Sorry, Vegans: Brussels Sprouts Like to Live, Too

Originally posted by Nutter

You only doubt it because it goes against your belief system.

This is by far the dumbest argument anyone could ever make because it can instantly be turned around.

Sorry, you fail.

Carrots. Potatoes. Cabbage. Lettuce. All have to be killed to be eaten.

Tomatoe plants aren't perenial. So they need to be grown from seeds.

Cows and pigs are born from other cows and pigs.

Tomato plants are a perennial in their native land. You can also grow tomato plants easily from cuttings, or cell culture. They root very easily.

I have personally eaten a leaf of lettuce taken from a live plant and it has continued living. Your premise is false. I have eaten a carrot, thrown the top half, with no leaves into my worm bin, and watched it resprout. You can easily pull a potato from the root system without killing the whole plant.

Do you want to try again? Maybe this time you can say one thing that is true?

edit: I just realized its not quite the top half, but the top half inch or so where the leaves connect to the carrot, i could see someone saying you only ate half no wonder it sprouted, which is totally untrue.

[edit on 29-12-2009 by watcher73]

Originally posted by Rawhemp
A sound variety based vegan diets require absolutely no supplementation, b12 is the main reasoning to eat meat by most people but this is easily obtainable if you eat bugs in fruit or get unwashed produce from high quality organic soil.

How is eating bugs vegan?

I've also heard from a couple sources that oral sex is a good source to b12

.

Again. How is this vegan?

Almost all the longest lived people in the world follow a primarily plant based diet so its definitely healthy. The hunzas and vilcamba eat 1% animal products over a year(fermented milk for the most part), okinawans eat about 13% mostly from wild fish and seventh day adventis are lacto-ovo vegetarians.

Again. Not purely vegan if you eat meat sometimes. Correct?

Just to clear up some misinformation i saw someone post earlier in the thread, meat contains absolutely no essential protien that plants don't contain. Every single fruit actually contains all 8 essential amino acids.

Then why are vegan babies dieing of malnutrician?

Gotta love these threads tho, they are always free entertainment. They seem to bring out the best in ats'rs

Only the militant ones who can't fathom that they may be incorrect in their beliefs.

[edit on 29-12-2009 by Nutter]

Vitamin B12 is made by only one thing in nature, bacteria. Cows are vegetarian, so where do they get it?

I cant even believe that people who believe in UFOs, aliens, OOBEs, ghosts and every thing else under the sun has fallen for the old b12 deficiency CONSPIRACY.

Personally, I wonder if it is more cruel to be eaten by predators when you become the slowest one in the herd, or to die of old age, tended by doctors to the point where you have to wear diapers like an infant, and have physically decayed to a state of helplessness.

It is also produced by bacteria in our intestines (Herbert V. Vitamin B12: Plant sources, requirements, and assay. Am J Clin Nutr 1988; 48: 852-858.). From PubMed: : "...the human small intestine also often harbours a considerable microflora and this is even more extensive in apparently healthy southern Indian subjects. We now show that at least two groups of organisms in the small bowel, Pseudomonas and Klebsiella sp., may synthesise significant amounts of the vitamin."

Seriously one of the biggest conspiracies ever and none of you so called conspiracy theorists ever picked up on it.

I would say I am disappointed, but after a few debates here I know better.

Originally posted by watcher73
This is by far the dumbest argument anyone could ever make because it can instantly be turned around.

Sorry, you fail.

The first sign of a losing debator. Name calling.

Tomato plants are a perennial in their native land. You can also grow tomato plants easily from cuttings, or cell culture. They root very easily.

Tomatoe plants aren't perennial everywhere.

I have personally eaten a leaf of lettuce taken from a live plant and it has continued living.

Good for you. I bet you got a full stomach from that leaf, eh? How about all the nutrients you need to survive? Did that one leaf provide you with it?

Your premise is false. I have eaten a carrot, thrown the top half, with no leaves into my worm bin, and watched it resprout. You can easily pull a potato from the root system without killing the whole plant.

Carrots and potatoes are the root system of the plant.

So, I have a hard time believing you ate the root and the plant was able to resprout. Or did you only eat half the root?

Originally posted by watcher73

Originally posted by Nutter

You only doubt it because it goes against your belief system.

This is by far the dumbest argument anyone could ever make because it can instantly be turned around.

Sorry, you fail.

I don't agree in this instance as eating both vegetables and meat is not a belief, but rather natural.

In my opinion..

Originally posted by watcher73
More food = higher population = less food = less population.

Not too good at maths are you?

I am actually, the die off you talk of only happens when food gets low and that means rabbits would eat an entire field of food before their population dies off. So the rabbits live and the farmer has no crops before the animals die off. Why do you think culling happens? If it were not needed then farmers would not pay for it.

Condescention only works when you understand the scientific model and quote it correctly

Originally posted by watcher73

Why not, fox is mighty tasty!

Never eaten it but the reason i don't kill them is simple, they help keep the population of pests down naturally. You see i cull to help farmers have larger yields of crops not because i love killing and want to eat tasty meat, the nice meat is a side benefit.

Originally posted by watcher73

Until predation outstrips supply? How about until population outstrips supply. No instead you state it like a neverending expansion of animal life. Fail.

No i state it like the simple fact tht population will grow until food is low or predation is to high. The problem with the food being low is that animals will eat entire fields of crops and then there is no food for you. Again you ignore simple scientific models.

Originally posted by watcher73

Oh the pretty piksures are the proof.

What if I show you a picture of a meat eating bodybuilder that is half the size of another meat eating bodybuilder?

Actually the pictures are proof because the pictures posted in the other thread were of a world standard competition. How many Mr. Universes are vegan? The reason most eat meat is that it is the most efficient way of loading your body with protein. This is why they are bigger not to mention the testosterone boost that is associated with meat intake.

Originally posted by watcher73

Like the global warming models no doubt.

I don't really care what you think of global warming and to bring it up when some people have doubts about it is a dishonest tactic because the population models are well founded, centuries of rsearch has gone into them and they can be replicated in controlled conditions.

Comparing a well established and experimentally provable theory with global warming is very dishonest.

Originally posted by watcher73
People actually decrease the amount of food by using it to feed animals. We have no problem reproducing.

That is because we still have an excess of food, tons are thrown away each year. Well at least in western society.

Originally posted by watcher73

Huh?

Yeah i'm a little tired and mistyped that so i'll correct it.

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
Further this higher population would then eat more food and then breed more etc until population outstrips supply.

There we go corrected and the amount of damage this higher population would do is incredble. How about an experience to make my point clearer as i have been hunting since i was young.

I live in an area that is a small town surrounded by farmland. I have numerous written agreements with farmers to hunt on their land. My payment is simply the meat i get from the animals and i give some to the farmer as a thanks for letting me shoot on his/her land.

Anyway each year when i go hunting on well maintained land i can shoot maybe 5 rabbits in a day. This is enough to keep the population sort of steady although of course it grows and shrinks still but it reduces the amount of damage.

Now there are organic farms around here and about 7 years ago i was looking for new land to shoot on so i did my usual thing of posting polite letters to farmers offering my services. One of these organic people replied, asked me if i was humane in my methods which i assured them i was as i don't trap animals i only use rifles and shotguns and take shots i know are instant kills.

So after meeting this nice couple they told me what had happened the previous year. Basically they are both vegetarian and own a small farm. They don't agree with killing things so they fenced off as much of the farm as they could (due to cost they couldn't fence it all) and installed scarecrows and noise machines to scare birds.

Their first year over half of their crop was eaten by pest species. They had to get money to keep their farm, i don't know if they went to a bank or the government for that. So they called me and that weekend i shot over 19 rabbits in one sitting, after going back the folliwng week with shotguns my friend and i shot nearly 70 pigeons. We kept all of the meat of course as they had no use for it.

That year their crop yield jumped to over two thirds. If i hadn't helped them by culling then they would have probably lost their farm as unproductive farms don't tend to get grants and a bank wouldn't have given a second loan. Not only that but if every farmer suffered such heavy loses of crops because culling stopped then i can assure you that there wouldn't be enough food to feed people.

Culling is a necessity of life and if you are a vegan/vegetarian then something has died so you can eat. I know you are desperately trying to falsify facts to disprove that because you can't deal with reality but that is the reality.

As a final note i should point out i am not a sport hunter. I don't have antlers on my wall, i take no pleasure in killing something and before pulling the trigger i always say a little sorry in my head. I understand however it is something that needs to be done and the meat is fantastic, i also know the animl has had a good life and died instantly. Few meat eaters can say they know that.

I also serve another important function. Have you heard of myxymitosis? A truly horrible, human invented illness that rabbits get. If i have a choice between shooting a healthy rabbit and a myxy one i shoot the myxy one. You don't want to see how rabbits die from myxy, it's utterly cruel.

[edit on 29-12-2009 by ImaginaryReality1984]

Following the logic that its ok to eat a plant but not an animal because plants don't "feel pain and can't move" then i can't help but wonder what about people labeled brain dead or in comas? Can they be put on a vegan menu as they can't move or feel pain? Plus, they would be benefiting society as those resources would no longer be wasted on those unmoving unfeeling things.

believe in deep gratitude for the Earth
believe in observance of the Source in all this beauty and life
believe in nuturance of life in all things

it is my intention to live ideally, and mar no living life form.
we devolved through the centuries, wandering so far from nature.
now we have little understanding of plantlife and our connection.
it is my desire to live simply...
~fruits from the trees, returning the seeds to grow anew
~fresh water from streams, vital with minerals
~pure air to breath, filled with pollens
...my body and environment are not currently adapted to that reality.
it is accepted - it is also accepted that my vegan lifestyle is not either.
anyone lifestyle subsisting in the 'money' system invariably destroys some-thing.
in fact, any being in dimensions of timespace will enevitably assimilate some form of microorganism into its soul carrier (accounted for non-human forms).

it is now a matter of what we do with this information.......
do we use it to justify irresponsibly consuming and controlling any lifeform
or do we have gratitude for our relationship with the universe and creation, observe the Source in all things, nurture all life; and thus consume only the minimum amount of lifeforms necessary for survival and vitality
.........which would be, in the minimum, a vegan lifestyle!


LOVE

Originally posted by pepsi78
reply to post by DevolutionEvolvd

 

There are different reasons why people become vegetarian.
1 Out of fear that meat kills in time and degrades the body.
2 Fitness junkies obssesed with weight and all of the sort.(mostly women)
3 Out of moral obligations.

[edit on 29-12-2009 by pepsi78]

It can be summed up, as I did in the OP, into three categories:

Political Vegetarian--based on the belief that widespread practice of a vegetarian diet would produce a sustainable agriculture and social justice.

Nutritional vegetarian--based on the belief that a vegetarian diet produces better health than an omnivorous diet.

Moral vegetarian--based on the belief that a vegetarian diet reduces bloodshed.

-Dev

Originally posted by watcher73
Cows are vegetarian, so where do they get it?

Cows eat grass - yes? Where does grass grow from? The ground, which is FILLED with bacteria. Does that solve the mystery for you?

Some people tend to forget that NOTHING is wasted in nature.. Animals die, rot, are absorbed into the ground which in turns provides more nutrients for plants, which are then eaten by animals who die, rot, are reabsorbed into the ground and so on and so on..
Go watch the lion king, and pay attention to the part where Mufasa explains the circle of life..

fail?

[edit on 29-12-2009 by MacATK18]

Originally posted by watcher73
Vitamin B12 is made by only one thing in nature, bacteria. Cows are vegetarian, so where do they get it?

Thus, herbivorous animals must either obtain B12 from bacteria in their rumens, or (if fermenting plant material in the hindgut) by reingestion of cecotrope fæces.

Hence why cows have 2 stomachs. And you keep saying I fail?

reply to post by Ha`la`tha


It's not my title. It's the title of the article. Sorry if it offends you.

-Dev

The concept of a universal conciousness includes the notion that all 3D matter has a spark of life force spirit.

It follows that plants and even rocks are endowed to some extent.

During my explorations into these concepts I have read -
...that trees evolve their conciousness by experiencing OBEs
...that rock that built the pyramids moved itself when asked

Neither of them have a physical brain, but who says that all 3D matter needs one?

Originally posted by Nutter


The first sign of a losing debator. Name calling.

Yes I called your argument a name. Forgive me. And then learn the difference between calling an argument dumb and a person dumb.

Tomatoe plants aren't perennial everywhere.

And now you change your "facts."

I have personally eaten a leaf of lettuce taken from a live plant and it has continued living.

Good for you. I bet you got a full stomach from that leaf, eh? How about all the nutrients you need to survive? Did that one leaf provide you with it?

Ah notice the lack of redress here people?

Carrots and potatoes are the root system of the plant.

So, I have a hard time believing you ate the root and the plant was able to resprout. Or did you only eat half the root?

Believe it or not its true. The carrot was eaten almost all the way up to the point where the carrot stops and the leaves begin, about 1/2 inch as I said. Potatoes are just nodules along the root, not the root itself.

Carrots and potatoes are mostly storage vessels for nutrients. Wrong again.

I love it when someone types something and literally everything they type is wrong and instead of "sorry you are right" you get another full post of wrongness.

Keep going man. Sooner or later you will accidentally be right.

Originally posted by MarrsAttax
Even accepting the assumed moral equivalence for the sake of argument, surely the logical conclusion would not be that vegetarians should eat animals but that no one should eat plants or animals?

Otherwise, they would be arguing that inflicting needless pain is morally ok. Maybe that is what they are arguing?

Inflicting needless pain is not morally acceptable, to me. However, killing animals (and plants for the sake of argument) would not be needless, it would be for the survival of the species.

-Dev

Originally posted by DevolutionEvolvd
reply to post by Ha`la`tha

 

It's not my title. It's the title of the article. Sorry if it offends you.

-Dev

You posted it. You defended it. Personally Im sick of you and people like you posting things up, defending them as fact and then backing off like you had nothing to do with the post appearing next to your name.

Quit being a pussy - cat. Meow.

reply to post by DevolutionEvolvd


I am so sick of all these "manufactured" catch words (talking points) and the imperialistic enviromentalists!

This post is especially alarming. Since this was basically the message in Avatar. Isn't it funny how it takes a movie with political and enviromental issues to make certain groups think a certain way. I mean the movie came out like a week ago and already we are seeing posts like this one.

"Go Green"
"Don't eat living things"
"Politically correct"

So I guess we are supposed to starve? - Eating living things like healthy green plants bring life and energy to the human body, eating the dead manufactured nutrient free processed food is what will kill all of us.

We are supposed to freeze or cook in our homes, walk to our jobs and use lanterns or candles again after dark - WTF

Lets all just be humans and quit worrying about every little feeble aspect of life.

This planet will always continue to provide for us and regenerate itself.

Good grief!

Quit listening to these manipulating green people - who will stand to make billions off of the fake and invisible situation. For them there is nothing better than to tax all of us for something we can't see or prove!

Now they really can charge us for the air we breath - ten years ago I said they would one day, as a joke - now even this is no joke!

Whats next - water?! The planet has more water than land mass - but they will find a way I am sure!

All this BS makes me sick

[edit on 29-12-2009 by arizonascott]

Originally posted by awake1234
it is now a matter of what we do with this information.......
do we use it to justify irresponsibly consuming and controlling any lifeform
or do we have gratitude for our relationship with the universe and creation, observe the Source in all things, nurture all life; and thus consume only the minimum amount of lifeforms necessary for survival and vitality
.........which would be, in the minimum, a vegan lifestyle!

I am all for eating less meat, not eliminating it from the diet just eating far less than msot people. However i must make you aware of something.

For every 10 acres or so of crops i can tell you i shoot around 80 bunnies a year, maybe 120 pigeons, numerous squirrels, rats and magpies. That is a lot of animals for 10 acres of course this varies because some areas have less animals than others.

As crops increase in quantity the numbers of animals consuming these crops rise and so more have to be culled to keep things even. I disagree with certain forms of meat rearing however, like beef as it is a serious resource hog. Pig farming can be more sustainable if waste food is used (damaged crops, leftover human food).