic when people try to defend the official story


1. the quote on television by the owner of the wtc stating they decided to "pull it"

2. the fact that not only did the towers collapse at the speed of free fall, but the fact they all fell relatively the same way (you simply dont have something like that happen 3 times within hours of each other when its never happened before in history, and there have been fires in skyscrapers before)

3. the fact that we know, an uncontrolled, open air fire like the ones in the wtc's on this day can not scientifically burn hot enough to melt steel, sure they could have collapsed solely because they were weakened from the heat, if they were only weakened, and collapsed from stress points, that would be acceptable, however, there are eyewitness reports, and thermal imaging showing molten metal in the rubble of the wtc, open fires can not create molten metal, not to mention if it collapsed due to a weakened structure, one part would have gone before the rest, not allowing it to fall at the free fall speed at which it did

4, the simple fact the government will not release information that could put certain aspects of this debate to rest. Namely the video footage taken into custody showing the events at the pentagon, and the fact the only footage that has been released, has been proven to have at LEAST one missing frame

5. the fact that pictures of the pentagon after the impact before the rest of it collapsed, showing only the impact hole, does not match the scale of damage or pattern of damage that would coincide with what we are told happened, also the fact that one only has to do an internet search for pictures of other plane crash sites, where there is CLEARLY much more visible plain debris then the few pieces that were scattered along the pentagon, to disintegrate into almost thin air leaving behind relatively few remnants is just not believable in my opinion, planes crashing into mountains and all kinds of things dont just disappear to that extent

where were all the bodies of those from the plane that hit the pentagon, they just vaporized, ive seen graphic plane crash images and sure the bodies are mangled but they are just blasted to nothing, and even if these fragile bodies were, what about the rest of the stuff, thats a heavy airplane with a lot of stuff, from what we see, there is a lot that just disappeared



to me trying to ignore those subjects make this whole belief completely illogical, and if those believing the official story can not at least question those circumstances then they simply have closed minds





it is not safe to say bush or the government did it, it is not safe to make speculation, it is not safe to look at the facts and not ask questions when things dont make sense

until investigation is done, the bush bashing should stop, its get no one anywhere even if it ends up being he was the mastermind, shouting so now, will get no one anywhere, the speculation about what hit the pentagon gets you no where

the speculation regarding what happened to any planes gets you nowhere


what will get people somewhere is by asking legit questions that cant be ignored

the ones above are just a few that i believe are irrefutable situations and the only way to even consider refuting them, is with speculation, those are things we should have solid answers tp, or investigations on, and if someone doesnt agree with that, personally i believe they either have a fully closed mind, or they have alternative agendas

Originally posted by Dramey
1. the quote on television by the owner of the wtc stating they decided to "pull it"

That was pull the fire fighting team out...

2. the fact that not only did the towers collapse at the speed of free fall,

No they did not, www.debunking911.com...
You really shouldnt nelieve anything a conspiracy theory site says, they are full of lies!

but the fact they all fell relatively the same way

They fell as expected - how did you expect them to fall?

3. the fact that we know, an uncontrolled, open air fire like the ones in the wtc's on this day can not scientifically burn hot enough to melt steel

Who said that they melted steel?

imaging showing molten metal in the rubble of the wtc, open fires can not create molten metal,

yes they can - exactly what metal was that?

not to mention if it collapsed due to a weakened structure, one part would have gone before the rest,

No, it fell as expected

not allowing it to fall at the free fall speed at which it did

No, as shown above they did not fall at free fall speed

and the fact the only footage that has been released, has been proven to have at LEAST one missing frame

What makes you think that?

5. the fact that pictures of the pentagon after the impact before the rest of it collapsed, showing only the impact hole, does not match the scale of damage or pattern of damage that would coincide with what we are told happened,

Yes it did actually, you really should not believe silly conspiracy theory sites

to disintegrate into almost thin air leaving behind relatively few remnants is just not believable in my opinion,

Obviously you have not looked at the pictures showing 757 parts inside the Pentagon

where were all the bodies of those from the plane that hit the pentagon,

www.vaed.uscourts.gov...

but they are just blasted to nothing, and even if these fragile bodies were, what about the rest of the stuff, thats a heavy airplane with a lot of stuff, from what we see, there is a lot that just disappeared

Pictures of bodies and 757 parts inside the pentagon here
www.vaed.uscourts.gov...

reply to post by dereks

I completely disagree with every remark you made on your post towards Dramey.

Every single one of your response was nothing more than your “opinions” and lack of any real facts and “credible sources”.

No they did not, www.debunking911.com...
You really shouldnt nelieve anything a conspiracy theory site says, they are full of lies!

Yes, like the one that you just displayed! It is a proven “propaganda, disinformationist” website, if this is the garbage you support and believe, then I would suggest that you find better reading material.

Debunking911.com; A sophisticated Neocon Propaganda Site Designed To Counteract The 9/11 Truth movem



Originally posted by cashlink
One has to ask who has paid for this professionally put together and very sophisticated yet transparently propagandising website. Only dedicated neoconservatives with a political agenda of trying to prevent the truth of the events of 9/11 being exposed would go to such great lengths as producing such an obvious propaganda website. One can only assume that those seeking the truth must be on to something for the neocons to put this much effort into trying to prevent the truth from being revealed.

debunking9/11.com is a very sophisticated, extensive and professionally put together website that clearly has had a lot of expensive expertise poured into it. It goes to extraordinary lengths to attempt to debunk the evidence that has presented itself on the internet over the last seven years as an alternative to the US government’s version of the events of 9/11, but – and this is where the site gives itself away – it doesn’t attempt to debunk just some aspects of the new evidence that has been presented, but it tries to debunk every bit of it. It is that characteristic that defines it as a propaganda site rather than a site that is scientifically objective with its arguments.

lataan.blogspot.com...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

DEBUNKING911.COM; A SOPHISTICATED NEOCON PROPAGANDA SITE DESIGNED TO COUNTERACT THE 9/11 TRUTH MOVEMENT


One has to ask who has paid for this professionally put together and very sophisticated yet transparently propagandising website. Only dedicated neoconservatives with a political agenda of trying to prevent the truth of the events of 9/11 being exposed would go to such great lengths as producing such an obvious propaganda website. One can only assume that those seeking the truth must be on to something for the neocons to put this much effort into trying to prevent the truth from being revealed.

lataan.blogspot.com...

I would be embarrassed to put that website as my sources.

Pictures of bodies and 757 parts inside the pentagon here
www.vaed.uscourts.gov...

No, I didn’t see any, I went threw every photo on this website and there are no photos of any body bags, there are no photos of airplane seats, and there are no photos of any dead passengers, or any photos of Boeing 757 undercarriage.

If I have missed them, why don’t you post the photos from this website? Would that be asking too much?

I assume you would have done this already, since you are so eager to prove all Truthers cannot tell the truth.






[edit on 8-2-2010 by impressme]

Originally posted by dereks
That was pull the fire fighting team out...

The fire fighters were out of the building before the call.

Who said that they melted steel?

Where did the molten steel come from in videos and photos?

Obviously you have not looked at the pictures showing 757 parts inside the Pentagon

Sorry but they have not been proven to be 757 parts belonging to AA77.



[edit on 8-2-2010 by REMISNE]

reply to post by richierich

People whose world would be shattered if they accepted that the very highest level of those in control are mudering bastards or willing to ignore same cannot face the truth; to accept the truth would mean that they would be unable to work...sleep...eat...function....they would feel overwhelmed because in their minds the government, the structure of the system, must be trustworthy...it simply must.
.....
They would actually prefer to believe that the laws of physics really WERE violated on 9-11 and for some good reason which no doubt the powers that be know about but are unwilling to share. They will believe anything but thwe truth: The truth would undermine their whole image of security and that means they will swallow any story the government puts out. Hell, the majority of Americans are like that, God help us.

After seeing the reaction from almost all of my friends and family when I state that there is something very wrong with the OS-911, I have had these thoughts exactly (for those with some level of education). Very well put.

I would like to add a few additional observations:
1) Many people simply do not care, and cannot be troubled to consider the implications of OS-911 being a lie.
2) Many don't look at the world beyond what is right in front of them.
3) Many don't know what the subject of physics means (e.g. "is it like psychic or somethin'"). Their concept of how the mechanical world works is extremely limited.
4) Many people were not taught critical thinking, logic, philosophy, classic literature, civics/government; due to the breakdown of our education system.

In my opinion, it all adds up to the sad fact that the pied-pipers of future false flag events will continue to lead us down the road to perpetual war and eventual ruin.

dereks,

I put you on ignore. You are either paid to spout of lies, or even worse, don't use your brain.

reply to post by impressme


Here is a story from less than 2 weeks from 9/11. It explains about the bodies that are supposedly not there.

www.post-gazette.com...

I would think that a coroner is enough. Give him a call if you feel like it. Fact is there is nothing to rationalize when it is truth. It seems that you are always the one who is trying to 'fit' part of one quote to prove another.

reply to post by impressme


All you did was insult a debunking site, then link to a conspiracy site, while claiming all he did was voice his opinion without any credible facts and evidence. Nice

No, I didn’t see any, I went threw every photo on this website and there are no photos of any body bags, there are no photos of airplane seats, and there are no photos of any dead passengers, or any photos of Boeing 757 undercarriage.

If I have missed them, why don’t you post the photos from this website? Would that be asking too much?

I assume you would have done this already, since you are so eager to prove all Truthers cannot tell the truth.

I found these two, just by searching for the word "body".

www.vaed.uscourts.gov...

www.vaed.uscourts.gov...

I'm sure you looked through the entire site though, I can't see a truther saying something that is entirely false.

Originally posted by impressme
Where are the OS believer? Why aren’t they posting in this thread, this is a good opportunity for them to talk about their side of the OS and why we are all wrong.

Here is their chance and they don’t want it.
This tells me they are in here to just spread disinformation and railroad the truth.

I know the OS is a lie, I do not have the answers to what really happened, but common sense, and science, tells me our government lied about 911.

OK I'll have a go

Basic facts NT hit first, ST hit second but lower down
Planes hit buildings not holograms not rockets.

ST fell first although it was hit second WHY heres why hit lower down each floor weighed over 1500 TONS the load above impact area
was over 40,000 TONS

Load above impact was over 40,000 Tons damaged to steel structure
due to impact and HEAT from fire, the steel didn't melt but was weakend this resulted in failure.

It is known that structural steel begins to soften around 425°C and loses about half of its strength at 650°C

Also if steel in one area is cooler than steel in another you have the problem of stress loading due to temperature difference.

The Floors above the impact area fell as one unit if you dont believe me look at this

www.oilempire.us...

Notice as well how it falls to the side, reason that side took the impact more damage in that area so it fell that way.
You can also see in that picture the NT fire still burning away nice orange flames.

Thats a quick start I await your comments.

Originally posted by wmd_2008
Notice as well how it falls to the side, reason that side took the impact more damage in that area so it fell that way.

Funny though how the upper section started to fall to the side but then stopped and collapsed straight down.

The only people who believe the Official lie are those who psychologically CANNOT allow their social foundations to be blasted out from under them like all the core structures did that day; it would undermine their worldview to the point that fright would take over and render them useless. They know this subcomciously and the mind in many cases blocks out logic and fact from becoming a finalized conclusion because to do so would cause the typical believer such trauma that they could not function.

It would consume them...they would be unable to concentrate on anything else because KNOWINg that even the very top officials...the people who are ultimately responsible for our individual and collective safety and security, are murderers, traitors, and in some cases, worse.

It would seem hopeless..many personalities remember will not automatically click into a fight or flight mode; many will curl up and suck their thumbs and pray for momma to rescue them. Others are simply unable to face another day after the realization sets in....after all, it MEANS something. when your highest officials are either unwilling to stop the bad actors or are a part of them!!

The acceptance of the truth...that elements of the government along with intelligence assets and foreign players, pulled off a false flag event to fulfill the PNAC plan to the letter, is provable to any rational and fair minded viewer. There cannot be hundreds of ' inexplicable anomalies' associated with any event that the government tries to call a closed case with flimsy and insulting ' evidence' as justification.

The 9-11 events are OBVIOUS demolitions...so much so that only complete denial can cover up the truth....thats the way these guys play...by proven means that get results: Tell them that they should believe the government rather than their lying eyes!!

Just because a photograph shows a building exploding up hundreds of feet into the air and turning to a pulverized dust, along with people and virtually everything else, doesn't mean anything...trust us!! All of the signs of controlled demo? Take no notice,,,coincidence!!! And just because huge, thick steel core members turn to dust on film...hey, a plane hit the building, right?

The paragraph above shows how a believer of the OS thinks...they MUST put logical processes on hold and accept ANY answer that makes the person feel they can face another day and concentrate on work..many people prefer the matrix because it is at least structured in a way that lets people know that the people at the top know they exists and will keep them alive as long as possible for productive reasons...and that is enough.

Sad, isn't it? For many of us it is hard to understand how anyone could ignore the obvious, but these poor souls are protecing their psyche's as best they can, and those of us able to handle the truth will have to just keep trying to break thru the fog with them and hope that one day the light clicks on.

The blatant omission, by said Commission, is their admission to...not innocent! (didn't mean to rhyme) And for that ALONE, another investigation should be mandatory but somehow, our laws don't seem to apply to everyone!

reply to post by Whyhi

These bodies are Pentacon workers,notice debris on top of their sorry remains.
Bodies of alleged airline passengers are the things missing.And airliner debris all over,not a coupola bits from the scrapyard.

Well, you know from my previous posts on this thread where I stand pretty much. I have been giving this a lot of thought and have a few additional insights to the OP's questions.

If you would have asked me, or just about anyone I know, a short time ago to explain the anomalies in the OS, my response would have been, what anomalies? That is pretty telling alone.

Also, my first exposure to the anomalies was at a gun show when this dude was passing out leaflets explaining how no Jews died on 9/11. It was a weird presentation without any really good support. Nothing really thought provoking in his appearance or pamplhet.

I only started searching out good alternative stories to the OS while I was bored one night sitting at the computer. Again, also telling. I didn't expect much beyond mere entertainment. I got hooked and am still reading now knowing that this is more serious than just some anti-semitic kooks.

My first thought when researching this is, what is the purpose for saying the OS was bunk? Again, I don't think I am alone in this thought process.

So, bottom-line: I think most don't or have only recently realized that there is a serious side to the alternate explanations to the OS. First impressions are significant. If the first exposure is like mine, I can see how many discard it, and just say, "kooks."

Content delivery is everything these days with so much info floating out there. Anyway, that is my continued attempt to answer the OP. I have really enjoyed this thread. It asks a great question which is why do you believe what you believe. I think we should all stop and ask ourselves that question from time to time. We may reach different conclusions, but at least we are listening and thinking. Kudos to the OP.

Originally posted by Zerbst


I'm curious of the mechanics regarding that method?

I find myself on quite the opposite side of your thinking. I'm curious of the mechanics regarding the method as to why you wouldn’t believe it. Now I know that I am a newbie, but I saw that Nat Geo show and that has what caused me to start looking into myself. I read several of the threads that are posted here and all of them keep saying that they have the "proof" that it was an inside job, but I have yet to find anything that has even made me second guess anything. I'm fairly certain that there are not telling the whole truth. But I don't believe that what there not telling us, has absolutely nothing to do with how the events of that day took place. So Building 7 was a controlled demolition, who cares. Building 7 wasn't hit by a plane. How do the two tie together? To cover the evidence? Floor 23 was the Mayors Emergency bunker. He didn’t use it when it was needed and I say good for him, his City was being attacked and he didn't run and hide, he was out there with his citizens trying to help. I just don’t see the relevance if building 7 was brought down. It doesn't change the fact that at least 3 planes were high jacked that day, you cant deny that, can you? I know that there are some that think that there weren't any planes at all. But that theory is well, pretty far fetched if I may say so. As far as the Pentagon, why would they go so far as to fly two planes in to the Towers, but when it came to the Pentagon fake it being a plane and use a missile or a drone or what ever. So there is lack of debris, and the hole is to small right? But nothing like this has ever happened before. We don’t know what it's supposed to look like. The Pentagon wasn't built to withstand a projectile impact of any kind, nor was a 757 built to hold up to any type of impact much less a three layers of concrete and steel reinforcement. I have no way of providing you with any proof, but you don't have any either. Everything at this point it a matter of opinion. I'm open to the fact that it might have been an inside job, but so far I have not read or seen anything that is convincing enough to change my mind.

You said that wouldn't believe the OS until all aspects of it have been proved. Why? Do you feel that way with everything that happens in your life? I'm just curious.

reply to post by Whyhi

I found these two, just by searching for the word "body".

www.vaed.uscourts.gov...

www.vaed.uscourts.gov...

Those photos have been debunked years ago those bodies are not of the passenger.
The two bodies are of military personnel; look at the “uniform” they are wearing.

So, if anyone can show photos of passengers’ bodies from the pentagon crash, I would love to see them.

All you did was insult a debunking site, then link to a conspiracy site, while claiming all he did was voice his opinion without any credible facts and evidence. Nice

Those photos are bodies of whom? The poster that I was responding to was not being honest and my sources prove it.

BTW, we are in here to discuses the truth and opinions are not facts.

I'm sure you looked through the entire site though, I can't see a truther saying something that is entirely false.

Why should I lie? I am only searching for the truth, and G-d knows how much the OS has already been proven a lie. Why would anyone support such nonsense don’t you agree?

Are you suggesting that Truth =Lies and all Truthers are lairs? If so, what are Lairs? Where is the logic in this?






[edit on 9-2-2010 by impressme]

reply to post by richierich



Well I dont quite agree with you as being a structural steelwork draughtsman and having 30 yrs in the construction industry I have a better idea than most re building and costruction.
Unlike THE MINORITY of people I dont get carried away with the BS that conspiracy believers latch onto because they dont actually know what they are talking about.
They see something posted on a site think that it can be true and thats it their convinced.
Most engineers LAUGH at this type of thread when they see how the ordinary man in the street suddenly becomes a demolition/structural engineer because they read some LOONIE site someone has on the net.

reply to post by REMISNE


Well as the steelwork at the other side of the building was less damaged that could have provide just enough resistance to stop the topple also if you look at some of the videos of the start of the collapse that whole section drops.

Link to a video from about 2:00 in you see a close up of the collapse
upper part drops rotates slightly then area below impact starts to give way due to the load the upper part drops almost straight.

www.youtube.com...

I think the OP contains several false premises.

First, I don't really think there's such thing as an "OS". Instead there's a patchwork of different narratives from different agencies and individuals which go some way towards trying to explain what happened. Half the time they are also trying to exonerate themselves, or have differing opinions, so they naturally don't always agree.

There is no "OS" that you can pore over in the library and peruse for errors. And by pretending there is you are betraying your desire for conspiracy, because you are purposely creating a straw man that must conform to an unreasonable standard of evidence. Indeed it's telling that you don't hold yourself up to such standards.


Second, the demand for "proof" in order to reach something nebulous called "the truth" is an unreasonable one. Or at least unrealistic.

Let's say you drove to work this morning. What colour was the first car you saw pass you on the road? It's unlikely that you can remember. And yet you are asking the "OS" to provide you with concrete, unimpeachable "fact" about its every facet. That's simply impossible, especially as we're discussing an incredibly complex series of events. Indeed, it's arguably impossible to provide real "proof" of anything. All one can do is try to construct a model of what happened and then trust to judgement.

This is what I hope I've done and, on balance, I've never seen anything here or elsewhere that persuades me that the WTC buildings were not brought down by fires caused by planes crashing into them; or that there's no plane at Shanksville, or the Pentagon; or that the phone calls from 93 were faked; or that there were secondary explosions at the WTC.