Sorry, Vegans: Brussels Sprouts Like to Live, Too

Originally posted by watcher73
And you never defined morality.

Which you cant do.

So you made this thread just to argue, and that is exactly what you got.

If you need the definition for morality, look it up. I hear www.lmgtfy.com...

As for the definition of moral vegetarianism, I defined it in the OP:

moral vegetarian--based on the belief that a vegetarian diet reduces bloodshed

-Dev

It is my conclusion that plants do not suffer because plants are not as an entity. For example an orange as a whole living thing, as in the orange being aware. I explained this, if the orange will be sliced in to 8 parts, the 8 parts will still react the same proving that the orange is not self aware.
If the orange would be aware it would stop on reacting once the orange was sliced, no one can kill an orange folks. For the orange to survive with it's awarenes it would need to have multiple awareness.

It's the whole idea of a brain, if I get shot in the head I will die.
My brain dies but my cells are still alive for a while, but I do not feel pain anymore even if I have nerves all over my body. Acording to plants that does not happen for some strange reason "because we say so ...so they say"

The notion of an object that is aware to still feel pain once it is separated
or cut it to peaces is beyond me.

Thank you, you have helped me take the next step in to becomming a vegetarian. It has convinced me that it's the right way to go regarding the moral factor.

Originally posted by arizonascott
snip

Talk about being off topic.

Originally posted by DevolutionEvolvd

Originally posted by watcher73
And you never defined morality.

Which you cant do.

So you made this thread just to argue, and that is exactly what you got.

If you need the definition for morality, look it up.

I hear www.lmgtfy.com...

As for the definition of moral vegetarianism, I defined it in the OP:

moral vegetarian--based on the belief that a vegetarian diet reduces bloodshed

-Dev

You missed the whole point which is not surprising.

YOU cannot define morality for ANYONE else.

reply to post by pepsi78


Thank you!

They just proved (well about 5 years ago) that fish do not feel or have a pain center.

Now we are supposed to think that plants feel pain and by pulling them from the ground to consume, it can hurt the entire local enviroment due to community connectivity?

That is crazy

Along with the current political banning of real beneficial vitamins - it sounds like someone does not want human beings to have natural vitamin packed and life giving veggies.

What a joke!

Eat your hot pockets, pizza with manufactured cheese and your MSG loaded cancer causing processed crap, because our planet that gave us life wants us dead! PLEAZE!

I am getting really ticked now

[edit on 29-12-2009 by arizonascott]

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Originally posted by pepsi78
It is my conclusion that plants do not suffer because plants are not as an entity. For example an orange as a whole living thing, as in the orange being aware. I explained this, if the orange will be sliced in to 8 parts, the 8 parts will still react the same proving that the orange is not self aware.
If the orange would be aware it would stop on reacting once the orange was sliced, no one can kill an orange folks. For the orange to survive with it's awarenes it would need to have multiple awareness.

It's the whole idea of a brain, if I get shot in the head I will die.
My brain dies but my cells are still alive for a while, but I do not feel pain anymore even if I have nerves all over my body. Acording to plants that does not happen for some strange reason "because we say so ...so they say"

The notion of an object that is aware to still feel pain once it is separated
or cut it to peaces is beyond me.

Thank you, you have helped me take the next step in to becomming a vegetarian. It has convinced me that it's the right way to go regarding the moral factor.

The orange is more comparable to your sex cells than to your brain. Would you feel pain if one of your sperm or ovum were cut to pieces? I know women feel pain during their menstrual cycle, but that's from muscular cramps, not the egg being crushed. It doesn't mean that women don't otherwise experience pain.

Originally posted by watcher73
I had a really long reply to this post and hit a button then it disappeared. I'm not going to do it all again so I will leave you with just this.

Really? If i feel passionate about something i would retype it. Of course i will let others speculate as to whether you actually had a full reply.

Originally posted by watcher73
My cursory search for the FDA RDA of b12 gave me the number 4 micrograms. Humans can store 2-4 GRAMS. This is well over a lifetime supply. I saw later that adults are now only recommended 1.5 MICROgrams a day. Well now we can store a few lifetimes supply. Then there is this

UK official recommendations have decreased in recent years, the body's needs having been previously over-estimated. Indeed, the Department of Health recognises that some people have lower than average requirements of B12. A whole lifetime's requirement of B12 add up to a 40 milligram speck of red crystals, about one-seventh the size of an average tablet of aspirin!

If peope can store a lifetimes supply thn how does anyone become deficient? The reason is because it is not as clear cut as you suggest and the article you quote above does not say people store their lifetime supply in their body it only states that the RDA has been overestimated. Tissue stores of B12 can be depleted whilst blood serum levels remain stable. Numerous medications and even natural stresses like illness can rapidly deplete B12 stores.

Seriously you just don't know enough about this to discuss it. Once again if we contain a lifetime supply of B12 then how does anyone, ever, despite being otherwise healthy become defficient? We are talking about individuals who are not on medications, who haven't been ill and can even be very health concious vegans who make sure to eat a wide variety of food.

Originally posted by watcher73
Now I would appreciate it if you werent so intellectually dishonest as to keep implying that cows have the huge intestinal tracts merely to get b12, They do not. The fact is plant material is hard to break down. They already have to consume huge quantities of grass to extract the necessary nutrients, not b12, its made right there.

Oh i wasn't saying it was merely for that, i was making the point that herbivores have longer intestinal tracts and sometimes multiple stomachs because the foods they eat are incredibly hard to break down and as we have different systems to them we evolved to eat meat along with vegetables for this very reason.

Originally posted by watcher73
People can eat a tiny amount of dirt and get a whole lifetime supply of b12. On top of that bacteria synthesize it right in our guts. The same as a cow. Whether or not cows ingest their own feces is besides the point, its probably not to get b12, but to get other nutrients. The b12 is produced inside them, in probably more than sufficient quantities.

The very fact that there only a few highly publicized cases of b12 deficiency should tell you something.

Yes it is produced inside of them because they chew the cud, this means it goes into their stomach, they then vomit it back up and chew it some more. This then goes into their intestinal tract, which is far longer than ours and so the bacteria have longer to consume the fibre and produce B12 as a side product, and a greater surface area to work on the food.

There are not only a few publicised sources the literature has plenty however of course not ever case will go into a journal. If i go to my doctor with that condition then he'll treat me and no one will ever hear about it. Of course not every, or indeed even the majoirty of cases end up where we can read about them.

However i found this during my research. It is an online article which quotes, with sources the rate of B12 deficiency in 174 strict vegans and vegetarians.

www.webmd.com...

From this article

In the July issue of the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, German researchers tracked 174 apparently healthy people living in Germany and the Netherlands.

They found that 92% of the vegans they studied -- those who ate the strictest vegetarian diet, which shuns all animal products, including milk and eggs -- had vitamin B12 deficiency. But two in three people who followed a vegetarian diet that included milk and eggs as their only animal foods also were deficient. Only 5% of those who consumed meats had vitamin B12 deficiency.

Feel free to read the source materials from this article, they are quote on page 2 of the article and come from respectable journals.

[edit on 29-12-2009 by ImaginaryReality1984]

Originally posted by watcher73



You missed the whole point which is not surprising.

YOU cannot define morality for ANYONE else.

You're still assuming that I'm arguing something. I'm simply asking for a discussion. That's it. We're not arguing the definition of morality, we're discussing the morality of vegetarianism/omnivorism.

-Dev

reply to post by STFUPPERCUTTER


I beg to differ with you. I for one am learning a lot from this thread and am glad that Dev started it, but it is indeed sad when attempts are made to derail this thread by getting off topic.

reply to post by jem78


1
Ok I will replace the orange with a tree. Is that ok for you?
So I will take a tree and chop it in to peaces, the parts from the tree
will still react, are all the parts now self aware each? If the tree was aware, it should of died when I cut it. What if I stab the tree in it's awarness? (where is the location of that)

Simply put if a tree has awareness how do you kill it since you can cut it in milon peaces and it would still react the same way to the enviorment.

I can't beilive I'm even debating this, it's childish to even consider that
plats are aware.

Plants may be alive, but awareness is long way down the road.
We can debate if insects have it, it's more accetable.

reply to post by pepsi78


The OP just said plants do react to physical stimulus. How is that not pain from a plants point of view? Seeds are a living thing too.

Cows eat grass, which is a perennial that grows back, the cow also fertilizes the field. It is a very moral life form.

You can't discriminate against a life form because you don't feel it feels pain.

Short of becoming a vampire, I don't see surviving without eating what is available to you.

[edit on 29-12-2009 by A52FWY]

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984

Really? If i feel passionate about something i would retype it. Of course i will let others speculate as to whether you actually had a full reply.

Really? Seems to me that you did just speculate.

If peope can store a lifetimes supply thn how does anyone become deficient?

Seriously stupid question. People can store gold yet most people dont have any. The answer is you have to have it in the first place to store it.

The reason is because it is not as clear cut as you suggest and the article you quote above does not say people store their lifetime supply in their body it only states that the RDA has been overestimated.

Probably because I dont like reading #ing mile long posts like yours and wont quote everything. Its stored in the liver.

Tissue stores of B12 can be depleted whilst blood serum levels remain stable. Numerous medications and even natural stresses like illness can rapidly deplete B12 stores.

So you cant see where its stored in my post yet your whole sentence here is derived from the very fact that it is stored.

Seriously you just don't know enough about this to discuss it. Once again if we contain a lifetime supply of B12 then how does anyone, ever, despite being otherwise healthy become defficient?

If you never get any b12 in your whole life how would you store it. Seriously you dont know enough to discuss this.

Oh i wasn't saying it was merely for that, i was making the point that herbivores have longer intestinal tracts and sometimes multiple stomachs because the foods they eat are incredibly hard to break down and as we have different systems to them we evolved to eat meat along with vegetables for this very reason.

Youre making assumptions about evolution. You dont know how or why we evolved our stomachs. Quite possibly its because we started eating plant material with less cellulose and has nothing to do with meat.

Yes it is produced inside of them because they chew the cud

Wrong its produced inside of them because the bacteria that produce it are there and those bacteria have a large quantity of food. It makes no difference to the bacteria how many times the cow chews it. They are specially adapted to break it down.

reply to post by tribewilder


Thanks, TW.

That really is the point of this thread. I've learned some things as well. There is no right or wrong, as far as morality is concerned. And the plant discussion is one that I think is valid.

We can argue facts when we discuss nutrition, in a thread that will be coming soon.

-Dev

reply to post by DevolutionEvolvd


I stopped drinking soda, stopped eating the MSG processed crap they offer in every store.

I eat organic raw leafy spinach cooked in a tablespoon of water with fresh garlic cloves, cilantro and sea salt.

I eat organic local tomatoes with fresh ground pepper and balsamic vinegar.

I started to eat 93/7 free range beef. I eat more deep water fish now along with raw seeds and fruits like apples, lemons and oranges

You know what happened - I lost 28 pounds, feel great and don't feel like eating junk when I am not hungry. I went for a physical and my Doctor said I am at optimal health, weight and fitness for my age at 41!

I was at a friends house recently for the holiday and made the mistake of eating some Doritos and a few other store crap items, only to be hungry right after and I actually became sick and expelled those foods in a fit I never want to repeat. What does that tell you.

I will never go back to the junk they create and offer in stores. If you don't eat live natural foods - you die! Plain and simple

I feel better than I have in 20 years - and there is a reason for that.

I take 2 to 3,000mg of vitamin C every day - and I have not been sick in 6 years.

There is a reason they don't want you eating live greens and veggies! There is a reason they don't want you taking "real" vitamins!

[edit on 29-12-2009 by arizonascott]

Originally posted by A52FWY
reply to post by pepsi78

 

The OP just said plants do react to physical stimulus. How is that not pain from a plants point of view? Seeds are a living thing too.

Cows eat grass, which is a perennial that grows back, the cow also fertilzes the field. It is a very moral lifeform.

You can't discrimnate against a lifeform because you don't feel it feels pain.

Short of becoming a vampire, I don't see surving without eating what is available to you.

It's not pain because there is no brain, it's just a reaction, where is the brain?????????? If they wack me in the head and leave me dead
,and let's say I have a gold tooth, if they pull it out I don't feel zip.
And under that tooth there is a nerve but since I';m dead in my brain I don't feel the nerve.

I have debated this, a virus is it aware? or are my antibodies aware?

They act even more elaborate than plants when it comes to defence and strategy.

Here is the thing - if you eat an animal - you are not only killing the animal - you are doing it for hardly any energy at all. That animal prob ate other animals which ate plants and you hardly get any energy from it. Plants however only get their energy from soil nutrients and the sun - this is the most efficient way to eat. In a way - eating an animal kills the ANIMAL AND MANY MANY MANY PLANTS.

In all honesty I am not against eating animals (although I do maintain the vegetarian lifestyle) it is simply a matter of efficiency for our planet, and we humans eat to much meat to maintain a balanced planet.

One also has to take into account that many moral vegetarians are that way based on animal cruelty on the farms and so on.

Edited because something went very wrong with this reply

[edit on 29-12-2009 by ImaginaryReality1984]

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
Feel free to read the source materials from this article, they are quote on page 2 of the article and come from respectable journals.

[edit on 29-12-2009 by ImaginaryReality1984]

Feel free to read your own article.

Or were you cherry picking quotes?

Even young, healthy, vitamin-taking meat-eaters may not be getting enough B12, according to Tufts University nutritionist Katherine Tucker, PhD.

In a study published three years ago, also in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, she found that nearly 40% of 3,000 adults under age 50 had blood levels of vitamin B12 low enough to cause problems.

reply to post by watcher73


What do ANY of these semantics have to do with the thread?

Or are you just put off by someone pointing out that a vegetarian/vegan diet isn't as healthy as you would like people to think?

Remember that you have to supplement your diet when you go vegan. Why is this again?