To Those Who Think 9/11 truthers are crazy

Originally posted by Demoncreeper


The change:

Is the feeling inside everyone RIGHT NOW. Some people feel it as the "apocalypse", or the "financial crisis" or "NWO" take over. Or the second coming, etc...etc..

Point is, we are on the breaking point of some change. But it has to happen. Everyone cries for change, but then they resist because they fear it is one of the worse things... But...change is rarely a smooth transition.

I can't stand when people make mention of this 'feeling within us' of some change coming, some major apocalyptic world changing event. People have been crapping their pants over this for hundreds of years. There's always going to be people who think the end of the world is around the corner, or they're about to be enslaved by the authorities or some sort of SHTF scenario. Does it ever come? Well, it hasn't yet, and that's no reason to think it's more likely to happen any time soon. It's just some engrained fear and a possible subconscious want for this event to take place. I know I sort of want it to happen just to get out of the office life and go live in the wilderness and hunt for my food and make what I need. However, I'm quite aware that this is really not likely to happen any time soon.

So, the point I'm trying to make here is: Just because lots of people feel like a big change is coming, doesn't mean anything is going to happen.

Originally posted by GorehoundLarry

We were attacked because we have troops in the Middle East. We were attacked because we stick our nose in where it does not belong. We were attacked because of our support for Israel.

There is no reliable evidence to support this motive. Your statements are just a wild conspiracy theory with nothing to back it.

Originally posted by Carseller4
I thought Popular Mechanics put all this nonsense to rest?

A laughably unreliable source.

Originally posted by Carseller4

I guess not.

Since when does guessing form the basis of a criminal investigation?

Originally posted by Carseller4

Not all crazy people are truthers, but all truthers are crazy!

That is nothing but a wild conspiracy theory with no evidence to back it.

Originally posted by GoodOlDave

3) ... Why does every conspiracy just have to involve secret societies trying to take over the world?

So, let's follow your logic here...

Secret Society of Al Qaeda attacks Pentagon and World Trade Center in order to achieve world domination by Islam...
YOUR CONCLUSION: SENSIBLE THINKING, PERSON IS SANE.

Secret Society of Bush/Cheney clique attacks Pentagon and World Trade Center in order to achieve world domination by corporate interests...
YOUR CONSPIRACY: CONSPIRACY THEORY, PERSON IS INSANE.

Originally posted by The_Zomar

No, Sorry Dave but you cannot speak for everyone. It just doesn't work that way.

I know it wasn't a plane that hit the pentagon because there was no wing damage. Its common sense, something that you don't seem to use too often.

[edit on 24-1-2010 by The_Zomar]

No, rather, it's common sense that if we don't have any expertise in plane crash forensics, it's ridiculous to claim we ought to know what a crash site should or should not look like.

So what's your background in crash site forensics, may I ask? Since you're lecturing me on common sesne, I presume you're basing your assessment on your own personal analysis of prior plane crash sites, rather than just looking at pictures and quoting rubbish off some conspriacy web site...RIGHT???

Originally posted by aristocrat2
Secret Society of Al Qaeda attacks Pentagon and World Trade Center in order to achieve world domination by Islam...
YOUR CONCLUSION: SENSIBLE THINKING, PERSON IS SANE.

Secret Society of Bush/Cheney clique attacks Pentagon and World Trade Center in order to achieve world domination by corporate interests...
YOUR CONSPIRACY: CONSPIRACY THEORY, PERSON IS INSANE.

It is intellectually disonest to compare the two. For one thing, I don't ever recall the entire muslim world rioting and burning buildings down from a Danish newspaper printing cartoons of Bush. Do you?

The longer someone spends in denial, the more stupid they are for not seeing such a blatant truth in the first place. Therefore, those who have not realized the deception by now are thoroughly programmed into their emotional and belief structure.

To attack something so monolithic to their current state of mind is a personal attack against themselves because in their minds they have been complicit with the lie. To claim that the government is responsible is like saying THEY are responsible, which is actually not far from the truth.

Ok i'll bite. In order to decide what we do not know, lets examine what we DO know:

1. We know the government claims a 757 crashed into the pentagon, the ensuing fire vaporized all remains of said aircraft, but human dna was still present to identify victims remains to their family members.

2. JP-8, or jet fuel, is supposedly the only accelerating chemical that was present in said fire.

3. JP-8 burns, at its hottest at approx. 1,000 degrees Celsius.

4. 757's are made from aluminum, and titanium.

5. aluminum MELTS at approx. 1,700 degrees Celsius....titanium at approx. 1,668. Neither could be Vaporized below 6,000 degrees Celsius.

The question raised from this, is such: If the fire was hot enough through some unknown means to vaporize aluminum and titanium, how was is somehow magically NOT hot enough to allow for dna remains?

My logical conclusion? Either some unknown chemical compound was present in the structure of the pentagon itself that can both vaporize a jet, and preserve dna - OR No plane crashed at the pentagon.

Shall we debate?

Originally posted by aristocrat2.

Secret Society of Al Qaeda attacks Pentagon and World Trade Center in order to achieve world domination by Islam...
YOUR CONCLUSION: SENSIBLE THINKING, PERSON IS SANE.


Better take it up with people like Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. He planned and co-ordinated a number of terrorist attacks and has confessed to working on 9/11 providing named, locations, dates.

Or debate with hundreds of independent journalists worldwide who have interviewed numerous people involved.

Or try to figure out how all those money transfers, purchase orders, recorded communications, form a dozen countries all corroborate the story.

And go on those Islamic websites and ask why al Qaida has taken credit for their various attacks including 9/11 over the past decade.

Maybe a few thousand Arabs in half a dozen Middle Eat countries are all lying too.

reply to post by blood0fheroes

1. We know the government claims a 757 crashed into the pentagon, the ensuing fire vaporized all remains of said aircraft, but human dna was still present to identify victims remains to their family members.

2. JP-8, or jet fuel, is supposedly the only accelerating chemical that was present in said fire.

3. JP-8 burns, at its hottest at approx. 1,000 degrees Celsius.

4. 757's are made from aluminum, and titanium.

5. aluminum MELTS at approx. 1,700 degrees Celsius....titanium at approx. 1,668. Neither could be Vaporized below 6,000 degrees Celsius.

The question raised from this, is such: If the fire was hot enough through some unknown means to vaporize aluminum and titanium, how was is somehow magically NOT hot enough to allow for dna remains?

My logical conclusion? Either some unknown chemical compound was present in the structure of the pentagon itself that can both vaporize a jet, and preserve dna - OR No plane crashed at the pentagon.

Shall we debate?

The remains of the occupants (passengers/crew/hijackers) were carefully mapped

Below: location of human remains. An exhibit from the Moussaoui trial. Blue ovals show flight 77 victims; orange ovals, Pentagon workers; black ovals, unidentified (there were also fatalities on the

Notice location of the blue ovals.

Aluminium melts at 660 C (1220 F) - in reality much of the plane was notburned or vaporized as you contend, but smashed by the impact into
small fragments - metallic confetti so to speak. It is difficult to see in
photographs

Also the largest heaviest pieces, landing gear/jet engines. would survive
the fires as they did

Debris at exit hole in C ring wall - notice is not burned

Originally posted by Neo-V™
You might be surprised at how much of what comes from "conspiracy sites", actually originated from the mainstream, and funnily enough, you'll also find on those sites information to support your claim at number 3.

No I'm NOT surprised, mainly, becuase I already know these damned fool web sites are taking otherwise ordinary material and deliberately misrepresenting it for their own agenda. When we see, for example, Loose Change displaying a photo of a group of men carrying some giant blue thing and we're told that these are gov't agents carrying some mysterious covered object from the Pentagon crash site, we're obviously going to think something suspicious is going on. When later we find out that this was a photo of emergency workers bringing a triage tent INTO the Pentagon crash site, that's when we know the people behind these damned fool conspiracy web sites are a bunch of con artists lying to us and deliberately trying to get us paranoid over nothing.

Simply saying, "they got their information from mainstream sources" is completely meaningless.

So you would like to see one then? Then hows about supporting those calling for one, instead of saying everything "is complete rubbish", especially when a lot of people calling for one are saying what you yourself say, which I'm now going to address.

Yes, I would like to see one, but at the end of the day, it wasn't gov't incompetence that caused the attack, it was muslim extremism and religious intolerance that caused the attack. Learning who a murderer stole his gun from doesn't change the fact that it was still the murderer who pulled the trigger.

Afghanistan.
That was the answer to 9/11/01 and there can be no other.
It may not be the truth but seems the only action taken.
So sounds crazy on both sides.
Then IRAQ went too far and incurred our wrath once again
amid oil controversies, WMDs and harboring terrorists.
Afghanistan harbored terrorists, a pipeline and drugs.
We have to pick apart the terrorists one by one like the Nazis.
Have no fear there is no hidden free energy this time as in WWII.
The free energy is on our side but we can't let it out.

Originally posted by blood0fheroes
Ok i'll bite. In order to decide what we do not know, lets examine what we DO know:

1. We know the government claims a 757 crashed

See what I mean. Why go to all the trouble of recreating a crash , why am I even asking.

Originally posted by blood0fheroes
Ok i'll bite. In order to decide what we do not know, lets examine what we DO know:

No, actually, what we DO know is this...

a) The Pentagon is in the middle of an industrial park and is right next to a major highway, so hordes of eyewitnesses saw the plane fly over their heads and hit the Pentagon. Conspiracy theorists' answer: they're all disinformation agents

b) gigantic amounts of aircraft wreckage was found at the Pentagon site, both all over the front lawn as well as inside: Conspiracy theorists' answer: all the wreckage was planted

c) The black box was recovered and the recorded contents showed it was from flight 77. Conspiracy theorists' reponse: The FAA is releasing fake information

d) The people on flight 77 were never seen again. Conspiracy theorists' response: they were never real people to begin with.

We can see a pattern is emerging, here: regardless of what evidence is presented showing it was flight 77 that hit the pentagon, the conspiracy theorists will simply invent yet another conspiracy theory to explain the previous conspiracy theories they want to believe. Thus, hundreds of preplanted disinformation agents acting as false witnesses, piles of manufactured aircraft wreckage planted in front of everyone in broad daylight, and hundreds more of nonexistant passenegrs and fake relatives of nonesistant passengers sound more logical than a muslim terrorist crashing a hijacked plane into a building. Apparently, muslims can never become terrorists, nor do they ever hijack planes, nor do they ever launch suicide attacks.

You've gotta be one real hard core Kool Aid drinker to continue lapping up this goofball nonsense these damned fool conspiracy web sites are serving us, at this point. It's as if you WANT these conspiracies to be true.

Originally posted by GoodOlDave
No I'm NOT surprised, mainly, becuase I already know these damned fool web sites are taking otherwise ordinary material and deliberately misrepresenting it for their own agenda.

How so? I've got a mind of my own, so I'll decide my own truths thanks, the point is, if it wasn't for "independent media" sites, there is a lot of things we wouldn't know because they would have gone unnoticed, and there isn't much nowadays that does.

Originally posted by GoodOlDave
that's when we know the people behind these damned fool conspiracy web sites are a bunch of con artists lying to us and deliberately trying to get us paranoid over nothing.

LOL, they're trying to get you to question things, and no doubt there has been some inaccuracies, which thanks to the art of discussion and debate get ironed out, but that doesn't mean because of one bad 9/11 film everything being said is rubbish.

Originally posted by GoodOlDave
Yes, I would like to see one, but at the end of the day, it wasn't gov't incompetence that caused the attack

What was it you said...

Originally posted by GoodOlDave
3) I personally do agree there's a conspiracy, but it's a conspiracy to cover up all the boneheaded incompetence in how badly they were slipping on banana peels in preventing and dealign with the attack.

So again, if my incompetence leads to to the death of one person and I'm punished, why shouldn't people in Government when it leads to thousands of deaths?

Originally posted by GoodOlDave
it was muslim extremism and religious intolerance that caused the attack.

Or from their perspective, a retaliatory attack for the years of suffering the West has inflicted over there, or not at all and was a false flag designed to get us where we are today.

Originally posted by GoodOlDave
Learning who a murderer stole his gun from doesn't change the fact that it was still the murderer who pulled the trigger.

If you know someone has not only stolen a gun, but is intent on using it to kill as many people as possible, and you don't think to tell anyone, depending where you live, you're going to end up in court.

Originally posted by blood0fheroes
the ensuing fire vaporized all remains of said aircraft,

Here we have a "truther" lie, when did they claim the whole aircraft was vaporised?

If the fire was hot enough through some unknown means to vaporize aluminum and titanium,

who says the plane was vaporised?

reply to post by thedman


To image one: A nice blueprint, to be sure. But does not explain how they claimed to be able to present DNA evidence to the victims survivors.

To images two and three, speaking strictly from the "official story", this


is taken from the official 911 report, and i must say those last two look nothing like other images of the pentagon.

As to the aluminum, thank you for the correction Not sure why that number was in my head. However I was pretty dead on with the titanium.
source

reply to post by dereks


From what I can gather you are partially correct, as am I. After reviewing the official 911 commission report again, I see no word whatsoever as to the remains, or lack thereof of AA 77. However I distinctly remember news reports from that time stating the plane had been vaporized upon impact. It seems this is merely memory from what I can find on the internet, and so I shall not place into the catagory of fact for this debate.

And unfortunately, it is bed-time for Bonzo now (maybe thats why my rebuttals are slightly lacking heh....) Shall we continue tomorrow, if possible?

while common sense and my gut instinct tells me that there is no way such a huge crime and cover-up could be pulled off by the american government ... it is hard to read the 'thruthers' arguments and not think, 'wtf'?

then this morning i watched the BBC's (yea i know, bbc ... boo hiss ... ) documentary on the 7/7 conspiracy and seen how easily facts can be twisted. one of the guys who convinced a lot of british muslims that 7/7 was an inside job by "pretending" to be a muslim himself ... was in fact some old irish crackpot. ugh!

but i also noticed that crackpot took a lot of his arguments straight from the 9/11 conspiracy.

years later i'm still undecided. just being a member of this site has shown me that anything and everything can be made into a conspiracy. just look at haiti ... apparently (in some minds), haarp or the americans caused that. pfff.

on the other hand ... radical conspiracy theorists could pave the way for real conspiracies to happen.

i'm leaning towards 9/11 not being an inside job. perhaps a lot of the truth has been hidden and that's what keeps this argument going. why? i dunno.

A lot of generalizations being put forward on the Pentagon crash. The plane hit the concrete barriers with such tremendous impact the front end was vaporized. There was a second explosion seconds later as the fuel stored in the wings blew up.

With the incredible momentum, 350 mph, the contents at the rear portion of the fuselage were thrust right through the gaping hole deep into the Pentagon itself.

Hundreds of professionals and volunteers were involved in the clean up. Numerous items were noted, some still intact, including seats, personal items of passengers, cabin equipment, etc.

Passenger remains were identified through a combination of DNA from flesh and hair, dental records, skeletal remains. There was nothing identifiable from a 2 year old girl onboard.

The plane was tracked in the air from the minute it left Dulles airport at 8:20 AM till it crashed at 9:37. All confirmed by the Flight Data Recorder. Phone calls were received form the flight.

Thousands saw the 90 ton plane flying perilously low over Washington-Arlington and many witnessed the actual impact.

Literally tons of evidence and the testimonies of hundreds watching are consistent. This is one of the most fully documented events in history. There never has been any question it happened as reported at the time.