I smell here ... hmmmm ... the biggest conspiracy in human history.

You Question: What's the 'thing' with History before 10,000+ bce??

We all have to understand it's no conspiracy.............

Scientists/Archeologists/Palentologists/et al can not definitively say that ancient civilizations or advanced technologies existed....
ALL they can state is there are Anomalies in the pre-historic record.

All that anyone of them can do is offer a 'Subjective' opinion
or present a model that is (at best) 'Iffy'
..and in conflict with the accepted models held by all the other Learned (pronounced 'learn-Ed') minds of todays' academia.


glad to see you got so many 'stars'


)sorry, had to clean up all my typos, in the EDIT phase(



[edit on 20-11-2009 by St Udio]

Originally posted by drsmooth23
Akkadian Empire

22,000+/- BC.

Sumer

The Sumerian city states rose to power during the prehistorical Ubaid and Uruk periods. Sumerian history reaches back to the 26th century BC and before, but the historical record remains obscure until the Early Dynastic III period,....

I have a theory. lets say you have 10,000 people living in one place. lets say these people have been living there for 5,000 years. when some one dies, instead of burying that person with their prized basket, they keep using it, because its not like they could go to walmart and get new ones. only 1 out of every 1000 objects last long enough in time to be studied by archeolgists. just because they find something from 1500 BC, it doesnt mean that people were NOT there before that time. I mean, really think about it;

its 20,000 years ago. your in mespoatania. you have a pot that was made from clay. one day it breaks and you leave the pieces outside your hut, and no one moves them for years. after a while dirt and other things cover these pieces of pottery. fast forward 20,000 years and someone finds these pots,....

You are brilliant example that many of you read text without understanding of what you are reading.
You post link to the source from wikipedia where had been written it was 22 centuries BC. In your opinion 22 century BC is 22.000BC. So if we have 21 century AD so now is the year 21.009 AD am I right? However as I said many of you are reading without understanding no one even noticed that silly mistake.
But yeaa. The discussion is full profesional lol.

[edit on 20-11-2009 by odyseusz]

reply to post by odyseusz


I just figured it was a simple mistake. I'm sure lots of folks have been known to add an extra zero when writing a number. Surely you have done it as well.

But thanks for illustrating my point about people coming to the defense of archaeology generally engage in one of two, or even two in the same, techniques of fallacious debating. Ad hominem and strawman arguments.

Originally posted by zazzafrazz
Ill also address the advanced ancient civlisations theory.
We have thing called a archaeological record.

We have imprints for life activity (all life including dinosaurs) imprinted on the earth going back millions of years, the record shows hominoid developemnent clearly with a intelligence incline.
There is not one shred of conculsive evidence to suggest that there is one civilisation was here over 10 000 years ago, if there was it would be investigated and a very exciting find.
The archaological record is full of past religions and cultures that intefere with WASP TPTB ideals, and that is presented.

Really, I guess some archeologists aren't keeping abroad on the major discoveries, not to mention all the ancient underwater cities, one discovered every year nearly, off coast of Australia, Japan, India, Africa. Not to mention Atlantis discovered (a very good case is made for that) near Greece, right in the heart of a thriving civilization that existed in Europe, China, and maybe links to the Egyptian and Sumerian cultures just a short journey across the sea there.

scienceblogs.com...

Carbon-dating finds from the Hohle Fels region has been a complicated business, but Conard is certain that the flutes are at least 35,000 years old, if not older. The first of such instruments was discovered in 1995 and while they seemed to be unique at the time, these more recent discoveries bring the total number of finds to eight - four of bone and four of ivory.

That strongly suggests that the humans who lived in the ancient Ach valley had a rich musical life. Judging by what we've discovered so far, musical traditions appeared at about the same time as many other innovations such as figurative art and new styles of personal ornaments - remains of these too have been recovered from the German sites.



bpblognews.blogspot.com...

Ravne Tunnels 30,000 - 40,000 Years Old?



2. The Leibniz-Laboratory for Radiometric Dating and Stabel Isotope Research of Christian Albrecht University, Kiel, Germany, estimated an age of 31,000 BP. As expected, the German laboratory has achieved the C-14 dating of the sample very professionally, affordably and fast.

Andrew Lawler C-14 Report (Leibnitz-Laboratory for Radiometric Dating, Kiel, Germany)
....


Answer of the Laboratory of Archaeology at Oxford University

Despite the “impossibility” of the Research Laboratory at Oxford University of determining the age of the wooden fragment found in Ravne tunnel complex, we are satisfied with seeing other laboratories which are very capable of doing it.

And the results are sensational:

We have the evidence of intelligent human activity in the heart of the Balkans, in Bosnia and Herzegovina, in Visoko, dating more than 30,000 years ago!


www.bosnianpyramid.com...
finding blocks, slabsin the area.


www.bosnianpyramid.com...

Tunnel excavation underway 12 March 2006



Mr Semir Osmanagic. Symbols, something like arrows and some also looking like today's letter "E" Osmanagic said, were probably letters of an ancient writing system.


Note, this has a lot of pics and info including the glyph/lettering. This is the apparently called the Bosnian Hoax, with noting but archeoligical evidence of the incredible importance of this discovery, the US just SAID it was a hoax, hmmmmm....

I'd say there as a really huge conspiracy and cover up being done, with no logic at all being used.

Any one of these things would have changed history and rewritten our books, except they all ignore, or say hoax for no reason, when this incredible mounting evidence is before our eyes, often carbon dated, and wonderous.


Edit to Add: And what was it I read recently about carbon dating, that you can triple it even, but its actually flawed in that its depicting too short a time period.


[edit on 20-11-2009 by Unity_99]

Originally posted by Durabys
I am only asking questions.
My question tags:

1) Why do archeologsts get paranoid, agressive when there is a mention of a culture or civilization that is more then 10.000 years old. What happend in this period of time that they had to be "programmed" by the TPTB administred school brainwashing.

Archaeologists follow scientific principal and protocols. there is no room for chasing supposition. There has to be considerable evidence, not just a few out of place objects (many untraceable to this day)

2) Why doctor Zari Hawass the director of Giza Plateu excavation zone gets on the absolute agressive stand when there is ever a mention of rainfall erosion on the Sfinx (last great rainfalls:11000 - 10000 bc - end of the last iceage) or that that the Sfinx represents the lion symbol of the age of Lion (12.000 -9500 bc).

There is only a marrying of different sciences happening now. But currently there is not enough peer reviewed study in the area. With time, and it takes time to make sure the judgment is correct.

3) Why Archeologists go into absolute silence when someone says anything about the Serbian 3-side piramid near Sarajevo - Bosnia built 10.000 bc built out of a better material than modern concrete (super concrete), or cities submerged into the sea on the coast of India, Pakistan, Cuba, Japan, south Anatolia(Turkey- ancestors of the Minoan culture) which flourished before the sea level rose after , you guess it, the end of the last ice age.

There is wide acknowledgment of pre and post ice age humans. That they had flourishing civilizations during the ice age is at this time not confirmed.
It is speculated that there was seed civilization before the oldest known civilizations such as the Sumerians and the Harappan Empire, but otherwise there is not a lot to confirm it.

4)Why is there absolute silence in the MSM about radioactive debris found in old antique by "fire" destroyed cities in Pakistan and India (near new delhi they were building a new residential area, when workers became sick. They learned there are ruins of an old city there, where human skeletons[thousands] werent in the middle of it but on the outskirts of it, facing not the center. Even now archelogists have a permision only for an half an hour to dig there out of health dangers). No crater found, therefor no meteorite impact.
+ Nuclear green "New Mexico-Nevada" like glass found there (+ same glass found on the Sinai penisula, Lybian desert, Mongolian Wastelands near the chinese borders ... "I don´t think i am right with Sinai thing, sorry.")
+ The nearest nuclear facility is hundrerds of miles away.

Possible meteorites, meteors, asteroid hits or volcanic debris. Even lightning can cause the kind of glass that has been found. It's not like there is a huge circular pool the size of a city. :-)

I am only asking questions.


Sorry for errors in text. Mods feel free to move.

I would be really glad, if some of our more skilled and experienced members, in this matter, would come forth and answered these q-tags for us unenlightened (and I mean also myself).



[edit on 12/08/09 by Durabys]

[edit on 12/08/09 by Durabys]

Questions are good. If you should find yourself in a position to participate on a dig I would urge you to jump aboard in order tio get a real feel for the science involved in archaeology.

cheers!

Well...the withholding of information out of Egypt is simple. Hawass is waiting to retire to release his new books, the first titled

The Secrets of Egypt with Zahi Hawass".

Now if he told you all his secrets, he wouldn't have anything to sell.

He will have 10 books out by the end of next year. And plans to go on the lecture curcuit. Big bucks there.

...follow the money.

He says there will be many revealings in the next year.

Here is a great interview with him:

Source: heritage-key.com...


Thankfully he is retiring. I wonder who is going to replace him?



[edit on 20-11-2009 by Julie Washington]

[edit on 20-11-2009 by Julie Washington]

reply to post by djusdjus

Archaeologists follow scientific principal and protocols. there is no room for chasing supposition. There has to be considerable evidence, not just a few out of place objects (many untraceable to this day)

There is, in spades. Just one item carbon dated is all it takes to rock this world and change all the text books, there are many. Pick any one! Don't just lie with nothing backing you.

By the responses giving the same old lies, without proof, in the face of scientific work already done that any archeologist worth their salt already knows about, this is obviously just how important it is to bury the past civilization, because it was rather advanced, and its as important to cover this as UFOLOGY.

The Sphinx originally was a carved lion and was only re-carved later by the Egyptians. The Lion is representative of the "GOD" Jesus Christ. You will find in the Bible the reference to Jesus as the "Lion of the Tribe of Judah".

So my best guess is that the great pyramid and the Sphinx were built by the "Sons Of God" or the Angels to honor God.

At one time Lucifer the 'covering Cherub' ruled on this Earth. He sat IN THE MIDST OF THE OCEANS and RULED THE NATIONS. This was before he sinned against God by trying to overthrow Him and rule in His place.

This is probably where we get the Atlantis story, because I'm sure that God destroyed the island he ruled from after the fall from grace.

That's my theory and it has quite a few scientific facts to back it.

reply to post by Unity_99


Even considering all of the "anomolous" artifacts found I have yet to ever find anything that would suggest to me that ancient civilization was "advanced" ...at all, really.

I agree that there was a "seed" civilization, if you will. And that they were maritime possibly exploring most of the globe... but I don't know about how "advanced" I would call it.

Even if I consider the idea of ancient astronauts, I don't see the civilization here on Earth being super sophisticated or anything.

Originally posted by JayinAR
reply to post by odyseusz

 

I just figured it was a simple mistake. I'm sure lots of folks have been known to add an extra zero when writing a number. Surely you have done it as well.

But thanks for illustrating my point about people coming to the defense of archaeology generally engage in one of two, or even two in the same, techniques of fallacious debating. Ad hominem and strawman arguments.

Maybe it was simple mistake but if someone comes here, check wikipedia where he finds some numbers which doesn't understand and then on that base builds large post with theory about ancient Mesopotamia 22000 years ago it makes me laughing. How could we discus anything here if everybody with serious faces are telling different things and they are clever because five minutes earlier they find something and we can't even be sure if they can read what is written. There is no prove. Most of the post in this thread looks like people reads only few lines in first post. No one reads each other. What is the point of such discussion? I could understand someone like me because English is not my first language and this could be difficult but I'm trying not to get mad. But the rest who speak English fluently. Why they write posts like they don't read other post even on the same page?



[edit on 20-11-2009 by odyseusz]

reply to post by skepticantiseptic


I'm more keen on the idea of the sphinx being a jackyl in original form.
In the likeness of Anubis.

reply to post by odyseusz


Honestly, I think it is because most people have made up their minds on this debate.
They are either pro or con. So it ends up being a "rah rah" cheerleading type deal.
Simply put, a lot of people DON'T read the posts. Just take the opportunity to say "But so and so says that the pyramids are WAY OLD and he's a DOCTOR!!!"

It is a silly debate really. Eventually the truth of the matter will reveal itself.

reply to post by JayinAR


Then how do you reconcile the water erosion on the Sphinx. It has to be much older than believed.

reply to post by skepticantiseptic


I don't have to reconcile water erosion because I agree that it is quite old.
I just tend to think that it would have been carved in the likeness of a jackyl. Afterall, the egyptians didn't have any lionman gods. At least I don't think they did.

But you see, this is exactly what Egyptologists do on a daily basis. They speculate.

Originally posted by JayinAR
reply to post by Unity_99

 

Even considering all of the "anomolous" artifacts found I have yet to ever find anything that would suggest to me that ancient civilization was "advanced" ...at all, really.

I agree that there was a "seed" civilization, if you will. And that they were maritime possibly exploring most of the globe... but I don't know about how "advanced" I would call it.

Even if I consider the idea of ancient astronauts, I don't see the civilization here on Earth being super sophisticated or anything.

The flute was sophisticated, not neandrethal, but the glyphs, the hand writing. Says it all!
And don't forget this is absolute proof of a civlization with language and music/culture/arts, over 36,000 years ago, (with the very high chance due to recent findings that carbon dating often under ages things) which flies in the face of the resident archeologists words.

This alone rewrites out entire history books and puts civilization at dates of 30000-90000, remember you can even triple the carbon dating. The kind of makes sense because I remember hearing of a phoenician instrument they used for brain surgery, highly advanced technique by the way at around 65,000 years.

There were no nuclear weapons, giant telescopes, or other amazing contraptions over 10,000 years ago. I always get a chuckle when I hear this. To create such things, you'd need manufacturing. You can't make that stuff out of twigs and sticks and rocks you know. So, it means factories, pollution, and all the things WE generate when we make stuff like weapons and cars and whatever else we make.

We've never found a whiff of that sort of thing. A piece of glass is hardly proof that they were building nuclear weapons over 10,000 years ago. If they find a weapons factory, ok.. then I'll listen.

reply to post by Unity_99


That is a pretty slippery slope. I mean, what else are you presuming based on the finding of the flutes? Seems like quite a lot.
I've seen the flutes you speak of. 'handwriting?' I've seen chimpanzees write equally as eloquently.
This hardly means high civilization.

I've also seen orangutans use blades of grass as a whistle.

Just sayin.

reply to post by Unity_99


Also, I defy you to show me evidence of Phoenician brain surgery 65,000 years ago.
I think you must be mistaken in this.

reply to post by JayinAR


The searches on google vary the date, but I do remember now, its Bill Holden:



good stuff! Now, his word versus an archeologist who cant find any evidence of human civilzation beyond 3000-9000 years, when theres a freaking 36000 year old flute found in Bosnia, not to mention China, India and numerous things. I'll run with Holden, he hasn't been proved a liar in this.

Oh, I wonder, gee.....would this be the tie, the reason they are so quick to bury our ancient past? Just a hint.

[edit on 20-11-2009 by Unity_99]