Chavez brings the house down in Copenhagen

reply to post by SLAYER69


No I don't care about blow back, I can look after myself thanks.

I am well aware of the lack of freedom, I don't mind being on the radar it's called having a set and standing up for what you believe is true. The world could do with a few more leaders like that!

Edit: oh and I don't own a gun, so am I ready?

[edit on 19-12-2009 by Bunker or Bust]

reply to post by Misoir


I really dont know what to think of him, i dont like his military, political and religious background 3 things that makes a person ignorant. The only good thing is that he is trying to change or improve the economy in some poor countries, but i dont know what really motivates him.

reply to post by Gloster


I really need to write that political model The solution is common sense once you strip away personal greed. We are all human, many different views but all the same. As Regan said if hostile aliens attacked you would stand shoulder to shoulder with Chavez instantly. If only people worked together to further our race, and yes that would include some population control. Two children per couple would see a reduction over time to a level that could be sustained by the planet. I will write it up and expect a good beating from all, nothing is perfect but together we can get closer. Just have to leave the ego at the door..

I just need to find a small country that would implement it as a trial, I would move there as would many I suspect.

reply to post by Bunker or Bust


The problem is a lot of people are ignorant of political science and history. They throw a lot of fancy terms without really understanding anything. We have all been brainwashed but some are more brainwashed than others.

Travelling to different countries and cities helps you understand different cultures and the ideologies associated with each. Communism is not a bad system. Socialism and capitalism are not bad. They all have their strengths and weaknesses.

What I don't appreciate is when people intentionally lie or use their hard fought ignorance to sway others. Mainstream media has sold-out to the nwo a long time ago, yet many people posting here still believe them, even when presented with solid counter-evidence. I don't know what it will take or even if trying to make a difference is worthwhile anymore.

Originally posted by nixie_nox
reply to post by Keyhole

 

Thank YOU!

What is so disturbing that people who are against Obama are praising Chavez for simply speaking out against him, and yet have no idea who Chavez is or what he is done.

He is basically the epitomy of what they are criticizing Obama for!

EXACTLY....

People who supposedly support him do not really care for the average Venezuelan and are more out to slam the US and West for reasons they value in their twisted view of morality.

reply to post by EarthCitizen07


Big fat star for you, 1000% correct.

I am not sure if a difference can be made anymore either to be honest. Without a second coming of any religous figure, alien disclosure etc the people will not wake up. They have been lied to for hundreds of years, it won't change over night.

It will take generations to break the hold but maybe the start is here, so keep up the good fight. Common sense will win, at least I hope it does. If not you will know that you did what you could, write a book or leave a mark that will exist beyond your passing just do no more harm to others.

reply to post by SLAYER69


That may be true but the more important question is why?

People should stop throwing stones and address the isssue

Originally posted by Skyfloating
This type of argumentation is a logical fallacy in that it compares two entirely different motives and contexts with each other and also insinuates that another wrong somehow justifies Chavezs wrongs or are comparable to the size of Communist wrongs.

It is a fallacy. Chavez is popular simply becuase he is thumbing his nose at the US and West. Meanwhile back at the Venezuelan ranch all is not fine in his little paradise.

reply to post by Bunker or Bust


Yeah, all we can do is try our best. Thanks for the star!

Originally posted by SLAYER69

Originally posted by Skyfloating
This type of argumentation is a logical fallacy in that it compares two entirely different motives and contexts with each other and also insinuates that another wrong somehow justifies Chavezs wrongs or are comparable to the size of Communist wrongs.

It is a fallacy. Chavez is popular simply becuase he is thumbing his nose at the US and West. Meanwhile back at the Venezuelan ranch all is not fine in his little paradise.

And america isn't thumbing their nose at others? Surely, you can't be that naive, can you? Heck, I am an american, and a very disgruntled american at that! I am tired of being called an "imperialist" just because bush&cheney want to conquer the world and using all kinds of silly excuses to do so.

Sure obama ain't much better, but at least he didn't start anything. He is attempting to finish a job that probably wasn't finishable to begin with. We got in this mess because the military-industrial complex needs at least one conflict per decade just to exist.

[edit on 19-12-2009 by EarthCitizen07]

Originally posted by Misoir


I completely agree with Chavez, I wonder if Mr. Obama was there. What do you think he would have done? My guess is walk out of the room or look down at his papers as everyone in the room around hime cheered and applauded. Well atleast he wouldn't have been alone Mr Brown, Mr. Harper, and Mr. Netanyahu also would have been angry and would never applaud to this.

macedoniaonline.eu
(visit the link for the full news article)

Its always sad to see so many people so eager to agree with the ravings of a demagogue. Yet again, the loon Chavez has used another international forum to rant about evil capitalism and noble Socialism. Same old, same old....nothing we haven't heard before.
His speeches are merely repetitions of the same philosophy over and over again, repackaged to each situation. He aim is to blow hot rhetoric and appear tough and the center of attention when in fact he is hopelessly frightened of being irrelevant and forgotten. He offers no solutions, no original thought and no constructive criticism, just hyperbole and platitudes. At least the Castro is entertaining!

reply to post by EarthCitizen07

They were elite only in a political sense. They never accumulated the wealth of western european leaders, and certainly not the wealth of western style business leaders.

Actually, when I was there, the Russian political elite were living very well, they had their fancy cars, their fancy places to shop, their vacation homes with the hired lady, the extra rations of vodka and on and on. If it wasn't up to western standards it was only because the entire system was not geared to providing for the needs and demands of the populace like free systems naturally are. The entire country reflected a doom and gloom not seen in the west and in statistical well being indexes that I have seen which are remarkably low in Russia.

Originally posted by EarthCitizen07
And america isn't thumbing their nose at others? Surely, you can't be that naive, can you? Heck, I am an american, and a very disgruntled american at that!

OK...
Now we understand whats with all the rhetoric.

Despite the hyperbole bandied online, strong political opinions won’t get your door kicked in at 3 AM like in the Gulag Archipelago. There are no Stalinist purges or killing fields here. And the FBI/CIA/ATF/DEA/PTA will not shoot you on sight simply because you speak against The Surge or march against the Economic Stimulus Plan.

But it’s certainly fun to claim a fear of it! You become an instant radical and feel intellectually enlightened to boot– patriotism is an uncritical, reflexive act, right?– only a deep thinker would hate his country (yet stay on to enjoy its privileges). And don’t worry about proof, because all that matters is the accusation.

Volume and conviction win the day, so toss that bibliography—grab half the story and make the rest up. If you get caught in a logic box, claim satire. Other countries see this lack of consequences and pile on.

I would love to know who half the posters to this thread really think they are kidding as we sit here in the U.S. mired in a years long recession that despite trillions of dollars of fresh debt designed to alleviate it just continues to get worse.

Trillions of dollars of fresh debt that was hastily given away by our government at its sheer insistence over the strenuous objections of the citizens and not just given away but given to the wealthiest banks and corporations in the land.

Those would be the same corporations that not only found themselves teetering on bankruptcy because of fraudulent and inept business practices, but in many cases the same corporations that over the last few decades exported tens upon tens of millions good paying manufacturing and service jobs overseas to add a few dollars to their bottom lines by hiring cheap foreign labor to do the jobs for them even though the corporations are based here and the bulk of their sales and earnings are from the U.S. Market.

Trillions given away so hastily that our own government said that there was no time to even read let alone debate the terms of the giveaway as these big businesses were just too big to fail. A Bill that when read suggests that the receivers of the giveaway actually wrote it themselves to get trillions of taxpayer money virtually interest free even though the taxpayers have had to pay interest on that money having had to borrow it first from the Federal Reserve because the U.S. Treasury is not just empty but 11.8 trillion dollars in debt!

By some estimates and definitely in some places upwards of 20% of our population is unemployed with another 20% that is easily underemployed working at menial poor paying jobs that don’t utilize the workers complete skill set or earn them enough wages to even meet their basic monthly expenses.

As if that wasn’t bad enough millions of Americans have lost their homes and millions more stand to loose theirs in the near future because of the abysmal state of our economy and the job market despite the fact that much of the trillions that was hastily given away was to the banks with the purpose of helping Americans not loose their homes.

Instead the banks have been engaged in predatory practices to not just create circumstances where even more people default on their loans but have paid themselves billions of dollars in bonuses for all their failed and punishing efforts.

And yet some of you are really going to sit here and knock Hugo Chavez and Venezuela like he and they have cornered the market on stupidity and failure?

Let’s forget about the fact that for many people that it becomes all to easy to dismiss common sense statements and accurate assessments like those evidenced in Chavez’s speech just because he himself is a different kind of personality?

Does the truth really stop being the truth because we don’t personally like the person who said it?

Are we here really any better off in our prosperity and security and future by pretending what ever we have has to be so far superior to what we pretty much imagine they have in Venezuela?

As someone who lives in Miami which is the gateway to Latin America I am surrounded by a sea of refugees from all over Latin America. Today it’s the oligarchs of Venezuela and Columbia fleeing because of a changing political landscape, yet it’s a reoccurring story in South and Central America and the Caribbean, as Nicaragua and El Salvador go through their upheavals and political changes one decade, Argentina and Chile the next, Cuba and Panama another.

Yet no matter why a certain segment is fleeing from Latin America because of political and economic changes it always involves a cyclical process that we are experiencing ourselves right now in the United States.

U.S. Corporations come in and buy up and monopolize the choicest and most valuable resources, spread the major portion of the wealth to be paid locally for those resources to a few prominent families, landowners and politicians to create a wealthy power structure beholden to them and then basically rape the land and the average persons chances of having any kind of quality of life in their endless desire to maximize profits at any and all costs.

Fed up with the corruption people who were born poor and deliberately poorly educated to remain poor and working for slave wages for those corporations or local oligarchs whose wealth comes primarily from those corporations eventually get tired of not having any hope of a better life and to receive a fair share of the bounty of their own land and labor as it is plundered and exploited by us here in the U.S.. A U.S. that is not you and me though many of you will defensively imagine it is, but a U.S. made up of these highly predatory corporations and banks who just take and take and push until finally…some charismatic person like a Chavez or a Castro or Peron comes along and kicks the corporations out and yes those well to do upper managers and oligarchs who are highly educated and Americanized end up here, usually right in Miami telling me and who ever will listen how horrible and dangerous such people are.

This is of course though after fleeing because their own nation’s people have come to see them too as horrible and dangerous.

Ultimately we always do what we can to see none of these popular leaders or movements have much of a chance in succeeding. Castro’s Cuba has suffered 50 years of extreme economic sanctions aimed at really what is just petty vengeance and retribution for the people having the temerity to kick our corrupt corporations and their bankers out.

That really would be the same corrupt corporations that recently looted our empty treasury by forcing us through our law makers to borrow money to give to them, and those same corporations that gave away tens upon tens of millions of our American Jobs to nations who are now making so much money we have to borrow it from them like China!

This usually just ends up setting up a cycle where through clandestine efforts we usually find a large enough and unhappy enough segment to finance and arm to 5, or 10 to 15 years later set back up yet another American friendly government after the war to get it done claims a few hundred thousand local lives, and then it’s back to business as usual for our Corporations enriching a few select people locally who can hold it all together for them and spiriting off with the lions share of the profits and leaving the people with increasingly less and less.

Just like here in the United States they are leaving us with less and less.

Problems we never want to address because we would rather address some other nation’s problems like Venezuela’s or Iran’s instead of our own. All the while we are doing this we are convincing ourselves that we are some how so much better and superior and even lucky despite the fact that our government and corporations are shafting us and raping us too!

While we do this we will take that odd ball personality actually nutty enough and committed enough to step up to the plate and try to change that area of the world birth and creed makes them feel responsible for and dismiss everything they say good or bad based on just not liking that odd ball personality?

The truth is this is how we are taught to accept bad ideas and reject good ones because its never about the idea its about the messenger and the personality of who carries that message that makes it valid or not?

We will reject common sense when it comes from the personality we have been taught to hate or question based on a biased driven agenda painted for us by our government and corporations and accept uncommon sense and bad ideas and defend uncommon sense and bad ideas because it comes from a personality we have been taught to love and respect and OBEY.

In the meantime we are frozen to inaction through these nonsensical critiques of the messengers instead of the message.

We actually convince ourselves in that process we are lucky to only be getting shafted as bad as we are and raped as bad as we are, and sold out as bad as we are by our own government and corporations, because it could be so much worse if we lived in this nation_________ under this leader ___________ who is just a __________ and nothing they say should be considered to have any merit because __________ and in that process we box ourselves into a loosing proposition.

Chavez was right in his assessment on what is going on in Copenhagen in regards to the same old corporations now with the aide of the same old dominant governments figuring out a way to TAX us and get us to pay more FEES for them to administer, steal and mismanage.

It doesn’t matter who the messenger is it matters if the message is sound!

The reality is that it is our nation's corporate greed and plundering and blundering that typically leads to the Chavez's of the world saying enough!

There has got to be a better way.

Amazingly we here never get tired of our shafting by our government and corporations.

I do believe we would if good ideas weren't made bad simply based on the personal assessment of the person who said them.

reply to post by SLAYER69


Your logic is beyond flawed.

You speak of "Stalinist purges or killing fields" as if to claim that freedom of speech is a privilege and we should be grateful to our government for not slaughtering us over it.

Freedom of speech is a right. No one here - despite what you claim - is questioning whether or not our freedom of speech has been violated to this point. We are questioning whether or not our freedom of speech will be violated in the future.

For anyone who has paid attention, all signs point to yes. Unfortunately I believe your red, white, and blue sleep mask has shielded you from that fact.

No one here hopes to be viewed as a "radical", an "intellectual", or a "deep thinker" because they hate what this country is turning in to. The only thing motivating this sort of behavior and talk is the road that this country has begun to venture down.

Patriotism is the love for your country, not the love for your government. Country and government, despite what you have been conditioned to believe, are not synonymous.

Questioning the actions of my government - at my expense - makes me no more a "radical" than not questioning the actions of your government makes you a patriot. In reality, it is the other way around; I am the patriot and you are the radical.

I suggest you learn the definitions of the political ideologies you oppose and use to erroneously justify your logically inferior arguments and study a bit of actual world history before you respond to any more posts in this thread. Your flawed logic has gotten you nowhere.

Reply to Novuvordermundi:

Today's wars are corporate wars. They are to seize control of major economic assets in non-compliant countries for the good of the West's corporate masters.

Afganistan, what major corporation is involved and will benifit? What western corporate master? As you say, there is one so who is it?

Corporations are always to blame!

[edit on 19/12/09 by plumranch]

reply to post by plumranch


The oil pipeline out of Turkmenistahn that was built post invasion in Afghanustan to bypass Moscow's control of the transhipment of several former Republics huge oil reserves was built for Royal Dutch Shell.

That would be the same Royal Dutch Shell that has murdered and mained and staged coup de tats throughout Africa, Asia and the Middle East.

Now you have a name to go with D-e-n-i-a-l.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

And yet some of you are really going to sit here and knock Hugo Chavez and Venezuela like he and they have cornered the market on stupidity and failure?

Concise! :LOL:

Chavez was right in his assessment on what is going on in Copenhagen in regards to the same old corporations now with the aide of the same old dominant governments figuring out a way to TAX us and get us to pay more FEES for them to administer, steal and mismanage. It doesn’t matter who the messenger is it matters if the message is sound!

No actually, Chavez just wants a large amount of western money!

If the West wants to give money to the undeveloped nations for whatever reason, Chavez is ready!

reply to post by plumranch


Central Asian Pipelines

You asked for one, I'll give you two: Chevron and ExxonMobil.

reply to post by NovusOrdoMundi

Chevron and ExxonMobil.

You forgot Haliburton and Blackwater! The old saws, always the problem! Chevron, Exxon, Hali and Blackwater!

Oops, forgot RDS (for PT)!

Iranian Forces Take Over Iraq Oil Well

FYO there are significant risks involved in oilfield development in Iraq Afghanistan. Any company (read mean corporation) taking the risk could loose billions should a terrorist or Iranian conflict break out!

Today's news:

"The oil field is in disputed territory in between Iranian and Iraqi border forts," he said, adding that such incidents occur quite frequently. An official of the state-owned South Oil Co in the southeastern city of Amara, and west of the field, said: "An Iranian force arrived at the field early this morning (Friday). "It took control of Well 4 and raised the Iranian flag even though the well lies in Iraqi territory," the official added.

The risks are huge!



[edit on 20/12/09 by plumranch]