Obama wants to out our military!

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


Since you have never or will never join the military my opinion of your opinion is that it doesn't concern you.

As far as I am concerned, anyone that isn't, has never or will never join the military doesn't have a dog in this fight.

If the President wants to change this policy he should ask those that are in uniform their opinion as they are the ones who will be affected by this, not you or your homosexual friends.

You can say its just because they are homophobes all you want, but in the end those are simply empty words on your part.

As far as your mental comparison.

You know full good and well I was speaking about the sexual mentality and your weak example shows me that you are simply speaking out the wrong end.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Originally posted by ModernAcademia
I mean if you think that I think that ALL gays would stare then no I don't think that.

So that's what would happen? Someone would STARE at you? And you think that needs to be dealt with? That's what you're so afraid of? Tell me... How does someone staring at you hurt you?

That is NOT the point!
See here you are not debating, you are tryign to go around issues.

So men can go into women's shower rooms at the gym and the man can say "how am I hurting you".

I understand that you have your views remember if you can't answer a question youre better off not answering it.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Originally posted by ModernAcademia

If being gay is not a mental defect then why do many gays act so feminine?
do they really like men or are they really just trying to be women?

Your ignorance of the LGTB world is a discussion for another thread.

I noticed you cut the rest of my post there making it look like I said something completely different.

NOT COOL


[edit on 29-1-2010 by ModernAcademia]

Originally posted by Berserker01
As far as I am concerned, anyone that isn't, has never or will never join the military doesn't have a dog in this fight.

A dog in this fight? Perhaps not. I'm not in the military and I'm not gay. But I do have an opinion about equal rights. And I will share it. You can dismiss it if you like, but my opinion is valid.

Originally posted by ModernAcademia
That is NOT the point!
See here you are not debating, you are tryign to go around issues.

What is the point, then? I'm not trying to go around the issue. I'm asking you what the harm is. You said that they might stare. If that's not the point, then what is the problem?

So men can go into women's shower rooms at the gym and the man can say "how am I hurting you".

No. We're not talking about two different genders. We're talking about all men. Or all women.

You still haven't told me what the harm is is a gay guy looks at you. It's kind of silly, really.

I understand that you have your views remember if you can't answer a question youre better off not answering it.

I have answered every question I have been asked. Just because you don't like my answer doesn't mean I didn't answer it.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
I noticed you cut the rest of my post there making it look like I said something completely different.

I did not. I posted your entire paragraph. I trim my quotes to the issue I am responding to, as is ATS policy.

Originally posted by Berserker01
Since you have never or will never join the military my opinion of your opinion is that it doesn't concern you.

Actually, that is the great thing about this country and what our soldiers fight for. For all people to have a voice and enjoy the basic respects of freedom of speech deserving to every human. You may not value the opinion, but you never have the right to decide who deserves to have one.

As far as I am concerned, anyone that isn't, has never or will never join the military doesn't have a dog in this fight.

Well pardon me for being blunt, but you're wrong.

If the President wants to change this policy he should ask those that are in uniform their opinion as they are the ones who will be affected by this, not you or your homosexual friends.

Not the way it works, if it did then I'm quite sure that all of our brothers and sisters in arms around the world would rather be home with their families/loved ones rather than extended tours of duty abroad.

You can say its just because they are homophobes all you want, but in the end those are simply empty words on your part.

Pot, meet kettle.

As far as your mental comparison.

You know full good and well I was speaking about the sexual mentality and your weak example shows me that you are simply speaking out the wrong end.

Sexual mentality? I can tell you stories about heterosexual soldiers that they have told me that would totally blow your arguments out of the water. However, such talk would be contrary to the Terms and Conditions, therefore like I said earlier. Google it.

Im jumping in late and ignoring my own personal rule about reading through the pages to see what has been said or brought up.

The 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell' policy does not prohibit gays from joining the military. It prohibits recruiters and military personnel from asking about sexual preference. It prohibits members of the military from being openly gay while serving in the Armed Forces. Trust me, if a recruiter needs to make a quota, they will take babies if they could.

There are other regulations held within the UCMJ that also state people are to only have missionary sex and that sodomy is punishable. Openly affectionate heterosexual couples are also barred from displaying said affection while in uniform or on duty. The military is not going to be bugging your house nor the town you live near to see if you are gay.

The notion that gays are not allowed in the military is one perpetuated upon ignorance and under education. There is a general prejudice of gays in the military and I will contend it isn't right, but there are plenty of active members of the Armed Forces that swing that way in terms of sexual preference.

reply to post by Moonman1111

Plus, I think the majority of soldiers would be uncomfortable sharing close living quarters with a homosexual, I know I would.

Dont let the terrorists find out the the weakness of the US military is the fear of homosexuals.

Seriously, everything in your post is false and offensive.

Originally posted by Asktheanimals
reply to post by Benevolent Heretic

 

I find myself agreeing with you most of the time BH but not on this one. There is nothing more important in the military than unit cohesion. These guys eat, sleep, shower, fight and die in very close proximity to each other. The LAST thing our fighting men need to be doing is wondering WTH the soldier next to him is thinking.
I don't believe in having women in combat nor men who are openly homosexual. If they can hide it, fine. Otherwise, no.
I'm not homophobic nor do I serve in the military.
Respectfully disagreeing with you on this though.

Does that cohesion mean that they have to be of the same race, religion and general up bringing?

When you join the military you are required to follow orders. Soldiers are forced to get over all of the other potential hang ups that they might have. i"m sure that there are racists who are forced to bunk with people with different skin colors. I'm sure that Christians are forced to bunk with people of different faiths.

Your post is close minded and ignorant. People are people, regardless of race, religion, sexual orientation or any other difference you can find in order to treat others different from you.

Originally posted by Berserker01
reply to post by seagull

 

Physically they are the same sex, but mentally they are not.

People need to realize that homosexuals are indeed a differant sex. They will need to be treated as such. A homosexual male is not the same as me. Physically we are the same, but mentally we are differant. Just as if a female had a sex change and now looks like a male or a male has a sex change and becomes a female.

Just because you look the part doesn't mean that you fit the part.

I think people need to realize that EVERYONE is different mentally. Who cares what other people are thinking.

You do realize that there are homosexuals living among us in all business and walks of life.

Should homosexuals have separate public restrooms? This is silly to even have this discussion. What if someone is bi-sexual? What if a heterosexual man is comfortable enough with his own sexuality to find beauty in all forms. Is he not allowed to think another man is handsome or in great shape.

Get over it. People are people

Originally posted by ModernAcademia

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
what do you think is going to happen if a straight guy showers in front of a gay guy? That's a real question. What exactly is the problem?

What are your thoughts on unisex showering, wherein some of the people are against it?
Or even worse, the women showering don't even know who the men are!

I personally don't think nudity is an issue.

I think our society makes it an issue.

Originally posted by Berserker01
reply to post by Benevolent Heretic

 

The military will never force straight and homosexual soldiers to shower together.

Who do you think they shower with now? There are many gays in the military. I would bet most soldiers know who is gay. The ones that get turned in - - seem to because someone has a "beef" with them - - which is not about them being gay.

An issue is only an issue - - if you make it an issue.

Originally posted by Berserker01
reply to post by ModernAcademia

 

Don't mind BH, apparently she thinks everyday military life is like Basic Training.

What she doesn't realize is that military life is like everyday life for civilians. They wake up, go to work and go home.

Sure they do field training and whatnot, but most of the time, unless they are deployed, it is rarely like what she believes it to be.

That's a very white washed narrow stereotypical view of the military - don't you think?

I would think it depends greatly on where you are assigned and what type unit you are assigned to.

No I am not in the military - - but I do live in a Marine base town. Have had plenty of conversations. War is not a TV sitcom.

Originally posted by Berserker01
Since you have never or will never join the military my opinion of your opinion is that it doesn't concern you.

As far as I am concerned, anyone that isn't, has never or will never join the military doesn't have a dog in this fight.

A fair statement. I've served as an infantry Marine and I see no need to prevent homosexuals from openly serving or women from serving in any (even direct combat) respect.

If the President wants to change this policy he should ask those that are in uniform their opinion as they are the ones who will be affected by this, not you or your homosexual friends.

The views of the military members is inconsequential by design. He should (not must) as the opinions of his generals/admirals, but he doesn't have to agree.

The military will do as it's told, provided it's lawful. Simple as that and that's how it should be. They adapted to different races and they adapted to women (poorly, but still).

How the men/women "feel" about it does not matter, so I'd judge your opinion of non-military persons having less of a valued opinion as void.

You can say its just because they are homophobes all you want, but in the end those are simply empty words on your part.

True. Many call me a misogynist, an anti-Semite, etc for some of my views, but it's untrue and petty.

Not wanting homosexuals openly in the military is not just for homophobes (stupid term). I understand the pragmatism of some of those who oppose it, I simply disagree and think it's high time we ceased inequality for stupid reasons.

Peace,
KJ

Originally posted by KrazyJethro
A fair statement.

I don't think it is a fair statement. Just because a person hasn't been in the military doesn't mean we, as Americans, don't have just as valid an opinion about the equal treatment of our fellow Americans as do military people. The military's opinions are no more valid than the civilian's in this matter.

The views of the military members is inconsequential by design.

Exactly. They don't take a vote of the military to decide whether or not they will go to war in a certain area or what they will do on a certain day or what the mess hall should look like or how much money to spend on the fatigues. The military is not a democracy.

How the men/women "feel" about it does not matter, so I'd judge your opinion of non-military persons having less of a valued opinion as void.

Thank you.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
I don't think it is a fair statement.

Just because a person hasn't been in the military doesn't mean we, as Americans, don't have just as valid an opinion about the equal treatment of our fellow Americans as do military people. The military's opinions are no more valid than the civilian's in this matter.

It is a fair statement, meaning it is an understandable perspective. Being a former Marine I understand the point of view, however I still believe it is wrong.

An opinion can be fair and still be wrong.

Exactly. They don't take a vote of the military to decide whether or not they will go to war in a certain area or what they will do on a certain day or what the mess hall should look like or how much money to spend on the fatigues. The military is not a democracy.

Correct. I will, however, say that any leader worth their salt will ask for opinions of those under him. That would be the generals/admirals only though, and being a civilian run military, the president can disagree or disregard their opinion.

Thank you.

You're welcome as always BH. Glad to be on your side on occasion.

Peace,
KJ

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
I don't think it is a fair statement.

Just because a person hasn't been in the military doesn't mean we, as Americans, don't have just as valid an opinion about the equal treatment of our fellow Americans as do military people. The military's opinions are no more valid than the civilian's in this matter.

That's fine, as long as a civilian knows it's just an opinion. I don't like it when civilians try to pass policy onto the military based solely on their opinions.

Originally posted by jerico65
That's fine, as long as a civilian knows it's just an opinion.

Just as the military's thoughts on it are just opinions.

Speaking of the military's opinions:

73 percent of military personnel are comfortable with lesbians and gays (Zogby International, 2006).

One in four U.S. troops who served in Afghanistan or Iraq knows a member of their unit who is gay (Zogby, 2006).

Majorities of weekly churchgoers (60 percent), conservatives (58 percent), and Republicans (58 percent) now favor repeal (Gallup, 2009).

Seventy-five percent of Americans support gays serving openly - up from just 44 percent in 1993 (ABC News/Washington Post, 2008).

Today, there are at least 65,000 gay Americans serving on active duty and one million gay veterans in the United States, according to the Urban Institute.

Source

They're here... they're queer. Get used to it.

I'll be calling my Congressmen with my opinion.

This could be happening soon.

Senate Armed Services Cmte Chairman Carl Levin, D-MI, who earlier this week said he favors a repeal of the military's "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy, a long-standing ban on gay's serving openly in the armed forces, tonight told Fox News the first hearing on the subject COULD occur as early as NEXT WEEK.

Levin stressed that he first needed to talk to his cmte GOP counterpart, Sen. John McCain, R-AZ, about whether or not they could use a previously-scheduled hearing with DOD Secy Robert Gates and Joints Chiefs Chairman Mike Mullen on the budget to also ask about a repeal of the policy.

Source

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Just as the military's thoughts on it are just opinions.

Sorry, for the military, it isn't some opinion. For us, it's perhaps future policy. Sorry to burst your bubble.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Speaking of the military's opinions:

And? I'm sorry, did I miss something? Were your sources suppose to get me mad or something? I really don't care.

All that matters is that if someone is gay and in the military, they do their job without bitching and whining and wanting their "rights" and they have a desire to shoot smelly bearded men in the face.

Simple.

Now I'll entertain questions until the end of class.

[edit on 31-1-2010 by jerico65]

Originally posted by jerico65
Sorry, for the military, it isn't some opinion. For us, it's perhaps future policy.

But you have your opinion about it, just like everyone else. And your opinion is all it is. You join the military knowing that you have to follow their policy.

And? I'm sorry, did I miss something? Were your sources suppose to get me mad or something?

No. Why would I want to "get you mad"? I was educating you on the opinions of the military.

All that matters is that if someone is gay and in the military, they do their job without bitching and whining and wanting their "rights" and they have a desire to shoot smelly bearded men in the face.

Apparently that isn't all that matters. I agree that gay people, just like straight people, need to do their jobs. But they do deserve rights equal to the other soldiers. This discriminatory policy is going down the toilet. I hope you can catch up with it.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
But you have your opinion about it, just like everyone else. And your opinion is all it is. You join the military knowing that you have to follow their policy.

You're right. What I had said is that I don't like it when civilians without a single clue about what goes on in the military start running their suck about how things should change, what should go on, etc.

The military establishes a policy, fine.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
No. Why would I want to "get you mad"? I was educating you on the opinions of the military.

Why thank you. I've only been in the military for 27 years. I might have an idea what policies are under review for change.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Apparently that isn't all that matters.

I agree that gay people, just like straight people, need to do their jobs. But they do deserve rights equal to the other soldiers. This discriminatory policy is going down the toilet.

Sorry, doing the job is all that matters. Whether it's scrubbing pots or shooting bad guys, all that matters is getting the mission done.

And I have no problem with equal rights. I do have a problem with some people thinking that they are more equal than others.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
I hope you can catch up with it.

I'm sorry. Did you have a problem reading my posts? Are you having a problem with understanding the words that I'm typing here?

You hope I "catch up" with it? Are you under the impression that I have a problem with gays in the military? If you go back and actually read my post, you'll see that I only want them to do their job properly. Now, where does that state I have a problem with gays?

Originally posted by jerico65

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
But you have your opinion about it, just like everyone else. And your opinion is all it is. You join the military knowing that you have to follow their policy.

You're right. What I had said is that I don't like it when civilians without a single clue about what goes on in the military start running their suck about how things should change, what should go on, etc.

The military establishes a policy, fine.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
No. Why would I want to "get you mad"? I was educating you on the opinions of the military.

Why thank you. I've only been in the military for 27 years. I might have an idea what policies are under review for change.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Apparently that isn't all that matters.

I agree that gay people, just like straight people, need to do their jobs. But they do deserve rights equal to the other soldiers. This discriminatory policy is going down the toilet.

Sorry, doing the job is all that matters. Whether it's scrubbing pots or shooting bad guys, all that matters is getting the mission done.

And I have no problem with equal rights. I do have a problem with some people thinking that they are more equal than others.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
I hope you can catch up with it.

I'm sorry. Did you have a problem reading my posts? Are you having a problem with understanding the words that I'm typing here?

You hope I "catch up" with it? Are you under the impression that I have a problem with gays in the military? If you go back and actually read my post, you'll see that I only want them to do their job properly. Now, where does that state I have a problem with gays?

/bravo

"civilians without a single clue about what goes on in the military start running their suck about how things should change, what should go on, etc."

IMO If it Isn't broke than Don't fix it. There is a VAST difference between "opportunity", orientation, exposure, regulation, professionalism and service. There are gays in the military, its a fact and I've witnessed behavior that is both within the standards listed above and crude behavior that are on grounds for dishonorable discharge. To those that have never worn boots for a profession who "think" they understand the environment fully, the Don't Ask Don't Tell policy should be sufficient enough. I'm not promoting what some say is denial. I'm promoting that It isn't broken, then there should be no need to fix it.

I'm not homophobic, but for the sanctity of my argument i wont go into detail. In my experiences the current policy fits fine. 2 E5's dancing at the club, well I didn't ask, and I didn't tell. My problem (which other people are concerned with) is that Your Personal sexuality should not be thrown in other peoples faces. For example, like the time I was in basic a few years ago. After a long day of work I wake up at 2am to use the latrine, I walk in and see two men under the covers on a shower bench. I look the other way, use the toilet and go back to bed. I, nor Anyone should have to be exposed to Anyone's Sexual orientation heterosexual or homosexual.

I don't care about your religion, political stances, or your sexual orientation. Just don't throw it in my face. I don't care if Randy Rambo can strap a M240 and mow down a a village of Jihad Combatants. What he does on his spare time should his and only his business. I shouldn't have to see or hear about it. Don't Ask Don't Tell. And above all don't burst personal boundaries. If I'm in the shower I don't want anyone staring daggers at my goodies, just the same preference a woman or an convict would have. Gender has nothing to do with it. Man or Woman, if your staring at someones junk in the shower you more than likely have an agenda or thinking of one. Which is why any rational thinking personal Should be alarmed. If your walking down the street in the hood, and someone is staring you down like you owe them money you Should be alarmed. If you walk up to an ATM and the person behind you is staring hard you Should be alarmed. In unsafe environments ( almost everywhere on this planet) this is a natural Self-Defense instinct, and should not be triggered in inappropriate places such as Showers, and Bathrooms.

The opposition to changing Don't Ask Don't Tell isn't based on infringing on Equal Rights, but rather a change that is more promoting than regulating. If a homosexual wants to serve this country, there is very little to prevent such actions. IMO current policy on the matter still works the way it should.