77 = No Hijack, Flight Deck Door Closed for Entire Flight

Originally posted by Seventh

Originally posted by abefrohman
Come on guys.

Everyone seems to agree that the plane didn't hit the Pentagon... and the Government is covering it up.

Yet somehow you all think it's reasonable to trust data released by the government from a data recorder from the plane?

If the data the govt. releases supporting the terrorist explanation is not valid, then the data they release supporting anything else is not valid.

I'll listen to anything in the way of eyewitness testimony and physical evidence that refutes the terrorist story... but when we start using information that was released by the same people who are lying to us just because it supports what we want to believe... that's when I get off the bus.

Look at it this way.

If it was a helicopter... the data is fake.
If it was a missile... the data is fake.
If the flight was unmanned... the data is fake.

Only if the flight was hijacked does it make any sense to trust any of this data, and it seems to me that nobody here thinks it was a hijacking.

[edit on 27-11-2009 by abefrohman]

What you have here imho is yet another case of an overlooked aspect in doctored and planted evidence, the real FDR of that flight could never be used no matter what happened, it would show at the very least that the alleged flight path and clipping of lamp posts, and being in the required position for the CCTV`s field of vision, the frame where the outrageously to small for a Boeing (released Pentagon video) is seen behind the heliport, was impossible.

Yet another small but highly significant point that was completely neglected.

All the planted evidence stinks of wtf!!! no way, including the alleged engine that fits into a waste bin over at the WTC, all the quickly put together paper trail found in the hire car etc, the soaked in jet fuel passport, the Bin Laden video, flight manuals in Arabic (martyrdom edition), P.C. Flight simulator software, receipts for box-cutter knives, over at Shanksville... The rusty engine part delicately placed in a digger bucket, the debris free lawns of the Pentagon just after impact then booooom!!! just in time for the MSM a delivery from Plane Crash Debris `R` Us do their thing, etc, etc

.

Excuse me for saying this but this whole post sounds like nothing but a rant. First you make opinions not based in evidence and then you change the subject to the WTC, make more assumptions and finally make a brash conclusion of "case closed" without examination of your statetments. Did you go the the Al Gore school of science by any chance? Well ... I guess we should all just wrap it up and go home. The questions have all been answered.

Originally posted by Angus123

Originally posted by Tikiman

Originally posted by Angus123

Originally posted by Tikiman
Don't want to believe it? True. No one wants to believe that their own government was involved in the extinction of thousands of lives. DO you?
Why?
Why believe that? Because there are too many people who hated the Bush administration that would prefer he was involved for emotional reasons.
Where is the nul hypothesis and testing? Just repeat a loaded question often enought and forcefully enough and it becomes truth rather than an unevidenced question.
I have some questions and please excuse me if I am behind the curve in this since I don't look in on a daily basis.
1. Did 77 crash into the pentigon?
2. If not then where did they get the flight recorder?
3. If they planted the flight recorder then where did it come from?
3. Was it planted at the pentigon or did our government invent the data?
4. If the black box itself is in question, why are truthers now using the data from this box to suport their claims?
5. If the government is involved with a cover-up then why are they providing this information that truthers can us against them?

Yes, I think it's good to ask questions.

Bush wasn't involved man. He was just the buffoon they put out in front.
Kind of like a modern day Claudius.

Buffoon? Probably. He really wasn't very bright. Who are the "they" you are taking about?

PNAC in general, Cheney in particular.

How was Cheney involeved and where is there evidence to suport this?

Originally posted by Tikiman

Originally posted by Angus123

Originally posted by Tikiman

Originally posted by Angus123

Originally posted by Tikiman
Don't want to believe it? True. No one wants to believe that their own government was involved in the extinction of thousands of lives. DO you?
Why?
Why believe that? Because there are too many people who hated the Bush administration that would prefer he was involved for emotional reasons.
Where is the nul hypothesis and testing? Just repeat a loaded question often enought and forcefully enough and it becomes truth rather than an unevidenced question.
I have some questions and please excuse me if I am behind the curve in this since I don't look in on a daily basis.
1. Did 77 crash into the pentigon?
2. If not then where did they get the flight recorder?
3. If they planted the flight recorder then where did it come from?
3. Was it planted at the pentigon or did our government invent the data?
4. If the black box itself is in question, why are truthers now using the data from this box to suport their claims?
5. If the government is involved with a cover-up then why are they providing this information that truthers can us against them?

Yes, I think it's good to ask questions.

Bush wasn't involved man. He was just the buffoon they put out in front.
Kind of like a modern day Claudius.

Buffoon? Probably. He really wasn't very bright. Who are the "they" you are taking about?

PNAC in general, Cheney in particular.

How was Cheney involeved and where is there evidence to suport this?

Cheney was the one that handled the situation while Bush was flying in circles in AF1 and he was the one that ordered NORAD to stand down.

Originally posted by Donny 4 million
I don't know if I would understand the data unless it was compared to successful normal flights.
Are you saying something like that?

Yes, there are 11 flights in the Warren RO besides the one in question. During NONE of those fights was the door ever recorded open. I checked the frame structure and I was correct, the default value is closed. So in 42 hours of recorded flight, no 'signal' was ever sampled for that parameter, hence no binary 1 recorded. I posted the frame information on the other thread.

reply to post by wholetruth


Who is the "Australian programmer?"

Without that info, this tread stinks.

sorry.

Originally posted by Tikiman

Excuse me for saying this but this whole post sounds like nothing but a rant. First you make opinions not based in evidence and then you change the subject to the WTC, make more assumptions and finally make a brash conclusion of "case closed" without examination of your statetments. Did you go the the Al Gore school of science by any chance? Well ... I guess we should all just wrap it up and go home. The questions have all been answered.

You will find the `Case closed* is part of my signature, you may want to watch the video it entails, kinda bemused how you use science as some sort of protocol that bears a significance to 9/11, science went way out the barn door around 08:45 a.m. 9/11/2001.

In the meantime feel free to give your assessments as to counter the evidence I picked up on, here`s a good pointer......

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/4225eecc574a.jpg[/atsimg]

And if you are going to go down the `But look what that engine went through` approach, here are some other jet engines that went through identical situations, notice how they did not shrink etc......

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/3e41157cadb3.jpg[/atsimg]

And another few pictures depicting planted evidence

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/56320acd5a95.jpg[/atsimg]

Science you say?, lmao.

Originally posted by jam321

Airline Pilots and Flight Crew Members reading this will recognize my generic descriptions to maintain airline security.
FACT: The 2001 Cockpit doors were like hotel room doors, when closed; THEY LOCK. The doors were never left open.

If a Flight Attendant was murdered in the front of the airplane, near the cockpit door, the pilots would hear loud screams from fellow crew members and the passengers. The Pilots would be alerted by the violent noises on the other side of the cockpit door.

FACT: The 2001 Cockpit doors contained peep holes, just like hotel room doors.
One Pilot looking through the peep hole could easily observe the violence, and alert the other Pilot who has radio access to FAA Controllers.

FACT: The cockpit contains a "jump seat." The jump seat is an extra seat in the cockpit, used; 1. by the FAA to check/observe pilot performance; 2. for airline pilot training; 3. to reposition non flying pilots to their destinations. THIS ADDITIONAL PERSON IS SITTING IN THE COCKPIT; WITH ACCESS TO THE COCKPIT DOOR.

The person riding in the jump seat, may not have been recorded on the Aircraft Passenger Manifest. If this person identified himself as a Pilot; the Captain flying the airplane would check his pilot credentials. Government/FAA credentials are inconsistent and are more difficult to verify.

www.jtalon.tv...

I still find it hard to believe that 4 airlines were taking over and the pilots had no time to give a warning.

Did all 4 flights leave the door open?

Did terrorist ram all 4 doors?

Did pilots from all 4 flights walk out to see what was going on allowing terrorist to get in?

Suspicious minds.....

Good questions man, we should all drop the bickering over different theories of what happened and put our attention to what the pilots did during the supposive take over.

I know the government did say they let some of the families hear part of the cockpit conversations, but seriously how did not one pilot send out a distress signal or radio MAYDAY WE ARE BEING HIJACKED.

The way everyone believes the official story without the full audio from the flights is like believing a hollywood movie is fact, especially when it doesn't make sense. You question it, but dont have enough time to dwell on it becuase the movie keeps playing and your brain just gives in to watching it.

I wish they would show the full footage of whatever hit the pentagon, I wish they would play the audio recordings in the cockpit of each flight like they do 9-1-1 calls of celebrites.

It has been 8 years and they've heard and seen the footage but for some reason they disclose all the information from the public who they serve and get their money from. Their reason: its in the public's best interest.

OUR BEST INTEREST IS THE TRUTH and that is one that we aren't getting.

The kind of men capable of killing thousands of innocent people in premeditated cold blood in order to start a war in Iraq to kill sadam hussein and cut the output of oil from that country to raise the price of oil strike me as detail oriented planners.

At the same time they strike me as the kind of men who would carefully choose their weapons examining every aspect from fuel capacity to max speed, to air flight recorder data parameters.

I find it hard to believe that a mechanism designed specifically to collect evidence on the flight would have been overlooked for 1 minute, much less 8 years. If they got to the security cameras at the pentagon, a highly gaurded, tertiary means of evidence collection, missing the recorder would seem hard to believe wouldn't?

On 911 I drove past the burning pentagon on my way to work at MSNBC. I had access to 1st and second hand data as it flooded in. I watched the story about flight UA195 out of Newark take a 180 degree turn in a matter of a couple hours. It went from cheney ordering non responsive aircraft to be shot down, to news of the missle strike of the flight over a rural area and the widow of one of the passengers screaming bloody murder about the vp killing helpless Americans to her being coverted into a cheerleader when it was explained to her that her husband saved the lives of hundreds by overpowering the hijackers.

My immediate discust was tempered by amazement of the calculus and capacity of those in charge to get to that woman and spin the story so quickly and effectively.

We are not dealing with amatuers. I'm not buying the official BS but I'm not buying the black box either.

I'm not a pilot but a friend of my Brothers is, he flys for AA. He told me that the "flight deck door" is the door on the plane that leads to the flight deck area meaning the immediate area of the cockpit. The cock pit doors are would be an entirely different item listed on the FDR. Just FYI.

Don't rule out that this data could hav ebeen deliberately skewed so that eventually it'd be found and then Truthers would look even more insane. There are other inconsistencies in that data that could be expolained this way, as well as a laundry list of other things from the officials. Rumsfeld: "the missile that hit the Pentagon", etc. I'd tread softly with this new bit...

This is like everything else that involves zionmedia: it will go nowhere, except to serve as another slap in our collective American face. They OWN us, and will exult in the chance to rub it in our faces with more 'terrorist' coverage of the kangaroo court trial hoax.

Face it: the media could spend five years telling everyone the truth about 911, and it would take another 5 to finally scrub away the brainwashing from the last 10! They know how conditioning works. The contradiction method intersperses contradicting inputs, spoken with confidence, to break down the mind's willingness to even process the material. We are slaves to israel's demands, as they have rotted us from within. Watch CSAN if you want a free trip to the zoo, where human animals make the rules. Nadler, Frank, Waxman...like a freak show. Enjoy the record cold winter.

Bush Jr. is not as dumb as you think he is. Keep this in mind... his grandfather Prescot helped the Nazis (look it up) and his father Bush Sr. helped cover up JFK's assassination.

The Bushes are members of an elite society called "Skull and Bones", whose origins and beliefs are steeped in the occult. Do your research... lots of shady characters in the Bush circle and have been for decades.

There is no doubt that 9/11 was an inside job. Like Pearl Harbor, a reason was needed to get the American people feeling all patriotic so we could bomb and invade a foreign country. Without an event like 9/11 Americans wouldn't have conceived overthrowing 2 Arab governments the way we did... but when there's a terrible stateside disaster, the game changes.

If only the American people knew how they've been duped...

Here's a little tech for those interested. The Flight Deck Door was most
certainly assigned as a recorded parameter as per this chart:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/48915ff55790.jpg[/atsimg]

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/f6bffbbcaaee.jpg[/atsimg]

A port that is not used looks like this in the documentation:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/c503c27cb4d9.jpg[/atsimg]

It is clear, without debate that Flight Deck Door was assigned and being
polled by the system.

These captures were taken from a Boeing 757 manual, document number:
D226A101-3, revision G.

As shown the flight data recorder receives a logic low (binary 0) when the
door is closed. With electronic circuits (specifically digital signals), you
must NEVER leave a pin open. It must be referenced to VSS (signal high),
or Ground (signal low) at all times. It CANNOT remain floating or the input
circuitry will receive noise, and/or an undetermined value.

For this reason, the following circuit is the standard for switched logic
circuits. There may be variations, however the signal input line will
ALWAYS sense Ground (logic 0), or VSS (logic 1)

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/41ef709bc16d.jpg[/atsimg]

So what does this mean? Well, according to the documentation, the door
is closed when a logic zero is received at Port D14, word 251, bit 1, subframe 3.

If this parameter was NEVER recorded the documentation would not assign
a port, and/or a word/bit position.

If the door was left open, the value would read logic 1 (VSS) as shown on the right side (Figure 2).

Parameters that are not recorded (IE: spares, or unused ports) are tied
to ground instead of VSS to reduce current draw and power consumption
in a circuit.

Summary:

Unused pins, spare ports, etc. are tied to ground and are labelled as spare
in the second chart from the top of this post.

Assigned parameters are never 'floating' and will either see a logic 1, or
logic 0. In the case of the Flight Deck Door, it was reading ground which
means it was closed (logic 0).

Originally posted by turbofan
Here's a little tech for those interested. The Flight Deck Door was most
certainly assigned as a recorded parameter as per this chart:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/48915ff55790.jpg[/atsimg]

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/f6bffbbcaaee.jpg[/atsimg]

A port that is not used looks like this in the documentation:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/c503c27cb4d9.jpg[/atsimg]

It is clear, without debate that Flight Deck Door was assigned and being
polled by the system.

These captures were taken from a Boeing 757 manual, document number:
D226A101-3, revision G.

As shown the flight data recorder receives a logic low (binary 0) when the
door is closed. With electronic circuits (specifically digital signals), you
must NEVER leave a pin open. It must be referenced to VSS (signal high),
or Ground (signal low) at all times. It CANNOT remain floating or the input
circuitry will receive noise, and/or an undetermined value.

For this reason, the following circuit is the standard for switched logic
circuits. There may be variations, however the signal input line will
ALWAYS sense Ground (logic 0), or VSS (logic 1)

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/41ef709bc16d.jpg[/atsimg]

So what does this mean? Well, according to the documentation, the door
is closed when a logic zero is received at Port D14, word 251, bit 1, subframe 3.

If this parameter was NEVER recorded the documentation would not assign
a port, and/or a word/bit position.

If the door was left open, the value would read logic 1 (VSS) as shown on the right side (Figure 2).

Parameters that are not recorded (IE: spares, or unused ports) are tied
to ground instead of VSS to reduce current draw and power consumption
in a circuit.

Summary:

Unused pins, spare ports, etc. are tied to ground and are labelled as spare
in the second chart from the top of this post.

Assigned parameters are never 'floating' and will either see a logic 1, or
logic 0. In the case of the Flight Deck Door, it was reading ground which
means it was closed (logic 0).

In a terrorist situation what if the door were propped open, then what? Would it polled by the system then being deemed as open or shut? Would there be a default for this type of action by the door (being propped and not shut) or would it even register it. What would the default setting for that particular pin (door latch) be acutuated for if the door had been breached for a period longer than the system had been programmed to "read" (poll) the latch system for?

Originally posted by mikelee

In a terrorist situation what if the door were propped open, then what?

Then the value would read logic 1, or OPEN during the next poll and every
poll the door was held open.

Would it polled by the system then being deemed as open or shut?

Open

Would there be a default for this type of action by the door (being ropped and not shut) or would it even register it.

Yes, see above. The system either senses a voltage (VSS), or ground.
If the door is unlatched for a period of time, it will be recorded.

If the door is shut for a period of time, it will be recorded.

If the door is even slightly open (not making positive contact with the latch),
the system senses an open condition.

What would the default setting for that particular pin (door latch) be acutuated for if the door had been breached for a period longer than the system had been programmed to "read" (poll) the latch system for?

The system is constantly polling all ports. The cycle time for this door is
every four seconds.

In four second intervals the port is polled and either 1 is recorded (OPEN),
or a zero is recorded (CLOSED).

Thanks! I was wondering if the system would register any door open conditions for an extended period of time or resort to some defaulted data. I appreciate your thoughtful reply, interesting indeed given all of the other data & conditions on that flight.

reply to post by Seventh


On the first image....:

1. Some of those engines have absolutely nothing to do with the engines used on WTC. GE90-11xx (at the top) is completely different to the engines used on the Boeing 767 and 757 aircraft. The "engine" found on 9/11 on the street would probably either be the APU, or part of the core (hot section) of the engines. Core section is far smaller than the entire engine. Think of a modern turbofan engine as a piston powered propeller a with a shroud over it - the piston engine is the "core".

2. The engine in the middle of that picture is not a commercial jet-liner engine. This can be shown by the afterburner at the back of it and the obvious low-bypass design - this limits the engines to the Concorde or TU-144. Concordes engines are a maximum of 1.2 metre in diameter. Tu-144 is similar. Therefore, the engines in them pictures are obviously inaccurate (unless the average person is 3 feet tall).

Excluding the first image, yes it is very suspicious how them engines disintegrated.

[edit on 28/11/2009 by C0bzz]

We all know the laws of physics were suspended that day.....they didn't have to open the door ... they walked thru it like a ghost would....i thought that was common knowledge. ;-)

reply to post by turbofan


Quite right

I must add though that the pullup (or down) resistor is usually located within the device receiving the signal which is the FDR in this case. This is to prevent an unconnected input 'floating' as you said in the case of a broken wire, loose terminal connection or faulty microswitch sensor. The pullup is also assists with antistatic protection and aids immunity to induced voltages (noise) in the case of CMOS logic components.

Considering that this signal is never observed changing state anywhere in the contents of the FDR and that the open-circuit state of a pulled up input is a '1' (door open), I'm leaning toward a problem with the actual microswitch or magnetic reed switch sensing the status of the door or even a wiring problem.

Every flight I've ever been on , the cockpit door is continually opened and shut as the crew get their coffee and sandwiches etc. (even post 9/11)

So, let´s see what P4T is assuming here:
1.- They accept, AA77 was crashed at the Pentagon.

2.- They accept the DFDR data as real, from AA77.

3.- This means that they accept the finding of the evidence at the Pentagon as REAL.

Here we are talking about parts of the plane, bodies, body parts, DNA information.
All of that is assumed to be correct and true.
What they are saying is that the “perps” from the “evil” Bush gov. are so dumb that they gave up information from the DFDR that shows how they have lied, or that AA77 was a remotely controlled airplane, or they might be suggesting that the pilots were the hijackers from the beginning of the flight I guess.
But here is “THE SMOKING GUN” that debunks this “finding”:
The 11 previous flights on this DFDR show the same thing.
The flight deck door, closed for the entire time!!!
No drinks, no meals, not even a visit to the bathroom on any flight for any pilot.

And there are some long flights included. (THIS IS IMPOSSIBLE.)
So. What possible explanations do we have here?
One simple answer would be, simply an inoperative sensor. Which wouldn´t be at all unusual, because it is something that is not essential for the safety of flight, so the plane can be cleared to fly with that sensor out of service.



[edit on 28-11-2009 by rush969]