Kabbala witchcraft of the rich and powerful???

I doubt you could get any sixteen witches/sorcerers to agree on much of anything beyond the basics (which is why your average coven numbers roughly 10 people and does not meet in a grand meeting hall like the Baptists do.)

Quite true. It's a common saying in pagan circles that organizing pagans is like herding cats.

i must say that for people who aparently read the bible so often, i doubt that you understand what you are reading entirely. Unless you understand ancient greek, you cannot possibly understand what the bible states as there is much lost in translation. Even in the lords prayer that i hear in every church is wrong, because there is at least one line in there that everyone says wrong because whoever translated the bible into english translated it wrong.
Just so you know, it's not "and deliver us from evil", because that is vague. It really is "and deiver us from the evil one" stating satan, etc. I can come up with more, but perhaps you should purchase the ORthodox study bible, since it explains a lot of the bible verses that everyone loves to quote so at least they have an understanding of what is being said

All these posts and information and stuff and yet nobody posted a link to 'THE' Kabbala Site on the net. So here ya go, my gift from me to all of you!

Welcome to Kabbalah Centre!

Imagine if there was a miraculous source of power so profound, so powerful, it could totally heal and transform your life and genuinely change our world for the good -- forever!

Ummmmm.......Ok??? I wonder just who's chart of Good vs. Bad they're talking about here??? Cause all the other times I've heard people shout slogans like this it didn't work too well, if ya know what I mean???

There is. It is called Kabbalah, and it is the oldest, most influential wisdom in all of human history.

Kabbalah reveals all the spiritual and physical laws that govern the cosmos and the human soul. It answers questions.

Kabbalah provides solutions.
Kabbalah unravels puzzles.
Kabbalah deciphers codes.
Kabbalah gives you practical tools to effect change.
Kabbalah creates order out of chaos.

And if that isn't enough, Kabbalah answers the ultimate question of human existence.

"Laws that govern the cosmos and the human soul.
Yikes!! Scared yet?

"Order out of Chaos", huh?!?!? That sounds familiar, doesn't it!

No, this is NO JOKE. Here is the link.
www.kabbalah.com...-source


EDIT: Just thought I would throw this in here as well. I was just thinking about how different symbols can be written as both 2D & 3D and depending upon how you choose to view it, it can sometimes change. I have a little .gif below as an example of how the Kabbalists can possibly be located by changing your perspective when looking at things. All from rotating an 'Icosahedron', one of the larger & more complex Platonic Solids.






[Edited on 1-6-2004 by mOjOm]

You know, anything can be twisted to evil purposes or to appear as evil (here's an example: lcamtuf.coredump.cx...). Yes, it's true that some people have found answers in Kabbalah, and yes, there are those that believe it explains the laws of the universe. However, considering that consorting with demons and the like is considered antitheical to the spiritual process in Kabbalah, the .gif with "666" transposed upon the Platonic solids is downright silly and inapplicable. The idea that you can "find" Kabbalists via Platonic solids is hilarious, as the solids are everywhere, even down to the microscopic level!

Originally posted by Hecate100
However, considering that consorting with demons and the like is considered antitheical to the spiritual process in Kabbalah, the .gif with "666" transposed upon the Platonic solids is downright silly and inapplicable. The idea that you can "find" Kabbalists via Platonic solids is hilarious, as the solids are everywhere, even down to the microscopic level!

WHAT??? What do you mean that .gif is 'silly'!! Try lookin' at it again.
This time REALLY REALLY LOOK DEEP INTO IT....While murmuring:
'Gimel, Vav, Vav, Tet, ZAYIN!!'....'Gimel, Vav, Vav, Tet, ZAYIN!!' 'ALEPH!!'
Now, repeat after me: "I AM SOFA KING RITA TED" (just keep saying that over and over. There is a hidden message there if you just listen closely to the sound of you saying it, rather than the actual words!! Seriously too, there is a hidden message. It will make you smile when you realize what it is too. I know because it is Kabbala Magick!!!)

I'm only joking around with ya. My little .gif was really just me goofin' around, although there is some wisdom that can be found within' it. As all symbols it is simply trying to represent another idea or message. That message being that Things, Especially 'Symbols' themselves which includes even the vast collections of language both ancient and modern, can and many times do have more information within' them than at first glance or properly read. Sometimes to find 'Meaning' within' things that aren't obvious at first, we need to 'Look Around, Through & Within' in order to 'See or Hear' something new and learn new things. So you see, the message of the 'GYPH' wasn't exactly so much of a Literal Translation but more of a Fortune Cookie. Goofy and twisted on the outside but with something more profound within.

I am aware of the fact that the whole 666 Beast kinda thing doesn't coinside with Jewish Kabbala, or even the OT for that matter. But it made for a nice attention grabber didn't it??

Besides, I don't think I'm ready to present my report on Kabbalist Alphabet Matrix Patters and how they include Musical Harmonics, Multiple Number Theories, Prime Patterns, Codes, Universal Symmetry, and so forth. That is going to take a bit more time. So I thought I'd just get ya warmed up with my "KABBALA MAGICK" for starters. BTW, have you found the hidden message yet??

What about sorcery? In the bible??? If you read the OT and NT it cant but stirke you what they are on about! What is a WIZARD? And what is the difference between that and what you practise Hecate?? So you say the word "witch" was changed to poisioner? WHat about the words wizard and socerier?

In the OT :

Isa 8:19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?

I wont quote anymore of the bible but I would like to mention one thing. If you look at Moses in Egypt and the miracles he performed. The Egyptian sorcerers could also peform some of the same miracles. Where did they get that power from? This story is a direct confrontation between the Hebrew God and the Egyptian Gods. So who was producing this magic for the Egyptians ??? They could turn water into blood and make snakes appear. Now if the *REAL* true God of Creation is with Moses, and the biblical view is correct and there exists an enemy of God and us called Satan, wasnt he the provider of the Egyptians power? Who else would be in direct confrontation with God?

If you are using spirits and casting spells to have influence over other people then that IS wrong in my opinon. You can do whatever you want to do , but I still have the right to share my opinon.

As I said I started this topic with the source being a Christian women who supposedly deals with such things. Out of interest I wanted your opinons.
I havent found any hard evidence of Kabbala being involved with SRA but because of other things that were mentioned by this lady, which are beyond doubt I thought I would at least raise this.

IMHO magic and witchcraft does exist. Innocent people have been murdered under the charge of wichcraft, sometimes Christians have been murdered by the Church for being witchs. All the evil from the church and false persecution aside, I still believe it is possible to contact spirits and use them to your will, cast spells over people, and even utilize the power of nature. This however in my humble opinon is evil and wrong.

Let�s be realistic here. This is the 21st century, and I think the days of the �Witch Finder General� are just about over with. If your crops go bad, chances are that it�s the result of a drought or poor fertilization or low soil PH balance, instead of witchcraft!
The Bible uses words like �witch�, �sorcery�, etc., as interchangeable terms, NOT talking about people casting hexes on our livestock, but, as the lady mentioned to you, was referring to �poisoners�.
This was what was called �black magic�. Witches, in reality, were the world�s first pharmacists. They learned the properties of herbs and plants, and would brew medicines in their cauldrons (thus the term �witchdoctor�). But a �black magic witch�would also concoct a poisonous brew for a price, which was the basis for many assasinations, using hemlock, toadstools, nightshade, and other poisonous products. This is a lot different from the �good witchcraft�, which evolved into the medical profession.
But, anyway, the Kabalah really has nothing to do with any of this. The Kabalah is a school of philosophy and body of divinity.

[Edited on 1-6-2004 by Masonic Light]

Originally posted by Masonic Light
But, anyway, the Kabalah really has nothing to do with any of this. The Kabalah is a school of philosophy and body of divinity.

[Edited on 1-6-2004 by Masonic Light]

Well, it sounded good up until here IMO. 'Nothing to do with any of this?' Oh, come now.

A School of philosophy and body of divinity, huh? That's a different way of putting it, especially with the body of divinity part. That makes for one hell of spread of possibilities don't ya think? Unless of course you just mean a organization devoted to the study of those things of supposed 'Divine Nature', 'God's Works' and so forth. In other words Theology, Philosophy, Alchemy, Chemistry, Astrology, Mathematics, Music, Nature, Language, etc., etc., etc......add essentially the study of about every categorized form of Scientific/Metaphysic area you can think of under those terms for that time that would be worth time studying, and you'd be getting closer I think.

Kabbala, like any and all 'Similar' Arts/Practices/Systems of Knowledge or whatever name you find comfortable in probably the best term should be thought of as, 'A study and practice of a Universal Truth or Unified Theory of Everything, both Divine in Nature or otherwise and the Symmetry which unites them.' Or something along those lines. It is a combination of most all Religious, Philosophical, Ancient Science, or perhaps in a more simple term 'GNOSTIC' materials and knowledge. The idea was to understand and even use the same Divine & Creative Transcendent Methods of God.

Kabbala specifically of course tied more heavily within the Jewish Culture and Literature and so forth, but was not limited entirely to it by any means. It essentially, IMO anyway, was the same as the whole of Gnostic Study, only without the complete freedom as the True Gnostic's would have been. All study of Magick or Divine Arts & so forth are really all the same in what they are in pursuit of Knowing. They just have their own individual methods and languages and things in doing so.

So, anyway....Saying Kabbala is just philosophy or whatever is kinda like saying Pacific Ocean is a decent Fishin' Hole. I of course am not saying that it's 'Evil' Devil Worship, & Baby Sacrifices by Dark Hooded Druids on the Full Moon or anything like that. In fact, IMO, such descriptions could be applied to MANY, MANY groups from all walks of life anyway. I am saying that Kabbala is one of our oldest 'Documented' versions of the Study & Uses of Ancient Scientific/Philosophical Knowledge and/or Wisdom. (Purpose, I'm sure varied somewhat from Practitioner to Practitioner anyhow.)

Hehehe, mOjOm, that WAS a good joke. Ya got me!

TruthStrgnrThanFiction, while there is something to be said for a simplistic view of things, power is neither good nor evil in and of itself. It's energy. Just as nuclear power is. You can use nuclear energy to keep the lights on in thousands of homes, or you can use it as a weapon to level cities and kill almost everyone in them. But is plutonium evil? What about electricity? The same goes with magic. It is most often used to help and/or heal people, but as with any other form of power -- like political and religious -- it can be twisted to other ends.

And has been pointed out many times in this thread, and not just by me, the word "poisoner" was changed to "witch" for political purposes. Not "witch" TO "poisoner".

For your information, I don't have "familiar spirits". Nor do I cast spells "to have influence over other people". And I've yet to meet a wizard "that "peep"s. You are making false assumptions about me, just as you and Ischyros have done all along with Kabbalah. You are judging and condemning someone (and something) about whom/which you have no real knowledge.

What Moses did was magic, and as he was trained by the same Egyptian priests, it's quite obvious that he was familiar with their techniques and was able to block them. Anyone knowing the basics of magic would come to the same conclusion. You can call some magics "miracles" and others "sorcery", but they all follow the same rules. Power is raised or tapped into and then directed at a goal. Just like firing up a generator to turn on the lights. There's really nothing supernatural about it. You can choose to put all kinds of mystical trappings on the process and start calling it good or evil according to your value system, but it's merely a matter of focussing and directing the energy that surrounds us every day, all the time.

And yes, it's true that Kabbalah has nothing to do with this, as I've been trying to say all along!

Originally posted by mOjOm

A School of philosophy and body of divinity, huh? That's a different way of putting it, especially with the body of divinity part.

How so? The Qabalah�s divinity teachings are the very source of its philosophical doctrines. What makes it a unique system of divinity is its doctrine of divine emanation into the manifested universe, from Ain Soph, through the Sephiroth to Malkuth. It could be argued that the Qabalah is primarily pantheistic, but even pantheists are entitled to divinity.

So, anyway....Saying Kabbala is just philosophy or whatever is kinda like saying Pacific Ocean is a decent Fishin' Hole.

I have to disagree. The word �philosophy�, which literally means �love of wisdom�, is hardly derogatory, and true Philosophy is at one with true Divinity. All of the sciences, including mathematics, psychology, and physics, originated in Philosophy, and the Qabalah certainly qualifies to be classed under philosophical wisdom.

Fiat Lvx.

I agree with Hecate and Masonic Light, here, based on my experiences and reading.

Let me add another piece to the "moses" discussion:

Remember that in those days, most of the population was illiterate, and almost all were superstitious to an extreme degree. Religious officials were aware of this and took advantage of this -- there are statues with special levers and controls (simple ones, really) that would make the god-statue appear to move. People truly believed that the god had come down and was moving the image. It was beyond the experience of most of them to consider fakery.

A number of stage magicians have pointed out that the "miracles" were very similar to a number of modern day stage magic tricks. It's very possible that Moses (palace educated) knew the tricks as well as the priests did and was much better at them.

Masonic Light, I think we are actually more in agreement than you might think. Of course, it also may depend on differences between Quabala, Cabala, Kabballa, or any other version. There seems to be some rouge alternates out there and I am not too sure what all that is about, just in case we ARE talking about two different things. I don't think we are though, at least not for the most part.

I'm not saying it's not Philosophical, by all means it certainly is. Philosophically speaking, you could argue that everything is philosophy I suppose too. When speaking in terms of Religious Ideology, Divinity and so forth, sometimes people get picky and like Theology better. Personally, I don't care as I can adjust to it either way.

Like I said, Kabbala is certainly Philosophy, and in fact is specific in it's translation of certain ideas, even when dealing with Non-Specific Concepts. If you think about it though, no matter what direction or culture decides to study principles of 'Divinity' or 'Unified Laws of the Cosmos' and that sort of thing, along with being able to actually use what is learned, you can't help but eventually realize that ALL METHODS regardless of their contexts or interpretations have no choice but to be directed at understanding the Same Universal Principles. The symbols may change, as well as the deities or something of that nature, possibly in error or whatever, but they are all trying to Know the Same thing. Druid, Pagan, Alchemist, Kabbalist, Indian Mystic, or old Guru....all just different paths with the same destination. Kabbalistic study is very old and very dynamic stuff with a long history.

I said I would do a study on the terms defined as witchcraft, magic, etc. in the Bible, so here it is.

KJV Deuteronomy 18:9-14
9 When thou art come into the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations.
10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination (qasam+qesem), or an observer of times (�anan), or an enchanter (nachash), or a witch (kasap).
11 Or a charmer (chabar+cheber), or a consulter with familiar spirits (�ob), or a wizard (yidde�oni), or a necromancer.
12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the Lord: and because of these abominations the Lord thy God doth drive them out from before thee.
13 Thou shalt be perfect with the Lord thy God.
14 For these nations, which thou shalt possess, hearkened unto observers of times (�anan), and unto diviners (qasam): but as for thee, the Lord thy God hath not suffered thee so to do.

KJV 1 Samuel 15:23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft (qesem), and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the Lord, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

All of the following definitons are from the Hebrew dictionary found in the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible. James Strong, L.L.D., S.T.D. Fully Revised and Corrected by John R. Kohlenberger III and James A. Swanson. Grand Rapids Michigan. Zondervan. 2001

2266 chabar, v. [Q] to join, unite, be attached, to be touching; to cast spells, to enchant; [Qp] to be joined; [P] to fasten, join; [Pu] to be fastened, be closely compacted; [Ht] to make an alliance, become allies; [H] to make fine speeches
2267 cheber, n.[m.]. sharing; band, group; magic spell
3049 yidde�oni, n.m. spiritist, soothsayer
3784 kashap, v.den. [P] to engage in witchcraft, be a sorcerer
3785 keshep, n.m. witchcraft, sorcery, often with the associative meanings of rebellion and seduction into false religion
5172 nachash, v. den. [P] to practice divination, interpret omens and signs
5173 nachash,.n.[m.]. sorcery, magic curse, spell
5175 nachash, n.m. snake, serpent; by extension: a mythological creature of choas opposed to God (I added this one just so you could see that the same word translated as serpent in Genesis ch. 3 may also be translated as magician or sorcerer.
6049 'anan, v. [P] to bring clouds; [Po] to practice sorcery, practice divination, cast spells
7080 qasam, v.den. [Q] to practice divination, be a soothsayer, seek an omen
7081 qesem, n.[m.]. divination: pagan practice of determining the future by examining the position of the stars, communication with the dead or with spirits, examining animal organs, or casting lots

So then, all forms of magic are clearly outlawed by the Torah/Tanakh/Old Testament. Including kabbalah.

REASON FOR EDITING: I tried to add in the Hebrew characters manually, so there would be no doubt as to which words I'm referring to, but that still didn't work. So, I'll spell out which words go along with each number and defintion in my next post. I also changed the spelling of the transliterations of #'s 3784 and 3785 to better reflect that the Hebrew words are spelled kaph-shin-pe/phe, and not kaph-samekh-pe/phe.

[edit on 6-6-2004 by Ischyros]

Since you are determined to twist the truth to your own purposes, allow me to correct you on a few points:

Chabar can have "to enchant" as a definition, but the word is most often used to describe union and being bound together.

Chebar is actually a different word that means "far off". It comes from the name of a Babylonian river by which many Israelites settled.

Yidde�oni means a type of false prophecy.

According to the notes to Job 14 of the NET Bible, "The word kasap originally meant �to turn pale.� It expresses the sentiment that causes pallor of face, and so is used for desire ardently, covet." Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology as found on bible.crosswalk.com... similarly defines kasap as follows: "means to yearn for or to long after". You're way off base with kasap meaning witchcraft.

Again according to Baker's (and other easily located sources), "kesep" is a different word altogether, and means "money". NOT witchcraft.

Nachash literally means "serpent" or "snake". Divination, wizards and omens have nothing to do with the word, unless you start switching terms around. "Black" can be associated with "evil" or "dark", but ultimately it's a color (or lack thereof).

Similarly, anan merely means "cloud" or "cloud-mass".

Qasam DOES mean "practice divination". I'll give you that one, but there is a lot of speculation even among Biblical scholars that the ummin & thummin were divinatory devices.

I think you may have meant "qecem" instead of "qesem". While this also means divination, it can also mean "divine sentence" or "divine decision", as from the mouth of a king.

While I respect the fact that you have strong beliefs, I feel that it is driving you to impose meanings that can only be taken if one stretches the words to their breaking point or associate similar-sounding words with each other. While I acknowledge that this is easy to do, considering the phoenetic nature of Hebrew-to-English translation, it is apparent that you are using some very biased and skewed sources for your research material.

And to top it all off, none of this has anything to do with Kabbalah or its (non-existent) connection with satanic ritual abuse!

[Edited on 5-6-2004 by Hecate100]

I did make an error in my previous post. #'s 3784 and 3785 should be kashap and keshep (in any case both words are spelled kaph-shin-pe). Whether the last letter is pronounced as pe or phe, I'm not certain, as I've never heard the word spoken. I will do an edit in order to remedy this.

Again, it is not Witchcraft that is condemned in the Bible. In fact, the word deliberately mistranslated in "thou shalt not suffer a Witch to live" is actually "poisoner".

KJV Exodus 22:18 Thou shalt not suffer a witch (kashap) to live.

This is the definition I got from the website you posted:

(Piel) to practice witchcraft or sorcery, use witchcraft
sorcerer, sorceress (participle)

bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/OldTestamentHebrew/heb.cgi?search=3784&version=kjv&type=eng

It's almost exactly the same as the definiton I posted earlier.

As to words having different meanings, yes, this is often the case. Therefore we must choose the correct definition based on the context in which we find these words. Obviously, the context of this passage is referring to the use of magic and its prohibition among the Israelites.

I'll spell out which letters make up each of the words I gave definitions for earlier.

2266 chabar (chet-bet-resh)
2267 cheber (chet-bet-resh)
3049 yidde�oni (yod-dalet-ayin-nun-yod)
3784 kashap (kaph-shin-pe/phe)
3785 keshep (kaph-shin-pe/phe)
5172 nachash (nun-chet-shin)
5173 nachash (nun-chet-shin)
5175 nachash (nun-chet-shin)
6049 'anan (ayin-nun-nun)
7080 qasam (qoph-samekh-mem)
7081 qesem (qoph-samekh-mem)

The chebar you referred to is spelled kaph-bet-resh (Strong's ref.# 3529). It is an entirely different word from chebar or cheber and would be better rendered kebar or khebar.

3049 yidde'oni is not specifically related to false prophecy. The root of this word is 3045 yada' (yod-dalet-ayin) which means "to know, recognize, understand", etc. Thus a yidde'oni must be someone who knows forbidden magical secrets. The names Yoda and Jedi are actually derived from this root as well. Yoda would probably be "one who knows", while Jedi/Yedi would be "those who are known", or perhaps just an abbreviation of yidde'oni.

Again, as with kebar, the words you were looking at for kashap (which is partially my fault) are #'s 3700-3702, and are spelled kaph-samekh-pe/phe), while 3784 and 3785 are spelled kaph-shin-pe/phe. This something one needs to be careful about, as Hebrew has two characters which may be pronounced as a hard "h" (chet and kaph/khaph) and two which may be pronounced as an "s" (samekh and shin/sin).

Nachash does, in fact, also mean "magic and magician". Nachash may also be translated as "bronze". The Hebrew word spelled nun-chet-shin has multiple meanings. (See Strong's Concordance #'s 5172-5180). Nachash is translated as all of the following in the King James Version: certainly divine (+5172) [2], indeed divineth (+5172) [2], used enchantments [2], diligiently observe [1], enchanter [1], enchanter [1], enchantments [1], learned by experience [1], use enchantment [1] (*5172), & enchantments [1], enchantment [1] (#5173)

'anan may also mean "cloud", therefore its connection to magic probably has something to do with summoning. Refer to the 1821 Richard Laurence translation of the Book of Enoch to find the comparison between demons/evil spirits and clouds:

8Now the giants, who have been born of spirit and of flesh, shall be called upon earth evil spirits, and on earth shall be their habitation. Evil spirits shall proceed from their flesh, because they were created from above; from the holy Watchers was their beginning and primary foundation. Evil spirits shall they be upon earth, and the spirits of the wicked shall they be called. The habitation of the spirits of heaven shall be in heaven; but upon earth shall be the habitation of terrestrial spirits, who are born on earth. (24)

9The spirits of the giants shall be like clouds, (25) which shall oppress, corrupt, fall, content, and bruise upon earth.

www.nazarene.net/enoch/1enoch01-60.htm#Chapter15

According to the Bible so worshipfully quoted at length, Jesus didn't go around screaming at people that they were "EVIL!!!!" It is quite clearly stated that he preferred the company of people that were condemned by self-righteous folk.

Yahshua HaMashiach was and is not tolerant of evil. See Matthew chapter 23 (especially verses 23-39, and particularly verses 32-33). See also John ch. 8 (esp. verses 42-47), Luke 11:37-54, and Matthew 12:22-42, Revelation 21:8 & 22:15.

KJV Matthew 12:33-35
33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.

KJV Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers (pharmakeus), and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

KJV Revelation 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers (pharmakos), and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

5332 pharmakeus, n. magician, sorcerer:- sorcerers [1]
5333 pharmakos, n. one who practices magical arts, magician:- sorcerers [1]
5331 pharmakeia, n. witchcraft, magic, the use of spells and potions of magic, often involving drugs:- sorceries [2], witchcraft [1]

REASON FOR EDITING: Error with an italicization.



[edit on 6-6-2004 by Ischyros]

I think the evidence given does prove the fact that witchcraft is real and an evil practise in the eyes of God. If someone choses to use witchcraft then that is a direct form of rebellion from what God commands about it, not to do it. Its pointless carrying on in this vain , because those against it quote the bible, while those for it and possibly involved in it dont believe the bible or the context it is being refered to. To get to the point of arguing over translations of words is equally pointless. All ancient traditions and stories of all tribes on earth from the dawn of time know and have recorded information regarding witchcraft. To say it is a mistranslation of a word may make since in one context , but what about all the other references ? Isnt to posion someone MURDER? Its a form of murder, right? Which is already covered in the bible. When Saul went to the "WITCH of Endor" (interestingly enough Endor is also in Star Wars, a film seeped in occultism) in your definition of the word, he only went to get her to posion someone right? I mean why would he go for any other reason if that was what a witch was?? a poisioner? Saul ended up speaking to a DEAD person, the prophet Samuel, which the witch rasied from his "sleep." Thats very diffent from posion!

Actually, Ischyros in his last post just demonstrated a very interesting technique that may be unfamiliar to many people. I am of course talking about the use of numbers and words together. Is this what you are refering to, TruthStrgnrThanFiction, as being an obvious 'sign' of Magick??

If so, you certainly wouldn't be the first. In fact, if I'm not mistaken that would be one aspect of Kabbala knowledge. As well as being the first step into learning The Hidden Language of the Universe, in a matter of speaking. Or at least one of the more true dialects of it anyway.

Could this be some bit of a hint to understanding what is meant by 'Eating of the Fruit from the Tree of Knowledge/Good & Evil'?

Or is it just a very clever way of creating a Language with a way to verify it's correct usage?

Not really , but maybe it plays a part in rituals..i dont know.

What i do know is of the witchcraft and sorcery that is recorded in the bible. Calling dead people from the grave......as one example.

I think maybe there is a mild magic...or wisdom that people practise to gain insight into the universe etc...im not talking about that. Im talking about the REAL stuff. Talking with demons...getting them to opress people , casting spells..using evil spirits to hinder some and advance others. Discerning the times....all the Occult stuff that involves the "Spirit World"
Ouija boards??? Thats what im on about and that is sorcery & witchcraft and it is condemned, and for a good reason.

Originally posted by TruthStrgnrThanFiction
Not really , but maybe it plays a part in rituals..i dont know.

What i do know is of the witchcraft and sorcery that is recorded in the bible. Calling dead people from the grave......as one example.

I think maybe there is a mild magic...or wisdom that people practise to gain insight into the universe etc...im not talking about that. Im talking about the REAL stuff. Talking with demons...getting them to opress people , casting spells..using evil spirits to hinder some and advance others. Discerning the times....all the Occult stuff that involves the "Spirit World"
Ouija boards??? Thats what im on about and that is sorcery & witchcraft and it is condemned, and for a good reason.

Ohhhhh.......You were talking about the REAL OCCULT!! Real stuff like spells and hexes and Bubbling cauldrons and Charms and Demon Possession and so forth......

Well now let me see.....


Let's start with 'An Evil Ruler with Black Eyes who Spouts Lies, Commands Death to All who Oppose his Will and who Possesses People by the Thousands under his Spell so they Believe in his Lies and do his Bidding until Death!/




Next let's throw in Great Beasts that Shake the Very Earth as they Move. Move at great speeds Spitting Fire and Death in all Directions. Impossible to hide from, or reason with as it acts on command only from its dark emperor. It is covered with layers of Scales making it impossible to stab into it's black heart in defense. All kinds of Beasts for Land Sea and even Giant Winged Beasts that Cover the Sky and Rain Down Hell Upon Earth!





Now some Creepy Green Goblin like Creatures with Bizarre Deformed Features, Creeping and Crawling through Shadows and Dark Places. Stalking and Hunting in Hordes.





You mean those kinds of Demons and Wickedness of the Darkest of Evils??

YOU'RE RIGHT, THOSE ARE MUCH, MUCH MORE HORRIFIC!![B]

Precisely my point all along, mOjOm. These horrific things are NOT the results of Witchcraft, sorcery or divination. I would bet that if you added up all the killings committed in the name of God by the "faithful", they would far outnumber those committed by pagans, witches and atheists.

Ischryos, it is clear you will go to any lengths to twist words (of any language) to prove your point. How you could interpret clouds as evil spirits is a big stretch by any yardstick, and it leads to this type of reasoning:

Those who pluck petals off of daisies saying "s/he loves me, s/he loves me not" are performing divination. EVIL!!!!

Anyone wearing a charm, be it cross, WWJD, or whatever -- even worse if it is a charm bracelet -- is guilty of witchcraft. EVIL!!!!

Baseball players who have lucky socks and little old bingo ladies who have lucky trolls, as well as those wretches possessing guardian angel statues with inset birthstones, are using charms and therefore performing witchcraft. EVIL!!!!

Those with troubles in thier lives who open a Bible and find their answers in the first Biblical passages they read are practicing divination (bibliomancy, to be specific). EVIL!!!!

Anyone who talks to their loved ones who have passed beyond because they believe the departed can hear or are "watching over" them are dealing with familiar spirits. EVIL!!!!

Weather forecasters are practicing divination, and if they're wrong, false prophecy. EVIL!!!!

Anyone who makes medicines, as well as the doctors who prescribe them and the pharmacists who dispense them are poisoners. EVIL!!!!

Anyone who uses the same prayers all the time, thereby making them repetitive invocations, is performing sorcery. EVIL!!!!

I could go on and on.

That you're bringing "Star Wars" into this discussion is a sign of how truly desperate you have become to prove a point, any point. It didn't succeed, as you've misinterpreted the mythic -- NOT occult -- theme of the original trilogy entirely. There's no "forbidden knowledge" about the Force (or even the workings of magic). It's just a matter of who "gets it" and who doesn't. You can also be ignorant of electricity and still have it to keep your lights on, but that doesn't mean that electricians have "forbidden knowledge". Today's magic is tomorrow's science. The poisons prescribed by doctors save millions of lives, and the divination performed by meteorologists does the same through warning people of advancing hurricanes & tornadoes. By your interpretation of the Bible, they should all be stoned to death, if not already damned to Hell.

And you still haven't proved how any of this relates to Kabbalah's (falsely) alleged link to satanic ritual abuse!