Obama wants to out our military!

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
what do you think is going to happen if a straight guy showers in front of a gay guy? That's a real question. What exactly is the problem?

What are your thoughts on unisex showering, wherein some of the people are against it?
Or even worse, the women showering don't even know who the men are!

Originally posted by Phlynx
Link please? If there is no source, there is no proof.

Since when did having a source prove anything? Just because something is written elsewhere does not make it fact.

Many gays join the military just to have more gay sex. They have fake marriages to get more pay. I know a few of these. They love being forced to bunk with other gays.

[edit on 29-1-2010 by earthdude]

Originally posted by ModernAcademia
What are your thoughts on unisex showering, wherein some of the people are against it?

So, you didn't answer my question, but instead, asked me one. OK. I'll answer it in hopes that you will return the favor.

If the military had unisex showers and I wanted to join the military, it would be something that I would have to take into account. After all, they wake these men and women up at 4 AM and trudge through the rain and mud all day with 75 lb packs on their backs, homesick, pushed and prodded, They are yelled at and demeaned, only to end the day with having to clean the barracks top to bottom. And all for a pittance. Who is looking at my body at the end of the day is going to be the least of my worries.

So the answer is simple, if you don't want to shower with the opposite sex, don't join the military.

Now that I've fully answered your hypothetical question, could you answer mine? What do you think is going to happen if a straight guy showers in front of a gay guy? Thank you.

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


The military will never force straight and homosexual soldiers to shower together.

Just like we do with the opposite sexes, they will have their own shower times or shower tents.

You talk about making the choice before you join whether or not you can stand showering or living with a person that is gay or that is the opposite sex.

You forgot about the ones who are already serving that will not get the chance to weigh that option. .

A bunch of people who will never serve in the military, or have any intentions of joining the military are the ones yelling about this (I would wager everything I own that you fit in that category). They are willing to disrupt the lives of hundreds of thousands for the sake of a couple of hundred.


To use your own reasoning.

If you are gay and cannot help but to express it then don't join the military.

reply to post by toochaos4u


I'm sorry you were treated in that fashion. It wasn't and isn't fair. Gays have been serving in all the branches from, I would imagine, day one. Frankly, I really don't understand the issue...

Our nation is supposed to stand for something, and that's freedom to be the best you can be at whatever you choose. Be it butcher, baker, or soldier. So a soldier is attracted to a member of the same sex...at some point it comes down to trusting in the honor, and discipline, of the individual to behave in a fashion conducive to maintaining good order...just like straights.

It's a shame to see that we've still a ways to go.

reply to post by seagull


Just like straights?

Do we still not segregate the sexes?

Perhaps someone can enlighten me, but I do not understand the problem with don't ask don't tell. Isn't it for the protection of homosexuals? I know at one point it forbid the enlistment of homosexuals, but I thought that was repealed. As it stands now, I thought it only prohibited the publicizing of sexuality. Furthermore, I thought that was prohibited because of the violence against homosexuals. So........what is the problem with a policy that says it's none of anyone's damn business.

This part may seem really, um....special but I've gotta ask. Say it is repealed and people are out and proud. How does that effect the barrack and bath situation? Will there need to be three or four areas, one for straight men, one for gay men, one for straight women, and one for lesbians? I can definitely see this being a problem, mostly for straight men.

Originally posted by Berserker01
reply to post by seagull

 

Just like straights?

Do we still not segregate the sexes?

The military is going to have to build a bunch of new showers. One for straights, one for gays and then double that for whatever genitalia they have that day. I think the gays should be identified by a pink stripe.

reply to post by Berserker01


They aren't a different sex, why segregate? Blacks aren't... Other races aren't... Segregate because you're uncomfortable? Got three words for you: Get over it.

If unwanted advances are made by men towards women, there are rules and regulations governing that...those same rules can be used to govern unwanted advances by men toward men, or women toward women.

At some point, people need to trust in the discipline of the services. Don't like gays in the military? Don't join, or don't renew your enlistment. Adapt, in other words.

reply to post by seagull


Physically they are the same sex, but mentally they are not.

People need to realize that homosexuals are indeed a differant sex. They will need to be treated as such. A homosexual male is not the same as me. Physically we are the same, but mentally we are differant. Just as if a female had a sex change and now looks like a male or a male has a sex change and becomes a female.

Just because you look the part doesn't mean that you fit the part.

Originally posted by seagull
If unwanted advances are made by men towards women, there are rules and regulations governing that...those same rules can be used to govern unwanted advances by men toward men, or women toward women.

sadly, many men are upset by unwanted advances, probably because it makes them question their own sexuality. "why did he think I was gay?" "am I gay?"

It's a compliment, regardless as to who is hitting on you.

reply to post by Crakeur


nevermind.

[edit on 29-1-2010 by Berserker01]

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Now that I've fully answered your hypothetical question, could you answer mine? What do you think is going to happen if a straight guy showers in front of a gay guy? Thank you.

Who knows, maybe nothing.

If you are under the assumption that I am grouping all gays in one category.. okay well saying gay is already a category, but I mean if you think that I think that ALL gays would stare then no I don't think that.

But they may be some, but who would know, how would you know while having shampoo in your eyes.

That's not the point though, it may happen and that possibility needs to be dealt with.

Originally posted by Crakeur
sadly, many men are upset by unwanted advances, probably because it makes them question their own sexuality. "why did he think I was gay?" "am I gay?"

It's a compliment, regardless as to who is hitting on you.

If being gay is not a mental defect then why do many gays act so feminine?
do they really like men or are they really just trying to be women?

what? not all gays act feminine?
Okay fair enough, then perhaps not all men or even many men dislike flirtatious advances by gay people because they become unaware of their own sexuality, but only because maybe they disagree with that way of life.

Stereotypes can go both ways
that argument you made is old and worn out in my opinion.

we can't debate an issue like this when... I could go so far as saying. sublimations are being made.

It being a compliment is in the eyes of the beholder.
It's not universal law

reply to post by Berserker01


Do they not bleed red when cut? Do they not feel pain? Do they not contribute to society?

They're different? What a shock... I'm different from you, too...yet, loe and behold I'm straight, too. But since I'm different, does that mean I can't serve?

Why does this bother you so much? There is little to no evidence that gays in the military are a threat to morale and behaviour.

not to mention all the foolish deviant behavior that would go on in the shower room and after lights out.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
You mean like our military men raping women right and left? Yeah, being straight really keeps the deviant behavior out of the military, huh?

Mentioning a potential wrong and you mentioning an even worse does not void the former.
Come on man!

Plus, I think the majority of soldiers would be uncomfortable sharing close living quarters with a homosexual,

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
"Uncomfortable"? I love this argument. It's the most ridiculous one of them all. So, the big manly, soldier is "uncomfortable" with homosexuals, huh? Awww... poor wus! I can just see the big soldier telling his Sargent that his pillow is "uncomfortable" or that he's "uncomfortable" having to march through the mud.

I'd love to see that. My answer to that is, "Well, GET comfortable, soldier"!!!

Wait... so big tuff men aren't allowed to feel uncomfortable?
I guess this means that big tuff men are also too manly to be gay too eh?

There is more humor than logic in your post.
But I guess that was the intention... right?

reply to post by seagull


Yes you and I bleed red.

Women and men also bleed red and yet we segregate them in the military.

Why should we ask straights to share the same facilities, rooms and sleeping tents with homosexuals when we don't ask men and women to share them?

You have to stop looking at the physical and start looking at the mental aspects.

Before I got married when I was in the military I had to share every barracks room I had with another guy. The rooms were very small, only enough room for two beds (sometimes room only enough for a bunk bed) two free standing closets, a desk and a chair. The room also had the sink in it and a closet sized bathroom that had the toilet and a standing shower.

Now imagine a man and a woman who are strangers being thrust into a space that small and told to live together. How do you think the morale in that room would be?

It is hard enough to have to share a room that small with a guy you don't know, let alone one that is openly gay.

Originally posted by Moonman1111STD's/HIV is the big problem if our military let nancy boys openly join.

I can definitely assure you that STD's/HIV are also prevalent among heterosexuals, and this is one "nancy boy" that I have a feeling you would not make such statements to if you saw me in person.

not to mention all the foolish deviant behavior that would go on in the shower room and after lights out.

I have a feeling you would find that "deviant" behavior without the don't ask/tell policy going away. Trust me, there are a lot of manly man Marines and Army personnel out there that participate in such "deviance." Google it.

Plus, I think the majority of soldiers would be uncomfortable sharing close living quarters with a homosexual, I know I would.

Funny, I've always been slightly uncomfortable sharing living quarters with a bunch of heterosexual men because of them feeling just that way.

---

Go Obama, I really appreciate you using the gays to garner your November party votes. That's all it is, if it was all about equal standing, there would be more than just gaining more fodder for insane wars.

Edit - Are/is, remember those plural changes!

[edit on 1/29/10 by niteboy82]

reply to post by ModernAcademia


Don't mind BH, apparently she thinks everyday military life is like Basic Training.

What she doesn't realize is that military life is like everyday life for civilians. They wake up, go to work and go home.

Sure they do field training and whatnot, but most of the time, unless they are deployed, it is rarely like what she believes it to be.

Originally posted by Sf18443
Fox news has just reported that Obama, in tonight's state of the union speech, will as congress to repeal the "Don't ask, don't tell" policy in the US military.

Do your self a favor, and don't just listen to Fox News. Obama implied in the state of the union address that gay people could, if they choose serve openly in the US military. It's designed to end the don't ask don't tell b.s. It has nothing to do with outing anyone. I would think to openly out someone would violate military rules. If someone wants to stay in the closet, let them. If not it won't make any difference.

People should be judged by what they do, not what they are. If a straight man acted in an improper manner towered a women in the service, the military legal system would come crashing down on their head. The same rules of proper behaivour and self control have to apply to gays as well.

Originally posted by Berserker01
The military will never force straight and homosexual soldiers to shower together.

I didn't say they would. I was simply answering a hypothetical question put to me by Modern Academia.

You forgot about the ones who are already serving that will not get the chance to weigh that option.

Too bad for them.

A bunch of people who will never serve in the military, or have any intentions of joining the military are the ones yelling about this (I would wager everything I own that you fit in that category). They are willing to disrupt the lives of hundreds of thousands for the sake of a couple of hundred.

You're right. I have never been in the military. That's irrelevant. That doesn't mean I can't imagine how it is. I've known plenty of people in the military. ANd there are plenty of people who have served or are serving now who agree with me.

To use your own reasoning.

If you are gay and cannot help but to express it then don't join the military.

That would be fine if straight people were ALSO prohibited from expressing their sexuality in any way, like never mentioning their wife, husband, never flirting with anyone, never showing any pictures of their loved ones, etc. What I want is equality.

Originally posted by Berserker01
A homosexual male is not the same as me. Physically we are the same, but mentally we are differant.

A high-maintenance woman who is the CEO of a corporation and drives a Jaguar is not the same as me. Physically, we are the same, but mentally we are different. She's still the same gender as I am.

Originally posted by ModernAcademia
I mean if you think that I think that ALL gays would stare then no I don't think that.

So that's what would happen? Someone would STARE at you? And you think that needs to be dealt with? That's what you're so afraid of? Tell me... How does someone staring at you hurt you?

If being gay is not a mental defect then why do many gays act so feminine?
do they really like men or are they really just trying to be women?

Your ignorance of the LGTB world is a discussion for another thread.

It being a compliment is in the eyes of the beholder.
It's not universal law

The fact is, you can't control other people. It is not for you to say whether someone looks at you or not. On the street or in the shower. Other people's actions cannot be controlled by you.

Originally posted by ModernAcademia
Wait... so big tuff men aren't allowed to feel uncomfortable?
I guess this means that big tuff men are also too manly to be gay too eh?

Sure they're allowed to be uncomfortable. Let them tell their CO about it. See what he/she says. Putting words in my mouth doesn't strengthen your argument.

Originally posted by Berserker01
It is hard enough to have to share a room that small with a guy you don't know, let alone one that is openly gay.

You're forgetting that gays are ALREADY in the military! They're already showering with the straight guys and sharing small spaces. They're already looking at other guys' bodies and perhaps having dreams about them at night. It's amazing to me that some people can pretend that the military is made up of straight people, as long as they don't have to know about it. They convince themselves that something would change if the gays were "out". It wouldn't!

Originally posted by Berserker01
What she doesn't realize is that military life is like everyday life for civilians. They wake up, go to work and go home.

My point is that people in the military are asked to do SO much that someone looking at their body seems pretty trivial. Unless they're homophobic, that is.