Kabbala witchcraft of the rich and powerful???

I am glad that you actually looked into Kabbalah a wee bit. Nevertheless, you persist in imposing your own biased view of it in direct contradiction of the very words you quoted. Nor does exhaustively quoting a Gospel that antedates the time of Jesus by over 50 years prove your point.

Oh, and the Tetragrammaton? It consists of the Hebrew letters Yod-Heh-Vav-Heh, and you've been saying it all along as "Yahweh". The name(s) of God are considered so sacred to the Jews that they don't use them nearly as casually as you, which says a great deal about your Christian humility.

Freemasonry does use some smatterings of Kabbalah (as do a lot of other practices & religions), but being a Master Mason hardly means that one is a master of the Kabbalah. Even the great Kabbalistic scholars of the Renaissance never called themselves "masters". I'm not sure what you thought was being proved by bringing Freemasonry into the subject, as Freemasonry is Freemasonry, and Kabbalah is Kabbalah. While the former may contain elements of the latter, it does not encompass it.

If the ummin & thummin were used to communicate with God, how are they NOT magical objects? If the priest did something to activate/initiate communication (and it's a sure bet there was a ritual involved), then he was performing a magical act. It's necromancy and poisoning that is condemned in the Bible, not Witchcraft. The use of the word "Witchcraft" in the King James version was a politically-motivated, deliberate mistranslation.

I've read the Bible and all the texts you've mentioned (plus the Book of Mormon, the Mishnah, the Talmud, the Koran, Hindu & Buddhist texts, etc. etc. etc.), and I should note that a great deal of the Pseudepigrapha is influenced by Greek thought. I point you in particular to the material concerning Sophia. I find it interesting that you know which texts were inspired by God and which weren't, despite all the debate that has gone on through the centures.

And as to your being intolerant, you were the one who basically called me and all Kabbalists/non-Christians "demonic" and that Kabbalah is part of satanic ritual abuse. Is that tolerance? And "It's His way or the hell-way" is nothing if not the statement of a fanatic, especially when followed by another flood of Biblical verse.

Oh, and by the way, you haven't proved that Kabbalah has anything to do with satanic ritual abuse. Or anything about Kabbalah, for that matter.

Quoting the Bible is necessary within the context of the debate.

Of course you will NOT read the Bible, seeing as it condemns magic witchcraft and socery of which you are a practitioner.

Witchcraft is a work of the flesh, the carnal mind. It is forbidden throughout the bible. Not because God doesnt want us to have "fun" playing with it. but because it is EVIL. The work you do in your live returns to your own hands, what you sow you reap as God is not mocked. If you sow to the flesh you reap to the flesh. Magic and witchcraft is very dangerous, there are only TWO sorces of "force" or "power" in the world. One is God who is love, and the other is Satan who has NO love. When you engage in socery you are dealing directly with the evil one, who is and has been a murder from the very beginning.

What about the socery and witchcraft books you read? How do you know they were not changed? If the bible is the word of God, who created all living things, couldnt he sustain his Word ?? Your own argument can be used against you.

Its a pity you dont read the bible. There is a situation in Acts involving a powerful sorcerer named Simon. You should read it!

You must not have read my posts. I HAVE read the Bible, and many times, as well as sacred texts from all over the world. (And guess what? All that Judaeo-Christian study, and I'm still pagan.) I have refrained from using quotes because people can easily look things up for themselves, either on the Web or at any library. It's a deliberate attempt on my part to encourage people to seek knowledge instead of bludgeoning people with dogma that has no real relevance to the topic at hand. You can't use the Bible to prove that it's the word of God, and that wasn't the point of this thread anyway.

You have no experience or knowledge of Witchcraft other than a few mistranslated words in the Bible. Evil is in the heart of every man and woman, and an evil Christian is no different than an evil Witch. With very few exceptions, all the Witches and pagans I know have a moral code few Christians could live up to, so your name-calling is meaningless.

Since you two are so fond of quoting the Bible, how intriguing that you both missed all the dire admonitions that it is NOT your place to judge another. Yet this thread was started with lies, accusing Kabbalah and Kabbalists of being involved with satanic child abuse, using only an extremely self-serving article as its foundation. I saw this incredibly skewed view bolstered by others unfamiliar with Kabbalah, and felt bound to interject a little common sense. All the Biblical quoting doesn't change the fact that people are making wildly unfounded accusations against a practice and faith that they do not understand. And if they choose to REMAIN in ignorance, instead of approaching the subject in an objective manner, then that is not my problem.

I didn't jump into this thread to try and convert anyone. I study Kabbalah, but I'm not and never will be Jewish! My goal was to make people step beyond their unfounded prejudices. That is MY "evil". Call me and other non-Christians all the names you like, but it does not change the fact that you are violating the tenets of your own religion by judging others.

TSTF, I need to address your question before I debate any further with others.

Ischyros, are you a Messanic Jew? As you name the Hebrew name of Jesus Christ? If you are , you must have some knowledge of kabbala then as it is part of your culture??? If you are of Hebrew origin please explain tbe difference between rabbinacal judisam and the ancient levite temple system please. Is modern day Judisam the same as the ancient form?

Well, the religion of Judaism itself has many problems. Yahshua repudiated the Traditions of the Elders, the basis for the Jewish Talmud.

KJV Matthew 15:1-3
1 Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying,
2 Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.
3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? (See also Matthew 15:3,6 & Mark 7:9, 13. Galatians 1:13-16 is also interesting.)

KJV Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Okay, now, to be quite frank, Judaism today is little more than the rejection of Christianity. Judaism is the religion of the Pharisaic priests, scribes, and elders who sentenced Yahshua, the Son and human manifestation of Yahweh, to death. This religion is codified in the Talmud, the Midrash, and other such writings.

What many people fail to understand is that none of Yahweh's children (whether mentioned in the Bible or not) ever practiced the religion of modern Judaism. Abraham, Moses, David, and all the true prophets were Christians! They looked forward to the incarnation, death, and resurrection of HaMashiach (the Messiah), even as we look backwards to it. They understood that animal sacrifices could never be enough to atone for their sins. Only Yahweh, only his Yahshua could fully pay the death penalty that our wickedness warrants.

(See Deuteronomy 18:15-19*, Psalms 2 & 110, etc. for verification of the pre-Yahshua Israelite Christianity. Also, the word salvation in the King James Version Old Testament is translated from the Hebrew yahshua**, salvation of Yah, 65 times. It is also translated a few times as deliverance, help, etc. It may not be meant as a prophecy of Yahweh�s Son Yahshua in every instance, but there are at least a few times where the context undeniably referring to our Savior.)

* I won't say that the verses in Deuteronomy are definitely prophesying about Yahshua, but they could be construed as such without too much difficulty.
** See Strong�s Concordance reference # 3444.

Yes, contrary to popular belief, Judaism is not the religion of the Old Testament. If that were true, where is the temple/tabernacle, the priests, and the blood sacrifices (which were commanded by the law even though not sufficient for salvation)?

Judaism attempts to take such verses such as Hosea 6:6, Psalm 40:6, 51:16, and Proverbs 21:3 out of context in order to justify the absence of animal sacrifices from their religion. They pretend to believe they can merely ask for forgiveness and be penitent in order to atone for their sins, without the need the blood. However, we shall see from the following verses that such a belief is nonsense:

KJV Leviticus 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

KJV Colossians 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: (Speaking of Yahshua of course)

KJV Hebrews 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Don't be fooled by the lies of the Satanic world-system. Yahweh's word is truth. Trust in Yahweh, His Word, and His Holy Spirit, and not the so-called wisdom of man.

Make no mistake, Talmudic Judaism is as far away from the true faith of Yahshua HaMashiach as a belief system can possibly be. As the following verses demonstrate, there can be no worship of nor relationship with the Father if one does not know the Son.

KJV John 3:35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

KJV John 5:20-23
20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

KJV John 8:16-19
16 And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.
17 It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.
18 I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.
19 Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.

KJV John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

KJV John 15:23-25
23 He that hateth me hateth my Father also.
24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.
25 But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.

Therefore, there is no such thing as Judeo-Chrisianity, only Judeo-Churchianity. Yahweh is not named by the so-called Jews because they don't worship Him at all. Nor have they for the last two thousand years or so. Christianity and Judaism do not serve the same God. They are diametrically opposed.

For those who don�t believe my earlier assertion that Yahshua�s name appears in the Old Testament/Tanakh in relation to Messianic prophecies, here are a few of them.

KJV Exodus 15:1-3
1 Then sang Moses and the children of Israel this song unto the LORD (Yahweh), and spake, saying, I will sing unto the LORD (Yahweh), for he hath triumphed gloriously: the horse and his rider hath he thrown into the sea.
2 The LORD (Yahweh) is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation (Yahshua): he is my God, and I will prepare him an habitation; my father's God, and I will exalt him.
3 The LORD (Yahweh) is a man of war: the LORD (Yahweh) is his name.

KJV Job 13:16 He also shall be my salvation (Yahshua): for an hypocrite shall not come before him.

KJV Psalms 118:14-15, 21
14 The LORD (Yahweh) is my strength and song, and is become my salvation (Yahshua).
15 The voice of rejoicing and salvation (Yahshua) is in the tabernacles of the righteous: the right hand of the LORD (Yahweh) doeth valiantly.
21 I will praise thee: for thou hast heard me, and art become my salvation (Yahshua).

KJV Isaiah 12:2 Behold, God is my salvation (Yahshua); I will trust, and not be afraid: for the LORD (YAH) JEHOVAH (YAHWEH) is my strength and my song; he also is become my salvation (Yahshua).

Originally posted by Ischyros

The following provides some clue to what the more advanced adepts of kabalah may practice:

"Masonic Grand Master, Albert Mackey explained in The Lexicon of Freemasonry that uttering the Name of God endued one with the power of God. Note Mackey's reference to the lost name of God, which Master Masons receive upon their initiation into the 3rd degree, according to the Masonic Legend of Hiram Abiff:

". . .The Tetragrammaton might only be uttered once a year on the Day of Atonement by the High Priest in the Holy of Holies alluding to amid the sound of trumpets and cymbals which prevented the people from hearing it. "

Dr. Albert G. Mackey was never a "Grand Master" (a Mason presiding over a Grand Lodge Jurisdiction). He was a revered member of the Craft known for his extensive writings in regard to Freemasonry. His short bio. Another fallacy is that the Master Mason's Word is the name of God; upon attaining the Sublime Degree of Master Mason the initiate is invested with the "Replacement Word", due to the "True Word" being lost at the time of Hiram Abiff's murder. The Tetragrammaton does not figure in the ritual of Blue Lodge Masonry, there are references to it in the Degrees of Scottish Rite Masonry.

Thanks for answering my questions about Judiasm.

Hecate....of all the things in the bible....THE most simpliest thing is witchcraft. Its forbidden. Simple.

Very interesting what was mentioned earlier about fallen angels and women in the time of Noah, offspring being giants, whose spirits are the evil spirits since that time. I posted other threads about this.

my intention hecate is NOT to judge you. Im not trying to push christianity onto anyone. I dont hate you or condemn you. We are told as Christians NOT to judge for as the measure we judge so shall we be judged. But we are encouraged to expose the workings of EVIL and to at least warn.

I did read all of your posts. You have read the bible and other scriptures. But you dont believe them because you practise witchcraft?

As is the sin of rebellion so is the sin of witchcraft. Critize every and all Christians, but they wont change whats in the word of God.Its wrong. As is all the other things, murder for example.

I also started this thread to find answers. I STILL dont know if Jewish Mystic faith has any part in it at all. I asked from what I have heard as explained in the first post. Only thing I know about it is Madonna, and Im in no hurry to learn more.

In reply to H-100 (and also for the benefit of anyone else interested in following this debate),

Archaeological Evidence: How many individual people throughout can archaeology actually prove to have existed? Not very many at all compared to the billions of men and women who have lived and died on this planet.

Quoting the Bible: Don't worry, I'm not quoting Yahweh's word for your sake, but for the sake of others who may be reading our debate and don't have either the time or the inclination to go look anything up. Oh, and reading the Bible and understanding the Bible are two different things entirely.

Church: I don't go to 'church' either. My Church is the true Church, the Body of Christ, which consists only of the true children of Yahweh who have totally surrendered their lives to Yahshua. Most of the so-called 'Christian seminaries and churches/religious institutions are largely infiltrated and subverted by Luciferian Satanists, witches, and pagans, etc. Most so-called Christian churches nowadays teach their congregations how to misunderstand the Bible.

Tetragrammaton: Yahweh, the personal name of God, is spelled yod-he-waw-he. The pronounciation of the "waw" as "vav" is a more modern innovation, introduced primarily by the Ashkenazi* who didn't even use Hebrew as a spoken language until the end of the 19th century and the emergence of Zionism. Prior to that, they either spoke Yiddish or the vernacular language of whatever country they happened to be dwelling in. For at least 1700 years, Hebrew was only used for writing by the Jews. Most, and I mean the vast majority, of those who study such matters agree that the sixth letter of the Hebrew alphabet was always pronounced as a "w" in ancient times.

*Some say the Ashkenazi may also have been influenced by German pronounciations when they started to pronounce the "waw" as a "vav".

Also, I'm not really concerned about Jewish superstitions concerning the name of Yahweh. Nowhere in the Bible does Yahweh ever tell Israel to refrain from using His name if they are living according to His will. In fact, it is quite the opposite. Yahweh Elohim commands His children to use His name. This is too large of a subject for me to address here, but I may start a new thread in order to address this subject soon.

Freemasonry and kabalah: I did not intend to say that Freemasonry encompasses the entirety of kabalah, nor that a Master Mason is thereby an expert practicioner of the same. Master Masons are only the 3rd degree out at least 33, so I wouldn't expect them to be very advanced. Anyway, what the passage I quoted does is provide some hint as to what some of the more hidden secrets of kabalah may actually be.

Urim and thummim: If Yahweh permitted the use of these objects, then they were not magical. Is a radio magical? Is a telephone or microphone magical? When David (or anyone else for that matter) used them, there are no rituals mentioned as being required in the text.

Magic and witchcraft: Yahweh-willing, I may have the opportunity to address this issue of the supposed mistranslation of Hebrew words meaning magic and witchcraft in the King James Version.

Intolerance to evil: Yes, I confess.

Fanaticism: Main Entry: fa�nat�ic
Pronunciation: f&-'na-tik
Variant(s): or fa�nat�i�cal /-ti-k&l/
Function: adjective
Etymology: Latin fanaticus inspired by a deity, frenzied, from fanum temple -- more at FEAST
: marked by excessive enthusiasm and often intense uncritical devotion

Originally posted by TruthStrgnrThanFiction

Of course you will NOT read the Bible, seeing as it condemns magic witchcraft and socery of which you are a practitioner.

Witchcraft is a work of the flesh, the carnal mind. It is forbidden throughout the bible. Not because God doesnt want us to have "fun" playing with it. but because it is EVIL. The work you do in your live returns to your own hands, what you sow you reap as God is not mocked. If you sow to the flesh you reap to the flesh. Magic and witchcraft is very dangerous, there are only TWO sorces of "force" or "power" in the world. One is God who is love, and the other is Satan who has NO love. When you engage in socery you are dealing directly with the evil one, who is and has been a murder from the very beginning.


Its a pity you dont read the bible. There is a situation in Acts involving a powerful sorcerer named Simon. You should read it!

and

Originally posted by TruthStrgnrThanFiction
my intention hecate is NOT to judge you. Im not trying to push christianity onto anyone. I dont hate you or condemn you. We are told as Christians NOT to judge for as the measure we judge so shall we be judged. But we are encouraged to expose the workings of EVIL and to at least warn.

I did read all of your posts. You have read the bible and other scriptures. But you dont believe them because you practise witchcraft?

As is the sin of rebellion so is the sin of witchcraft. Critize every and all Christians, but they wont change whats in the word of God.Its wrong. As is all the other things, murder for example.

Is it possible for others to believe differently than you do?

Could it be possible that christianity isn't the end-all, beat-all answer for everyone?

The debate over christianity vs. witchcraft is old and has been done elsewhere on this very forum. Please don't try to enlighten or inform us of our errant ways, just continue with your life and learn to deal with the fact that christianity just doesn't work for some.

That said, I'd like to see the discussion, on topic, continue.

p.s. Ischyros, you sound a LOT like mikromarius. You two should get together and discuss this.


Peace,
BG

Originally posted by TruthStrgnrThanFiction
Does anyone know anything about the Kabbala with regards to Satanic Ritual Abuse ??

You probably won't like the answer, but from what I know (High Magick, witchcraft, police procedures, psychology, fundamental Christianity) the answer is that this is pure bunk.

Fundamentalist Christians tend to go overboard on a lot of things. For instance, it may come as a great surprise to many here to find out that many of them consider Harry Potter to be demonic and the author to be a powerful witch (any Wiccan reading the books (I'm Wiccan) immediately knows the woman has zero knowledge about magic... but this doesn't stop the fundamentalists from accusing her of witchcraft and demonic influences.)

Among the many things that are said (by this group) to lead to the downfall of your soul, satanic practices, and involvement in satanic ritual abuse include the card game "Magic, the Gathering," Everquest (and all online roleplaying games), roleplaying games of ANY sort, non-Christian music, C.S. Lewis' NARNIA books (yes, really! I *KNOW* they're a Christian allegory and I've still seen these people slam him), Tolkien, and so on and so forth.

The list of things that give the Devil power into your life is going to eventually include breathing.

I remeber hearing a tape ages ago of a presentation done by a Christian women who has done extensive research on spiritual warfare and curses and stuff. She listed all sorts of stuff that you can find online about this subject, but she also briefly mentioned the Kabbala and said it is either one of the highest forms of witchcraft or is the highest.

Pure bunk... and shows she doesn't know what she's talking about and that her sources are other folks' stories (often they have tales such as they read a book (Harry Potter or ... goddess... even the latest trashy romance novel...) and suddenly Satan started attacking all over their lives so it meant that the forces of Evil were coming down to suck their souls (I kid you not. There's even a page on demons that inhabit your computer!))

Witches might use the Kabbala, but seldom in spells. It's a tool of Jewish mystics and philosophers and only very occasionally used in ceremonial magic.

She said it is Jewish Mystic Witchcraft.

More pure bunk.

Anyway she said that little is known about it, but that it is used by the very rich and powerful to groom people and often their children into positions of power in the world.

Inane statements. There are a LOT of books on the Kabbalah (some fairly ancient.) They don't match up with her rantings.

She's taking the "OhMYGosh!!!! The Jews have a Mystical Philosphy!! AIEEE!" view and combining it with "OhMYGosh!!! The Nazis were RIGHT!!! The Evil Jews are taking over the World Banking System and are Running The New World Order!!!! AIEEEE!!!" webpages that she finds on the Internet, combining them into her own theory (and thus "proving" it) and is running out to tell the world about this Evil Satanic Influence.

It's bunk.

This women knew ALOT of stuff about satanism but little about this.

I"d bet her Satanic sources are equally suspect, being limited to fundamentalist Christian sources and "recovering Satanists turned fundamentalist Christian" stories. I've known a few Satanists (we have... or have had.... one or two on the board) and the stuff on the extreme religious sites is nonsense.

And much of the old material on Satanism was extracted by torture and thus is VERY unreliable (folks will say just about anything to get you to stop crushing the bones in their hands or feet.)

I think it also involves MPD, where they screw with kids personalities when they are young using extreme trauma, to make them switch alters to unable them to do things then switch back and never remeber what they had done. Now I know MPD is known of ..and I think its been touched on here. Anyone know anything about the kabbala in this context?

MPD is known, but stories of Satanic ritual abuse are extremely suspect -- for one thing, there aren't that many Satanists and there aren't that many generations of them. Yes, there are a tiny number of such cases but for the most part it' something created by well-meaning therapists. The therapist can actually implant such memories by well-intended suggestions such as "I know you've had a hard time, poor thing. Many people with this kind of condition have some sort of childhood abuse trauma."

In one famous case, the well-intentioned therapist "drew out" memories of Satanic ritual abuse. The girl accused her father of murdering a playmate and involving her in satanic sex acts. The father was convicted on the girl's (actually, woman) charges and sent to jail for murder. A subsequent investigation (very thorough) turned up all sorts of problems with the story and it was determined that the whole thing had been made up by the woman during therapy under the influence of a helpful and well-intended therapist who kept suggesting she must have been horribly abused.

All I know about it is that Maddona uses it, it can lead to great enlightenment but also insanity if used wrong.

Given the mess Madonna has made of her life and the mess she made of her recent tour shows, I think we can sort of discount her as a skilled Kabbalist.

Ischyros I agree with your post on modern day Judiasm. The first Christians were Abraham on to Moses and the prophets of the OT.

Modern day Judiasm is not the same as the ancient practise.

Byrd you are right about the testimonies of people who have left the occult and become Christians. That is the base of alot of the information. There is even more occult now in the Church which is unbiblical. When it comes to spiritual warfare there is little of it in the bible. Only the armour of God for protection. When churchs get involved in the occult they start to add experiences and extra biblical teachings.

That said, there are people who have left it and written books (if interested do a net search on Blood on the Door Posts) who have given testimonies on the occult and some of them have had extremly high levels of involvment. The net is full of info on this stuff. Are you trying to tell me it is all lies?? ?? Witchcraft is real and is not a fable. If it was not real why is it documented in the bible from genesis to revelations???

The Kabbalah is neither �witchcraft�, nor is it the product of some kind of wealthy elite. In actuality, the most learned of all the Kabbalists were the ascetics, who had taken vows of poverty.
Despite all of the mystification concerning it, the Kabbalah (which means �to reveal�) is simply a branch of philosophy, although it does encompass its own body of divinity. I this way, it could be compared to Buddhism and Taoism.
The doctrines that have become known as the Kabbalah originated in an attempt to reconcile classical Judaism with the Neo-Platonic School of Philosophy. Beginning in the middle ages, it became apparent that much of what is contained in the Tanakh is not historically correct, and so it was theorized that such stories were allegories. Therefore, in order to interpret the meaning of the Scriptures, the early Kabbalistic scholars applied the concepts of Plato. To their surprise (or perhaps not so much to their surprise), they quickly learned that the teachings of Plato provided the key to understanding the often archaic symbolism of the Bible, and the School of the Kabbalah was formed. As a method of mapping knowledge, they instituted the diagram called the Tree of Life, which uses Hebrew symbolism, but is basically Platonic in nature. The �Four Worlds� of the Kabbalah are directly derived from Plato�s theories of the worlds of phenomenon and form, as outlined in his masterpiece, �The Republic�.
Eventually, the teachings of the Alexandrian Neo-Platonists, such as Plotinus and Hypatia, were adapted into the Kabbalah.
Up until the Renaissance, the Kabbalah was solely of interest to Jewish scholars. But in the 16th century, Christian mystics began studying Kabbalah, and outlined a Christian-based school of Kabbalah which they called �Hermetic�, in honor of Hermes Trismegistus, an ancient Graeco-Egyptian philosopher whom we know little about, save that his teachings influenced Zeno, the Stoics, Pythagoras, Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle. Trismegistus, like Pythagoras and Socrates, left no body of writings behind and taught orally only. What we know of them comes primarily from Plato, who was Socrates� most important student.

Fiat Lvx.

Originally posted by TruthStrgnrThanFiction
Witchcraft is real and is not a fable. If it was not real why is it documented in the bible from genesis to revelations???

Because of generalizations. That's all...

Some people will place a lable of witchcraft (that is called, judging) on anything from a different culture that they don't understand. It doesn't matter how different the cultures may be from each other in their rituals, beliefs and ways. (Especially some christian) people will always tend to lable them as witchcraft.

Originally posted by TruthStrgnrThanFiction
Critize every and all Christians, but they wont change whats in the word of God

I highly disagree with that. The Bible is what it is today because of Christians changing what the "word of God" says. You sir, are incorrect.

Originally posted by TruthStrgnrThanFiction
Does anyone know anything about the Kabbala with regards to Satanic Ritual Abuse ??

First let me start off by saying that I find your eagerness to connect the Kabbalah with "Satanic" Ritual Abuse, irresponsible. I've been a card carrying Satanist for going on 12 years now and never once have I witnessed Ritual Abuse of children or animals. The fact is, most true Satanists abhor any form of abuse toward children or animals which is more than I can say for the thousands upon thousands of children in the world down through the years that have been abused and murdered in the name of Christ under the guise of exorcising demons or forgiving sin.

Not all Satanic beliefs are the same but the majority do NOT sacrifice animals or abuse children. That's been proven as nothing more than a Christian propaganda scare tactic perpetrated by people looking to SELL books, tapes and videos. I believe you can even find many Christians and Christian bookstores still selling Chick Track Publications, extremely anti-catholic, anti-witchcraft, anti-everything propaganda booklets. Much of the information contained within them was proven outright lies...as have been many of the "I used to be a witch/satanist and saw babies slaughtered in the name of the Most Evil Lord Satan but now I'm saved and telling the Truth for Jesus." tour groups that often times get paid well into the thousands for appearances.

You need to do a bit more research before you start throwing the words "satanic" and "abuse" around. Some of you Christians could only hope to live up to some of the belief systems pagans and satanists live up to. The world might be a better place.

[Edited on 5/31/2004 by Sinobyte]

Originally posted by TruthStrgnrThanFiction
Byrd you are right about the testimonies of people who have left the occult and become Christians. That is the base of alot of the information. There is even more occult now in the Church which is unbiblical.

From what I've seen, this is mostly a product of people attempting to discredit one branch or another of Christianity. Most of it tends to be an outcry against the Catholic rituals -- rituals which are nearly 1800 years old.

Now... what the ones screaming about this don't realize is how different people were back then. While they were as intelligent as we are today, their opportunities to exercise intelligence were worse than the poorest in our ghettos today. Most people never went more than 10 miles from where they were born. Most (99%) could not read or write even their names. Most would die from disease or injury before the age of 50. Most would be married by 13 and parents by 14. Most would begin working at the age of 2 or 3 and work till they died. Most did manual labor from sunrise to sunset.

So how does one teach a preliterate population and keep them in the faith? By teaching them simple, repeatable rituals. They couldn't read the Bible or read books of inspiration, but they could learn to recite a number of prayers. Because they couldn't count, you gave them a rosary and they knew when they had done one prayer for each bead that they had turned their whole mind and attention on God for that time period.

Plays and dramas educated the people. Ceremony and churches with gold and marble gave them an idea of what heaven would be -- and because the people could enter at any time (unlike the King's palace or a lord's mansion), the wealth was something they felt was approachable.

When it comes to spiritual warfare there is little of it in the bible. Only the armour of God for protection. When churchs get involved in the occult they start to add experiences and extra biblical teachings.

Let me give you a different perspective here, and one taken from many observations of several large Christian boards (both the conservative and liberal) for about five years: Among the evangelicals and fundamentalists there is a somewhat ... hysterical (I hate to call it this but can't think of a better term -- overemotional, perhaps?) mindset that sees demons in everything.

If your pet cat runs away, it's because Satan is afflicting you. If your coworker is in a grumpy mood, it's Satan's doing (and not that she got fed up with your constantly playing sappy Christian music at six times the normal volume.) If your wife wants a divorce, it's Satanic persecution and not that you're a self-righteous, picky, hypercritical man who puts her and the kids down at every turn.

Every negative is attributed to a personal attack from the Lord of the Underworld, trying to claw you away from God.

The Jews of the Old Testament were quite different. Misfortunes weren't generally the result of demonic persecution, and to Moses and the writers of the Old Testament, there was no Demonic Lord Of The Underworld Whose Power Was Equal To God's. God did have "satans" (plural) who went about and tested man, but God's word was supreme and no evil happened without his control.

Moses didn't believe in the Devil. He might have believed as many Jews do that the evil dead simply disintegrated after death or that their souls were tormented forever by demons of their own minds: www.jewfaq.org...

That said, there are people who have left it and written books (if interested do a net search on Blood on the Door Posts) who have given testimonies on the occult and some of them have had extremly high levels of involvment. The net is full of info on this stuff. Are you trying to tell me it is all lies?? ??

Not to be offensive, here, but there are many Christians who believe that a good story (well-intentioned, but completely made up) about someone getting away from a Satanic situation is a worthwhile thing to spread. The fact that it is simply fiction doesn't prevent it from being told as truth.

Snopes (the urban legend site) has a whole huge database full of these "glurges" that have been investigated and found to be urban legends. The FBI and police departments have done a lot of research on Satanic ritual abuse and found it to be mostly baloney:

Let me cite a reference, here:

One documented example of what I might call "ritual" child abuse was the horror chronicled in the book A Death in White Bear Lake (Siegal, 1990). The abuse in this case, however, had little to do with anyone's spiritual belief system. There are many children in the United States who, starting early in their lives, are severely psychologically, physically, and sexually traumatized by angry, sadistic parents or other adults. Such abuse, however, is not perpetrated only or primarily by satanists. The statistical odds are that such abusers are members of mainstream religions. If 99.9% of satanists and 0.1% of Christians abuse children as part of their spiritual belief system, that still means that the vast majority of children so abused were abused by Christians.

This is from an FBI profiler, and the documentation is here:
www.religioustolerance.org...
...and here:
www.stopbadtherapy.com...
This last one has links to the direct studies and methods. They've been widely published.

Witchcraft is real and is not a fable. If it was not real why is it documented in the bible from genesis to revelations???

Actually, it isn't that commonly mentioned and as Hecate has said, if you check your Strong's concordance, you'll find that it means "poisoners" and that it was changed to "witchcraft" during the King James translation that took place at the height of the witch scare in the 1600's. The Bible also warns against necromancers as well (those who raise dead spirits and talk to them.)

Witchcraft (using the anthropologist's definition, here) is very prevalent in all societies. Some African witches make use of human body parts and there is, indeed, a black market trade in them. But the number of these practitioners is quite small and they risk being murdered by their own societies. There is no evdience at all that practitioners of witchcraft around the world are getting together and taking over the universe or whatever.

I doubt you could get any sixteen witches/sorcerers to agree on much of anything beyond the basics (which is why your average coven numbers roughly 10 people and does not meet in a grand meeting hall like the Baptists do.)

[Edited on 31-5-2004 by Byrd]

For those interested in stories of ritual abuse, here's one about someone who went into therapy and with the help of a friendly therapist, uncovered secret traumatic Satanic abuse -- which was all a product of the therapy and had never actually happened:
www.stopbadtherapy.com...

(note the element of trying to please the therapist and the therapist paying more attention and giving more time to the patient as soon as their memories got more lurrid and more traumatic)

A list of other stories (similar) is here:
www.stopbadtherapy.com...

This is only some of the material... it's been a hot-button topic in psychology (about therapeutic abusers) since the early 1990's or a bit before.

I will quote ONE thing here, from the deliberately mistranslated and error-ridden KJV Bible that has been so voluminiously splayed all over this thread: "Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven." Luke 6:37

I have seen a LOT of condemnation here from presumably devout Christians. Like it or not, Christianity is the belief of only about 30% of the world's population -- and that's if you add together every denomination and sect! With all the slander & ranting against other faiths and even other Christians demonstrated here and elsewhere, it is apparent that the tenets of love and tolerance supposedly preached by Jesus have been lost in the scuffle to prove who's a "true" Christian and who's not. This intolerant attitude -- and yes, blasting anything not of one's particular brand of Christianity as "EVIL" is most certainly intolerance -- both within and without Christianity is what is rotting the faith from within. NOT occultism. The very fact that "so much occultism" has permeated Christianity is a symptom, but not the disease itself. That's the log in the eye that most Christians can't seem to recognize. According to the Bible so worshipfully quoted at length, Jesus didn't go around screaming at people that they were "EVIL!!!!" It is quite clearly stated that he preferred the company of people that were condemned by self-righteous folk. I'm pagan, but I've held quite reasonable discussions with rabbis, ministers, and priests of many faiths. Never, once, did these spiritual leaders call me and my practices "EVIL", and even the Christian ministers did not try to overwhelm the discussion with Biblical verse. Those secure in their faith do not need a superfluity of dogma to override dissention.

My reading comprehension is just fine, thanks, and it does not follow that I do not understand the Bible merely because I don't ascribe to Christianity. By the arguments presented, those who are reading the Tanakh who do not become Jews don't understand it either. The same goes for not becoming a devotee to Krishna or a Hindu through a reading of the Bhagavad-Gita. Blind faith is actually the anthesis of wisdom, as it precludes any form of critical thought or objectivity. To put it simply, you cannot get an accurate view of any religion unless you approach it with an open mind and try to perceive the viewpoint of its adherents.

I researched Christianity because I really wanted to find some validation there. NOT "because [I] practice[d] witchcraft". That came later. What I found was that not only is there NO proof that Jesus existed, but also that a blatant agenda was perpetrated that put the Mithraic mythos and its Zoroastrian influences in line with the Old Testament. Even if one did take upon faith that Jesus existed, all the Greek & Zorastrianism elements such as Hades (hell) and its assorted demons (including the Christian version of Satan) prove that Christianity is so far removed from what Jesus and the first Christians observed (they were really practicing Jews) it quite debunks any modern attempts to claim the title of "true" Christian.

Nowhere have I advocated anyone becoming a Kabbalist, Witch, psychic, whatever. In fact, I've only referred to my particular faith in the most vague of terms, as it is not the topic of discussion (any more than Christianity is, really). If you want to be Christian, Jewish, Islamic, pagan, or dust-bunny worshipper, fine, that's not my business. But I will speak out when the evils of intolerance and prejudice are demonstrated as they have been here, where people pass judgment on things they haven't even bothered to research properly (or at all). If people are too lazy to look something up for themselves, they'll still be as intellectually apathetic after a flood of dogmatic, self-serving quotes. And no matter how many Biblical passages you throw at me, I'll still be a Witch.

Again, it is not Witchcraft that is condemned in the Bible. In fact, the word deliberately mistranslated in "thou shalt not suffer a Witch to live" is actually "poisoner". (James had a particular agenda, probably because he heard the rumor that the witches tried to prevent his ascent to the throne.) Necromancy is also condemned, and what is the consumption of Jesus' transubstantiated flesh & blood during communion but necromancy? Magic is all through the Bible and Judaeo-Christianity as a whole, rituals, divinations, invocations and many other acts such as those performed by Moses. Nitpick about terminology all you please, but it's still magic. There is very little difference between the raising of power in a Church or prayer meeting and that performed at a Wiccan or other magical rite. And what is faith healing if not magic? The Christian faith healer is using the energy raised by hir congregation to perform such feats. The exact same operation can be witnessed at a vodoo ritual! Magic is magic, irregardless of the deity in whose name it is performed. Bandying semantics doesn't change the facts.

Quibbling over a vowel sound doesn't prove anything, as I deliberately chose to use the phonetic spelling most commonly used when referring to the Tetragrammaton. I could have used the names of those particular Hebrew letters, but was pointing out that your use of that particular name of God is derived from the very mystical viewpoint you despise, and also that your casual use is offensive in the eyes of others who find the names of God too sacred to speak except under certain circumstances. I guarantee that if people actually do some research on the subject, they'll find my usage to be quite prevalent.

Why am I a pagan? Because through my reading of the world's sacred scriptures, I have found that no one religion holds a monopoly on truth. It is in many places, including the realm of Nature. Mainstream religion is not for me, though I do not begrudge other people taking joy in it. I have met good, loving people of every faith, as well as wonderful people who happened to be atheists. Together we have celebrated our joys and wept at our sorrows, as the human experience is the same for all no matter what religion or lack thereof. I'm sure that if he existed, Jesus would agree that it's more important for everyone to love everyone and try to understand their points of view than it is to prove that one religion has greater validity than another.