To Those Who Think 9/11 truthers are crazy

Here is the saddest thing of all.

If it were to come out that 911 was orchestrated by America on somewhat a large level... people wouldn't do anything but whine and complain like we are doing now.

Originally posted by Neo-V™
How so? I've got a mind of my own, so I'll decide my own truths thanks, the point is, if it wasn't for "independent media" sites, there is a lot of things we wouldn't know because they would have gone unnoticed, and there isn't much nowadays that does.

Dude, are you for real? These so-called "independent media" stes are nothing but internet web sites, and anyone can create a web site and say anything they want. YOU can create an independent media site, if you wanted. Yeah, we see the Loose Change web site and we're impressed by its professional looking layout, but behind the scenes it's really being run by a bunch of college kids out of their dorm room.

Just becuase it's independent it doesn't mean the material it contains has any more credibility. I shouldn't have to point that out.

LOL, they're trying to get you to question things, and no doubt there has been some inaccuracies, which thanks to the art of discussion and debate get ironed out, but that doesn't mean because of one bad 9/11 film everything being said is rubbish.

I've seen many of these web sites and looked at their material, and I can cay with 100% certainly that it's not some of the time or even most of the time, but rather ALL of the time, these web sites are deliberately withholding some critical piece of information that, if we knew about it, it would convince us of the exact opposite of what they're trying to convince us of.

Pick a conspiracy website, any conspiracy web site, and I'll prove it to you.

Or from their perspective, a retaliatory attack for the years of suffering the West has inflicted over there, or not at all and was a false flag designed to get us where we are today.

Seeing how the entire muslim world went ape s**t after Denmark published a bunch of cartoons of Mohammed in their newspapers, and muslims in Indonesia went ape s**t after their courts said non-muslims could use the word, "Allah", you already know which scenario sounds like the better explanation.

reply to post by GoodOlDave


Ok, when I say what we know and do not know, let me assure you Im not saying it didnt happen that way, Im merely stating that we dont KNOW that it did; from a strictly "Rene Descartes" way of thinking. Personally, I have not spoken with these witnesses, nor have I seen interviews with them...Therefore I do not KNOW... I remember I was in Graffonweir (sp?) Germany, prepping for a training exercise while I watched the twin towers being struck on live news....however I saw NO coverage of the pentagon. I can only KNOW (most of) what i have seen....You tracking?

reply to post by GoodOlDave


Sure dave, we all know the reason for 911

Bush wanted to push forward the PNAC agenda.

something else that confounds me is ...

knowing the controversy surrounding this case ... how come osama bin laden (assuming he really does want to blow up america) doesn't just put out one of his infamous videos and claim he was just an fbi or cia pawn and that he really had little or nothing to do with 9/11?

what better way to rip a country apart then that?

Here's what makes me laugh like a good joke:

After 8 1/2 years Osama Bin Laden is apparently still sitting in a cave somewhere in fair health with his doctor and the kidney machine attached to him. Or he's so good at hiding that even the CIA can't find him after using their highly efficient Echelon and Predator drone system to murder numerous Al Quaida leaders. There's just this one Bin Laden who is so impossible to track down and kill. Very peculiar...

What was even funnier was that when they presented a photo of what Bin Laden could look like today, the CIA received complaints from a Spanish lawmaker whose photo they had used to show the world Bin Laden's possible face today. Are they really such dumb dumbs?

Anyway, I would recommend that you read Jim Marrs' book called The Terror Conspiracy.

In his book he presents you with the already existing facts that are not even mentioned on ATS, and of course others that have been discussed here numerous times.

reply to post by blood0fheroes


How did they present DNA evidence to the relatives?

The following approach was applied to the recovery of Pentagon Incident fatalities: When a victim was located, work in the area was halted to protect the body, personal belongings, and evidence. An FBI evidence team (one of several on constant standby in front of the collapse) would document the site and gather evidence. If physical extrication was required, a Rescue Squad from the assigned US&R task force was given this task. The next step in the process was a Military Mortuary Team who collected and removed the victim from the building.

Well they asked the families for personal items, toothbrushes, hairbrushes
and other items to extract DNA from, Then went to work matching
remains to samples provided by relatives

Nuclear DNA testing (along with dental records and fingerprints) of the remains from the victims aboard American Airline (AA) Flight 77 and within the Pentagon was useful for identifying 178 of the 183 victims. Five missing individuals (four within the Pentagon and one aboard the airplane) could not be identified due to lack of biological material from the crash. Five remaining nuclear STR profiles were obtained from the crash site that did not match any references for the victims. These profiles were thought to represent the terrorists aboard the flight. The 40 victims aboard the United Airline (UA) Flight 93 that crashed near Shanksville, PA, were also identified by nuclear DNA testing, dental records, and fingerprinting. Four nonmatching nuclear DNA profiles were also obtained from the crash site and again tentatively ascribed to the terrorists.

Not surprisingly relatives of hijackers refused to provide samples and denied they were involved.

No problem - by process of elimination anything not matched was a
hijacker Guess what? Came up with 5 unmatched profiles
In the the unmatched profiles were a set of brothers - again guess what?
There were a pair of brother among the hijackers

The only two brothers who died at the Pentagon on 9/11 were hijackers Nawaf and Salem al-Hazmi. Remains of two brothers were identified by DNA:

"The DNA results strengthened the hypothesis that two of the terrorists were brothers, as indicated by other evidence. Two of the terrorist STR profiles aboard the AA Flight 77 gave a sibling index greater than 500. To further test the hypothesis of maternal relatedness, AFDIL sequenced the HVI and HVII regions of mtDNA for these individuals. The sequences generated did match in HVI and HVII, which is consistent with a maternal relationship between the two men."–www.cstl.nist.gov... (p. 83)

reply to post by demonseed


You're missing a very important piece to the puzzle. The government HAS answered all the questions. Certain people just can't accept their answers. Just because the answers aren't the ones you want to hear, doesn't mean the answers haven't been given.

reply to post by dalepmay


Give some examples?

1. How did the buildings collapse so perfectly all in a simultaneous fashion, despite building 7 not being hit by a plane?

2. Why was Building 7 not even mentioned in the 9/11 Commission Report?

3. Why were interceptor jets not scrambled for more than 30 minutes after it was obvious that four airliners had gone off course?

4. Why did the missile batteries at the Pentagon fail to stop the strike on the Pentagon?

5. Why were the fighter jets at Andrews Air Force Base just 12 miles from D.C. never scrambled? But rather jets from Virginia that arrived too late because they were not flying at maximum speed?

6. Why has their been little or no mention of the NORAD exercises in the major media or the 9/11 commission report? How come a similar exercise occured on 7/7 in London?

7. Why was vital evidence, including the buildings' structural steel, destroyed through rapid removal and destruction by US government officials with no investigation?

8. Why did Flight 93 leave behind an 8-mile-long debris trail before being destroyed?

9. Why did the US government not respond to warnings from a dozen countries that an attack on American soil was imminent?

10. How come nothing was done when the Pentagon officers identified Mohammed Atta as a potentially dangerous member of Al Quaida a full year before the 9/11 attacks?

11. How did certain people know to short sell American and United Airlines stocks as well as Morgan Stanley (occupied 22 floors of the WTC) stocks ahead of the attacks?

These are just some questions that you will also find in the Jim Marrs Terror Conspiracy book. The list could go on, but I don't want to bore everyone.

Originally posted by GoodOlDave

The only way someone can look at the events of the Pentagon attack and come away with thinking, "that was a cruise missile and all the eyewitnesses in the area were secret gov't disinformation agents"

Actually, NO.

MOST 9/11 Truthers might believe that, but not all.

It is actually feasible that almost the entire US Government and Pentagon was NOT involved. All criminology basically boils down to:-

- MEANS
- MOTIVE
- OPPORTUNITY

If hypothesis, such as the 9/11 Commission Report or "Popular Mechanics" theories are not feasible on ONE of these grounds it must be discarded.

The idea that hundreds of Government people in the US were involved in a big conspiracy is also ludicrous as it would be impossible to prevent someone from breaking loose and "confessing", so there has to be another possibility...which there is.

Another basic concept of criminology is "Who was at the scene of the crime?" One particular group is always ignored even though they are clearly in the Pentagon photos.

Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's character Sherlock Holmes once said that when all that is impossible is removed, whatever remains must be the facts, however imporbable it might seem.

is becuase they got that idea from one of those damned fool conspiracy web sites trying to get people all paranoid over shadows.

And claiming that AL Qaeda has a conspiracy with the Palestinians, the Iranians, Saddam Hussein etc to hide in the shadows of the USA is not paranoid?

The word HYPOCRITE comes to mind.

the "give us your money and we'll tell you the truth behind 9/11"

...So instead we should support the "give us your tax dollars and we'll tell you the truth about Osama" ?

Osama Bin Laden is dead.

Nothing to see here folks, move along.

Just another fairy tale to put fear in to the double digit IQ morons.

Originally posted by MightyAl

4. Why did the missile batteries at the Pentagon fail to stop the strike on the Pentagon?

There are only two ways to beat the Pentagon batteries.

1. The batteries are deliberately stood down. Conventional thinking by 9/11 Truthers supports this, but it does not stand up. It would require a massive conspiracy that would involve so many people that isomeone by now would have broken cover.

2. There is a quirk in the batteries computers. This quirk was actually revealed at the time of the Falklands War. The British had no real problem dealing with whatever the Argentinians threw at them except the EXOCET MISSILE. The only defence that the British had against the EXOCET was to line up sailors and officers along the sides of their ships armed with binoculars in the hope that it would give them 10-20 seconds of last resort evasive action if attacked. The Exocet sank HMS ANtelope, HMS SHeffield and the Atlantic Conveyor. The reason why the EXOCET was so destructive was ludicrous, because it was made by the French. The follwoing was revealed by the newspaers in the UK at the time... Fearing a possible war or sea battle with the Warsaw Pact, almost all NATO computer/radar systems were programmed the same way. Realising that any future sea battle would be so utterly lethal, the planners concluded that radar operator would have only split seconds to make recognition and response actions and so needed their screens as clear and uncluttered as possible. Hence, NATO systmes, inclding NORAD and the Pentagon batteries only react to and display four types of flying objects on their screens:-

- Your own country's missiles and planes.
- Your enemy's missiles and planes
- Civilian missiles and planes.
- Unidentified missiles and planes.

One big group of flying objects was programmed in to be ignored, missiles and planes belonging to YOUR ALLIES. Hence the EXOCET, as it had been built in France was invisible to the British ships during the Falklands War.

It therefore follows that the only things that could have beaten the Pentagon batteries and Norad must have been a missile or military plane from a close ally of the USA.

Now check out who had the MEANS, and the possible list of countries who had a cruise missile or weapon that could have done this comes down to France and the UK.

I have also then checked on OPPORTUNITY. The British had a nuclear submarine with a full compliment of Tomahawk missiles that left port in the UK bound for the Far East in early September 2001. This would have put it off the eastern seaboard of the USA at about 9/11. Also, when it arrived in the Far East, 6 of its missiles had been used.

Interestingly not all the USA Radar systems are on the Nato standard. One of then which was stillon an antiquated one was USAAF Langley who dispatched its jets to Whiskey 386, a patch of sea off the eastern seaboard of the USA. Truthers conclude generally that they were being got out the way, but no-one has apparantly considered that they correctly identified where the attack was coming from.

So, who controls the British missiles? WHo loads them on the ships and even organises what their paintwork looks like? When Tony Blair came to power, despite his Labour Party being dead against contracting out, he hived off the maintenance of the UK's submarines and missiles to a private contractor. ANd who is that contractor? Kellogg Brown and Root, a subsidiary of Halliburton which has close links to Dick Cheney.

Try checking all the other events and you will find that Kellogg Brown and Root have MEANS MOTIVE and OPPORTUNITY at each and every point to have done 9/11, almost single-handedly, needing almost damn all help from the Pentagon or the rest of the Government, save only for access to the WTC where Jeff Bush's company ran the security.

Originally posted by dalepmay
reply to post by demonseed

 

You're missing a very important piece to the puzzle. The government HAS answered all the questions.

The answers by the Government are roughly along the lines of...

What is 2 + 2?

Governement answer... A lobster.

Originally posted by Sean48
reply to post by GoodOlDave

 

Sure dave, we all know the reason for 911

Bush wanted to push forward the PNAC agenda.

No. There is no evidence for this being the central MOTIVE. This is a GROSS ASSUMPTION.

It is intellectually disonest to compare the two.

A groundless and utterly false statement.

For one thing, I don't ever recall the entire muslim world rioting and burning buildings down from a Danish newspaper printing cartoons of Bush. Do you?

Your poor memory hardly changes who was guilty.

Bush is clearly on record making it clear that he will deal ruthlessly with anyone who stands against any enemy of his family. There is an appalling list of people who have spoken out against the Bush family only to wind up in the morgue. Likewise anyone who refuses to accept the 9/11 Commission version of events is being clearly singled out, just liek here and now, for a McCarthy style treatment.

Originally posted by mmiichael

Originally posted by aristocrat2.

Secret Society of Al Qaeda attacks Pentagon and World Trade Center in order to achieve world domination by Islam...
YOUR CONCLUSION: SENSIBLE THINKING, PERSON IS SANE.

Better take it up with people like Khalid Sheikh Mohammed.

NO. It is better to take it up with you as you actually believe this garbage.

Khalid Sheikh Mohammed.
He planned and co-ordinated a number of terrorist attacks and has confessed to working on 9/11 providing named, locations, dates.

A laughably unreliable witness. How can testimony given under torture be worth a nickel?

Or debate with hundreds of independent journalists worldwide who have interviewed numerous people involved.

What people and what journalists? The fact remains that all the "official story" is based on knee-jerk reactions and people making emotional wild statements.

Or try to figure out how all those money transfers, purchase orders, recorded communications, form a dozen countries all corroborate the story.

A CHEEKY BALD LIE. The money transfers and insder trading all leads back to the CIA and FBI top brass.

And go on those Islamic websites and ask why al Qaida has taken credit for their various attacks including 9/11 over the past decade.

..For the same reason that Saddam Hussein claimed responsibility for an IRA pipe-bomb attack on the British Prime Minister's residence in London during the first Gulf War when he had nothing to do with it whatsoever.

Maybe a few thousand Arabs in half a dozen Middle Eat countries are all lying too.

...Or maybe they're all just a figment of your wild imagination.

Originally posted by MightyAl
4. Why did the missile batteries at the Pentagon fail to stop the strike on the Pentagon?

and just what missile batteries are these? Care to show pictures of them? What sort of SAM do they have?

[edit on 25/1/10 by dereks]

I think that 9/11 has gone on long enough, Yes people good innocent hard working people died, but how long is this war going to go on.

The truth should always be spoken, but from politicians and parliaments, governments. i am affraid that your going to be fighting a loosing battle. We all from every walk of life and every destination, are always going to want to hear the truth, and expect the truth, from the people that supposedly take care of our countries, but it is not going to happen anytime soon i doubt.

Originally posted by aristocrat2
There are only two ways to beat the Pentagon batteries.

1. The batteries are deliberately stood down.

what missile batteries are you on about?

The Exocet sank HMS ANtelope,

No they did not, HMS Antelope was hit by a bomb, which exploded whilst it was being disarmed.

One big group of flying objects was programmed in to be ignored, missiles and planes belonging to YOUR ALLIES. Hence the EXOCET, as it had been built in France was invisible to the British ships during the Falklands War.

Garbage, more misinformation from you!

Also, when it arrived in the Far East, 6 of its missiles had been used.

Source for that claim? Anyway, pity it was not a Tomohawk thet hit the Pentagon!

One of then which was stillon an antiquated one was USAAF Langley

WTF is USAAF Langley? Exactly what "antiquated radar" did the base have?

was coming from.

So, who controls the British missiles?

The poms, of course

WHo loads them on the ships and even organises what their paintwork looks like?

The poms once again

When Tony Blair came to power, despite his Labour Party being dead against contracting out, he hived off the maintenance of the UK's submarines and missiles to a private contractor.

Source for that claim?

Nothing to see, just another "truther" making things up about 9/11

[edit on 25/1/10 by dereks]

I do not think Truthers are crazy. I think “un-Truthers” are crazy as well demonstrated in this thread.
I see the same old bunch of un-Truthers in here attacking Truthers in every 911 thread. In my opinion I believe it is a game with some of them, also to vent their hatred towards Truthers for exposing the government lies. They cannot take it out on the government they are helpless.
Most children do not know how to debate. Most of the Time I ask for proof, or ask them a question which they mostly refuse to answer, or ask to see sources, all I get is nothing.
Sometimes, I get the feeling I am debating an angry child, because of their behavior.

In my opinion, I see more problems with people who cannot deal with the truth and will not accept the truth for many reasons, some because of their loyalty to our government, military, political party, and their egos, and high school kids in here playing their games of you are “wrong” and I am “right” and I get the last negative word against every Truther that I can. Then there are those that are paid to distract the flow of information, to get people from learning the truth, and then you have your paid disinformationist whose job is to attack the poster presenting creditable information, any information, on any topic.

Therefore, we have different groups of people with different agendas, and that is what the Truth movement is up against.

You see, it does not matter where Truthers come from, or what their profession are, because we all have one “common goal” and that is uncovering and spreading the Truth.

It is people who are completely in denial, or have an evil agenda, who call Truthers crazy, nut jobs, lefties, twofers, lairs, delusional, deranged, and “living in a fantasy world”…

No it not the Truthers that are crazy, it is the other way round.
It must be madden to support a proven lie that is crumbling everyday. Some of you OS believers cannot grab a hold of anything as you are falling, because nothing is solid enough, tangible. or creditable that can support your downfall of the OS, nothing.