Sorry, Vegans: Brussels Sprouts Like to Live, Too

Originally posted by rusethorcain

You can get all the B12 you need from flax seed

Are you sure about that? I have never heard this

Originally posted by rusethorcain
In fact almost every vitamin/mineral named can be sourced to 3 items: Wheat germ, oat bran, and brewers yeast.

All three of these are non foods imo(not meant for human consumption)

reply to post by Rawhemp


Once I took the vitamin mineral chart along with "most abundant natural source" for each item. The three most frequently occurring sources were those three for almost every vitamin and mineral there is. And the B12 flax thing is not accurate. Sorry I was thinking of Omega3's.

If you don't eat meat, you need B12, the "largest and most complex vitamin known to man" from www.healthaliciousness.com... AND "Vitamin B12 is required for proper red blood cell formation, neurological function, and DNA synthesis" from dietary-supplements.info.nih.gov...
Some brewers yeast is specially bred to include it. Brewers yeast is my favorite food because of this, and it has all the B vitamins, a bunch of minerals including copper and gold. People don't think it's really important but I think insufficient B12 is one reason why old people start to show their age.

Looking and checking to verify my facts which I realized were wrong when it suddenly hit me over my morning banana! Flax has Omega3s not B12.
I found this too which is pretty good vegan dietary food source info/excerpt


Excerpts from Brenda Davis link braindance.com...

[Calcium: Calcium is necessary for the maintainence of optimal bone health. However, calcium intake accounts for only about 11% of calcium balance. The most important factor in calcium balance is calcium excretion which is most adversely affected by protein and sodium. The more protein and sodium you consume, the more calcium you need. Thus people living in countries consuming a high protein, processed food diet (i.e. typical North American diet) require more calcium than those living in countries with a cereal-based food economy. Great plant sources of calcium include fortified soy milk, dark greens (broccoli, kale, collards, Chinese greens and other low-oxalate greens are best -- oxalates found in spinach, Swiss chard, rhubarb and beet greens bind with the calcium in these foods making it unavailable for absoption), raw almonds, sesame seed paste, legumes, figs and blackstrap molasses. Davis also mentioned that 50-70% of the calcium from most low oxalate vegetables is absorbable as compared to 32% in cow's milk.

Protein: She cites the World Health Organization's recommendation that 10-15% of your calories come from protein. In her book, Becoming Vegetarian, she gives specific recommendations for both vegetarians and non-vegetarians. When sufficinet calories are provided from nutritious plant foods, total protein intake is generally adequate.

Amino Acids: If protein intake is questionable, lysine is most commonly the limiting amino acid. If you focus on getting enough of this one, the others tend to take care of themselves. Including legumes (ie. beans, lentils, tofu) on a daily basis is the simplest way to do this. She states that soy provides an excellent balance of all essential amino acids and is the most versatile of all legumes. ]

braindance.com...





[edit on 2-1-2010 by rusethorcain]

reply to post by DevolutionEvolvd


Thanks for this thread DevolutionEvolvd. I completely agree with you...plants are alive too. Everything on this planet is alive so whatever we eat, we are shedding blood.

If some people don't think that plants bleed, then I ask for the thought experiment (because we've all done it before, why do it now that we know it hurts them): When a tree is cut, sap runs...blood. When you tear open a leaf from a live plant, the fluid that comes out is it's blood. You cannot run from bloodshed in order to survive.

Here is a good movie that shows how plants can sense distantly hurting of other life form. Life is more connected than we think it is.

HERE video.google.com...# is the documentary.

It also reminded me of Amazon tribes who discovered Ayahuasca - they would say that it was not an accident or experiment - they say plants told them the recipe.

It also reminds me of Avatar movie, of course - thanking life and borrowing energy.

Thank you for reading.

Thanks for this thread DevolutionEvolvd. I completely agree with you...plants are alive too. Everything on this planet is alive

Sure everything is alive, you are trying to somehow state that
alive=emotions.

Try staying in a comma for an year and see how many emotions you have.

You are alive are you not, but where are the feelings? they may cut off your head and you won't feel it.

so whatever we eat, we are shedding blood.

Yeah right,,plants=blood.

HERE video.google.com...# is the documentary.

It does not explain the proccess involved, it just expalins reactions.
Show me where it states that plants are capabile of thoughts and generate pain because information is proccessed and transformed in feelings.

You guys don't have zip.
All you do is post a bunch of links without anything at all to show for.

Originally posted by pepsi78

HERE video.google.com...# is the documentary.

It does not explain the proccess involved, it just expalins reactions.
Show me where it states that plants are capabile of thoughts and generate pain because information is proccessed and transformed in feelings.

You guys don't have zip.
All you do is post a bunch of links without anything at all to show for.

You are you saying that plants are just like rocks when it comes to being self-aware. That a plant's way of gathering and using information involves no awareness... it's on the same level of a computer's data sorting mechanism. Hence the plant doesn't sense "injustice" when it's baby plant is harvested and eaten... the mother has the same awareness level of a computer. Is this correct?

That argument supposes that life itself isn't implicitly self-aware, not even at a relative gradation, unless certain organs are involved.

How could anyone prove or disprove that?

You are you saying that plants are just like rocks when it comes to being self-aware. That a plant's way of gathering and using information involves no awareness...

Yes.

it's on the same level of a computer's data sorting mechanism.

Yes, a biological computer.

Hence the plant doesn't sense "injustice" when it's baby plant is harvested and eaten... the mother has the same awareness level of a computer. Is this correct?

There are plant toxins, plant spores and chemicals that are relised into the air. Other plants simply react to this, it does not mean the plant is crying
or the plant is sorrow, it means it's reacting to the enviorment.
Plants do not know how to cry or feel sorrow, they have no memory banks, no neurons to generate concepts and feel sorrow on an imaginary level.

That argument supposes that life itself isn't implicitly self-aware, not even at a relative gradation, unless certain organs are involved.

Well yes, if you are not aware then either you are alive and have no brains or you are nocked out.
For the sake of the argument if someone hits you on the head and then you wake up it was like 1 second for you and a whole hour for others that saw you sleep it out.
1 second because you were not aware. Time flys when you don't exist in your mind, because if you do not exist in your mind you are not aware, and if you are not aware then time does not exist, and you for your self do not exist until you come around again.

It's simple examples from humans, no brain, no time, no pain.

How could anyone prove or disprove that?

It's far fetched to say plants are aware, it's how you prove they are aware.

A virus is more complex than any plant in behavior, it will hide, attack cells, retreat and hide again, it will find weak spots, mutate to become more efficent, but it's not aware, it's just what it does because that is how it was built. It's complex just like DNA, it's just programming, it's programed to do that.

People tend to think that complex things that act in a logic way have feelings. Planets spin around the sun they are all round, they have a order and spin perfect, there are universal laws and everything has rules that they act by, plants are included into this.

I don't want to turn it in to a religios thing, but everthing has a blueprint, it's how they were designed by the creator, and you can see god, that is if you need to explain god existance, you can find the explenation in this things.

There are so many comlex things that will act like they are aware but they are not like a computer for example, it will even outsmart humans, and think very logical but it's not aware, you know a computer is not aware right?

if i could, i'd chose not to eat because i feel like i've killed something and that i'm a monster. but i have to eat in order to survive even though i'm a practicing vegetarian, eating cheese and stuff still (but i like spaghetti mostly.)

when i bite into a grape or tomato ... i feel like a killer. ..oh it gets better.

when i was younger (6? 8?) i'd eat some petals off of flowers when i was starving because i didn't want to eat food and i even felt bad for the flowers and asked for forgiveness.. i know, i know! it's weird!!! please forgive me, it's just the way i feel. i'm full of too much empathy and compassion and they're the worst emotions a person can ever have. but i know i'm not alone!! i think.. hope..

So what are we supposed to eat exactly? Granola?

reply to post by ohsnaptruth

I feel the same way too. I was not always like this. Somehow I don't know from where I got the concept that animals are moving around and are just like us. I percived their suffering. It's a true horror just when you cut your finger and you feel the pain, imagine how it is to get your head from your neck down cut off for a change. Humanity is arogant, some humans are like the cats you feed, they act the same, yet you tolarate cats. They know nothing of walking in someone else shoes and they find eating animals an oportunity rather than seeing things from a different perspective. In fact 99% of the times when someone eats meat they don't really think they are eating an animal but that it's food and that is it.
It's like feeding the stone age man that can't think beyond anything else.
I too eat meat and I want to let it go, I do consider everytime I eat meat, it's on my mind.

For me it's very wrong to eat things that move, smell, see and if probaly had to do it my self and kill to eat I don;t know if I could do it. If I had an alternative I would eat plants, but if there were no plants I would probaly die of starvation.

Originally posted by pepsi78

There are so many comlex things that will act like they are aware but they are not like a computer for example, it will even outsmart humans, and think very logical but it's not aware, you know a computer is not aware right?

I understand that a computer is not aware. Note that I referenced computers in my last post that you responded to, siting them in comparison to living creatures. I also know that cracks in the ground are not aware.

To say animals are less mechanistic than plants is a pretty philosophical statement. It's been stated that all life is mechanistic until some higher buddha-like consciousness is achieved.

I'm still not convinced that the "life-pulse" itself has no way of sensing itself being cut-off, or valuing itself without certain centralized parts like a brain and physical receptors.

The valuation may not be expressed in thoughts or feelings about itself being "valuable" but in certain physical actions that are life-affirming or life-valuing. Like simply having defense mechanisms that are life-protecting.

If a human dies on impact in an accident, and feels no pain or "injustice" about the event, since circumstances prohibited these responses in them, does that mean they died a "just" death? Does that mean it's okay to cut their life off, as long as their pain responses aren't triggered?

Originally posted by MarrsAttax
reply to post by technical difficulties

 

Well if you're saying that native americans killed animals purely because they liked the taste then, yes I guess I am. However, I think their meat eating was probably much more to do with subsistence than pleasure.

Even so I find it hard to reconcile a claim of love for something with killing it and eating it. Did Jeffrey Darmer love his victims?

www.youtube.com...

i know i'm late to repyling to this, are you comparing native americans to jeffrey dahmer?

Originally posted by dzonatas
At least, be bit conservative and take on being an Organic Omnivore!

i'm planning on it.

[edit on 18-1-2010 by technical difficulties]

ahem, plants are alive but not like animals or humans.

Plants are about as alive as human sperm, or less alive in some sense. Sperm is chemically programmed to seek out certain scents and find the goal and plants work the same way. They are living breathing organisms but they're basically braindead organisms that evolve to the situation... hmm that doesn't explain it.

Think of an "AI robot" but not being self aware, it can adapt and evolve to its surrounding and build on it's original building blocks but it is and isn't alive. Plants are all chemical, they are a result of certain conditions.

There is a really really complex explanation for all of this and it goes right back to how plant life develops and evolves. It's a machine that fuels itself.

And obviously this is my opinion but it makes a lot of sense at this point in time.

The way I see this is that plants have fruits and seeds that are very good for us and would help us achieve a healthy diet. The fruits and seeds are there for us to pick, otherwise they'll just fall to the ground, and make room for some new seeds and fruits to grow. Taking the fruits, the seeds doesn't hurt the plant, as the plant isn't hurt. So basically, most vegetables, fruits, good protein sources like lentils, beans, and many more should make up our diet without the risk of hurting life around us. At least that's the conclusion I reached on my own, when I had the same eating moral dilemma a while ago.

moral-based veganism is fine with me.

morals will always be relative.

it's when they want to pretend that it is the 'environmentally friendly' choice that i strenuously object.

hate to disagree with your premise, but many types of foods were DESIGNED by nature TO BE eaten.
for example, the apple is designed by nature to be eaten. the seeds of the apple, by design, are then excreted
in the feces which provides a fertile medium for the seeds to grow.
as a further benefit, the seeds are then excreted usually far from the original tree, increasing the biological range of the
apple tree.
but it's not just the apple that was designed by nature to be consumed.
virtually all fruits, berries, nuts, grains, legumes and many vegetables (e.g. tomatos, cukes, eggplants, etc..)
were meant to be eaten, usually to enhance growth of the next generation of the plant.

a vegan can easily choose foods that were designed to be eaten.

reply to post by DevolutionEvolvd


This is such a silly discussion really. I eat meat and plants. It is what humans have been doing since the beginning. If humans did not eat any meat, the world would be over run with animals which because of their natures reproduce far more often that humans.
To kill to sustain life in every aspect of the circle is what we, as a species, have done to get us to where we are today. From the tiniest little life form to the largest ones, we all, as earth dwellers have our roles.

One thing to remember to is that farms use pesticides. So even if you never eat any kind of meat the fruit and vegetables you eat had a hand in killing insects.

reply to post by DevolutionEvolvd


Oh snaps, whats will I eats now?
Starvation diet?