I smell here ... hmmmm ... the biggest conspiracy in human history.

reply to post by Durabys


1) Because ignorant people are annoying. I've been bringing facts to the brainless just here on ATS for four years, with regards to some of the basics of archaeology... and still, the same people keep asking the same questions, over and over. I can only imagine if this were part of my job. I would get rather aggressive towards people who prefer to be ignorant.

2) Because he gets irritated by the assertion that Egyptians are too stupid to have ever carved a rock. Which is, essentially, what all of these claims amount to. I imagine it gets doubly annoying when paired with...

3) ...the idea that stone-age Bosnians were able to build a GIGANTIC pyramid in a difficult geometric shape, at the same time the Egyptians are incapable of building simpler designs. Think about it for a moment. There is absolutely no evidence supporting a pyramid in that Bosnian hill. None. yet there simply must be a pyramid there, because an aggressively nationalist Bosnian archaeologist says there is. Odd double standard there. Zahi Hawass, with his mountains of evidence that the stuff in Egypt was made by Egypt, is denigrated and derided and hated by the same community that asserts that Semir Osmanagic, with his utter lack of evidence and supporting claims is 100% right. Of course, Mr. Osmanagic and the Bosnians are white, and Mr. Hawass and the Egyptians aren't...

4) Because there are mo such radioactive ruins. It's a lie, told to you by people who know you're a gullible fool who will accept anything so long as they say the "mainstream" doesn't accept it. And then they'll sell you books. congratulations, you've fallen for a marketing scheme.

[edit on 20-11-2009 by TheWalkingFox]

I too, have been wondering about what it is about pre-10000 that drives the archaeologists crazy. The water erosion of the Sphynx is the one that really provides the 'proof' in my mind. Geologists confirm it, Egyptologists deny it....vehemently. very strange.

I wonder if there wasn't at least one if not more very advanced civilizations before us. Think about it....until roughly 160 years ago or so mankind was in the stone age. Then, boom! We rapidly developed technology that can take us into space.

Who's to say that same thing didn't happen 20,000 years ago? Almost all evidence would be gone by now if it was destroyed in some cataclysm. Look at houses and buildings from as few as 50 years ago...if they aren't taken care of, they return to nature quickly. All our plastic would disintegrate over time...in 20,000 years there will be very little left to prove we were here. Maybe a few concrete structures but not much else....

I wonder if TPTB know the truth of earlier civs. and choose not to tell us for fear of panic....if we knew that we were going to be destroyed how likely would our society be of having the motivation to advance?

Curiouser and curiouser....

Annie

Originally posted by TheWalkingFox
reply to post by Durabys

 

1) .... ignorant people are annoying. .... brainless just here on ATS ..... basics of archaeology... ..... people who prefer to be ignorant.

2) .... irritated by the assertion that Egyptians are too stupid..... it gets doubly annoying when paired with...

3) ...... aggressively nationalist Bosnian archaeologist ... [Hawas] is denigrated and derided and hated by the same community that asserts that Semir Osmanagic, .... right.


---> Of course, Mr. Osmanagic and the Bosnians are white, and Mr. Hawass and the Egyptians aren't...

4) ... It's a lie, .... you're a gullible fool who will accept anything so long as they say the "mainstream" doesn't accept it......

The underlying angst in your response is quite tangible. Are you taking the questions as a personal slight?

Those to whom you refer as ignorant ask the question because it has not been answered to their satisfaction. Many of the questions raised are matters of speculation to begin with, so how any scientists can answer authoritatively on subjects they refuse to research or study is just as frustrating as those who will not accept the answer you insist upon.

Part of the problem is the projection by academicians and researchers that their knowledge is especially comprehensible only to them and those they have indoctrinated.

The OP begins with "I'm only asking questions" you respond with a diatribe about ignorance and foolishness. You have not served any purpose towards eliminating the ignorance you lament... You don't have to be acerbic and demeaning to make a point, do you?

You allude to racism, and a litany of other forms of human failing ....

Do you feel better for having said it?

Is there something about Bosnians you wish to say? Is the inquiry into these matters threatening to you, or somehow offensive?

[edit on 20-11-2009 by Maxmars]

mayan pyramids had battery powered lights in them that when fruit juice acid was added they powered up.
found in a piece of volcanic rock dated at 20,000 years 1 CAPACITOR inside.
found green glass in Egypt ,Mongolia around the first nuke test above ground and i bet you the list is endless.
now a site where 1/2 hour is all you can dig cant be a storage site for spent fuel rods or is it a leaky dump from either ancient or modern times ,remember their words it is a SAFE source of POWER -well in one way or another all of our drinking water comes from a WELL under ground and when their spent fuel rods break they leach where IN TO OUR WATER supply.
question ?
how many ages or times have we destroyed this world or almost in the past ?
how many more lies concerning climate change do we believe from our governmental scientists who are on the mans payroll?

and now the Egyptian government is walling in a new dig site i wonder what they are about to hide and lie about again.
THE MAN is a consummate LIAR who cannot help himself ,nor his minions as they all flock to his MONEY TREE,like birds of a feather.

Originally posted by Maxmars

Originally posted by TheWalkingFox
reply to post by Durabys

 

1) .... ignorant people are annoying. .... brainless just here on ATS ..... basics of archaeology... ..... people who prefer to be ignorant.

2) .... irritated by the assertion that Egyptians are too stupid..... it gets doubly annoying when paired with...

3) ...... aggressively nationalist Bosnian archaeologist ... [Hawas] is denigrated and derided and hated by the same community that asserts that Semir Osmanagic, .... right.


---> Of course, Mr. Osmanagic and the Bosnians are white, and Mr. Hawass and the Egyptians aren't...

4) ... It's a lie, .... you're a gullible fool who will accept anything so long as they say the "mainstream" doesn't accept it......

The underlying angst in your response is quite tangible. Are you taking the questions as a personal slight?

As I mentioned, ignorance annoys me.

Those to whom you refer as ignorant ask the question because it has not been answered to their satisfaction. Many of the questions raised are matters of speculation to begin with, so how any scientists can answer authoritatively on subjects they refuse to research or study is just as frustrating as those who will not accept the answer you insist upon.

I find that these people will not be satisfied until scientists just throw up their hands, and say that caucasian atlantean space aliens did all of it. Even then I have my doubts. Basically, the people in question choose to keep themselves ignorant of fact. I generally presume that this is because playing pretend is more fun for them than actually knowing facts.

Part of the problem is the projection by academicians and researchers that their knowledge is especially comprehensible only to them and those they have indoctrinated.

No, it's not. Just because some people are too stupid to understand basic history doesn't mean that there's a giant conspiracy against them. It just means that they're stupid. Sometimes, it really is just that simple.

You want incomprehensible? Incomprehensible is believing that a dude digging up nothing but dirt and the occasional medieval pottery shed out of a hill in Bosnia is actually exposing the world's biggest pyramid. Incomprehensible is the statement that actual pyramids could never have been built by people, and that space aliens had to have done it. Incomprehensible is the statement that there are millions of deadly radioactive skeletons in Mohenjo-Daro's ruins, despite the complete lack of any evidence at all, and the sustained good health of the people who excavated the place.

You want indoctrination? Take a look at all the people who refuse to believe that maybe, just maybe, the bible / koran / baghvad gita / Edgar Cayse books are not absolute truth and historical documents.

The OP begins with "I'm only asking questions" you respond with a diatribe about ignorance and foolishness. You have not served any purpose towards eliminating the ignorance you lament... You don't have to be acerbic and demeaning to make a point, do you?

"I'm only asking questions" then leads to assertions of a global cover-up and conspiracy that centers around a bunch of bullcrap pulled off crystallinks, David Icke, and other assorted goobers and nutballs. You want to cure the ignorance? Go look in ATS' "Ancient and lost civilizations" forum. Harte, myself, and many others have addressed the points time, and time, and time, and time again.

You allude to racism, and a litany of other forms of human failing ....

Do you feel better for having said it?

Is there something about Bosnians you wish to say? Is the inquiry into these matters threatening to you, or somehow offensive?

[edit on 20-11-2009 by Maxmars]

No problem with Bosnians. However I find it really weird that the same people who insist that societies in Egypt and mesoamerica that we know were technologically adept could not possibly have ever built any of their monuments and pyramids... But a comparatively primitive society in neolithic Bosnia could have, and for evidence we have a... hill.

My problem are the ignorant racists who subscribe to the "brown peopel can't stack rocks" school of pseudohistory.

I find it absolutely mindboggling how most people seem so confident that our civilization knows EVERYTHING about human history. Any time I read an article or book on history, especially when it comes down to the dawn of civilization, I am amazed at how confident the author is that the current accepted idea of history is the real one, and that any suggestions otherwise are made by uneducated, irrelevant people.

There is evidence that suggests human civilization could have been around for thousands, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, or even MILLIONS of years! While living on such a dynamic planet that is constantly changing, evidence can be wiped out in instants. Out of the few million years the modern man has been around, we have found less than 20 groups fossils of human remains that stretch beyond the few hundred thousand year mark.

I remember reading an article somewhere that stated that if our civilization were to collapse, it would only take a few thousand years for almost ALL of the evidence of our civilization to vanish. There could have been thousands of ancient earth civilizations that existed! Take these pictures and explanations for an example (a part of a site from a link that was posted in a thread here a few days ago):

mmmgroup.altervista.org...

reply to post by TheWalkingFox


Fair enough. I agree that many people are inclined to accept as fact, things which are told to them, but not verified in any way.

I am no scholar in the field, and make no pretense of denying that I find these archeological flights of fancy quite fascinating, even if only as a phenomenon in and of itself. But I find that the OP has touched (lightly) upon something which seems like anathema to scholars and specialists in the field:

That they themselves have developed as culture which no longer registers as scientific, but is instead somewhat dogmatic.

You are right, people believe the darnedest things....

And I can't argue that the OP doesn't assert, or at least strongly imply, that the subject is one of rejection of fact.

Since I am the lesser informed here, I would not presume to debate you on the subject of all the different celebrities and characters of the field; but I think that there are still some significant disconnects in the time line we are so wholeheartedly told to accept.

There are indications that the history of mankind as a community did not begin with Sumeria; there are anomalies in our archeological records that seem to raise the hackles of professionals in the field. Some of them even make sense if you presume that the experts are not the all-knowing keepers of ancient knowledge as popular media labels them.

Personally, I am interested in the debate, and how knowledge evolves from observation to fact in the collective scientific mind.

[edit on 20-11-2009 by Maxmars]

reply to post by TheWalkingFox


Will you please stop trying to make this a race debate?

"brown people can't stack rocks" pseudo-history... really?

I've never heard of the Bosnian pyramid theory, and frankly I do not care about it, as it could be nonsense like many other things. My own personal opinion of course.

What I do have a problem with is the current trend of the 'educated' among us not willing to explore other theories further. As if it just ends with Egypt and that's it. We haven't been able to study ancient Egypt for very long to begin with. What separates ancient Egypt from the rest of history is pure unadulterated speculation. This is how our knowledge of Egypt got to where it is today; Educated speculation.

I'm pretty sure no one is saying 'brown people can't stack rocks', considering the academic field 'discovering' ancient Egypt as we know of it today were mostly caucasian and still are to some degree. Old fossil professors being phased out of a racist era, the truth sadly.

So if that's what this is about, an argument that nobody wants to accept that 'brown people' were the pioneers of civilization.. well, that's disgusting and unfounded.

reply to post by Durabys


Most of these archaeologists have probably spent most of their lives trying to prove a certain theory. Bringing up things that contradict their theories probably does worry them because no one likes finding out that they wasted their time.

If you get a chance, read a book called "Forbidden History"

Each chapter is written by a different scientists/archaeologist that went against the grain and questioned the status quo, coming up with interesting theories that make sense regarding ancient cultures. The sad part is that most of these people were so excited when they made a discovery, only to be ridiculed and losing all credibility with their peers. How frustrating!

So, maybe its not that these people you speak of dont want to believe, perhaps they do and are just fearing for their reputation. Just like the whole UFO thing.

I personally get a kick out of Dr. Hawass and the fact that he knows EVERYTHING that ever took place on the Giza plateau. And that you are out of your mind if you question him about anything. The man is a media whore and can't wait to get in front of the cameras with his latest great "discovery".

Ask him for permission to explore somewhere on the site to pursue a theory you may have, and if it doesn't fit exactly with his preconceived opinion about what did or did not take place there, you might as well go tip over rocks in New Jersey.

Ask him about the hidden Hall of Records and then stand back because he will get so agitated that he looks like he is going to have a stroke.

I hope someone does discover the "Hall" someday, not just because of the earth shattering information it may contain, but just to rub his nose in it. There needs to be a change of leadership there. Someone with a little more open mind.

It's a conspirisah!

I don't think it's so much a globalist or an elite society's doing as much as it is the people on the ground not being able to accept evidence that runs contrary to the status quo. In that case, it's not really a conspiracy so far as not everyone is getting together to prevent this knowledge but a lot of academics are taught to think in quite a rigid framework of mind. This falls outside the box and there becomes a disconnect. Blame the regimented schools of thought more than the so called progenitors of a coverup.

I believe it's John Anthony West who speaks of "knowledge filters" where information that doesn't fit within the framework of thought given to you in the schools you earned your degree then you filter out what they say is incontrovertible evidence. It seems crazy because as a scientist you would be obliged to accept data even if it is anathema to your hypothesis but we don't find that that is the case. I suppose after years of research, articles written, awards won, books signed you would be hesitant to see your life's work fall into shambles when you realize you might just be wrong on every single thing. With that said people will just become married to their ideas and their framework and will fight to keep it that way regardless if deep down a little part of them might be screaming at them to own up.

They say it takes a big man to apologize for his mistakes what kind of man would it take to recant their life's work. A very humble man and that is something that is very rare in academia. As a matter of fact the last person I can think of is dear Steven Hawking who recanted a theory of his about space. Point is, I just think it's human behavior to filter out certain things. It's part of the baser of man's instincts and it's one lesson that the humble man can teach to the most learned.

reply to post by merryxmas


That reminds me of a dialogue I heard regarding "Bias of Confirmation."

Sadly, most scientist refuse to accept that they may be subject to such bias.

S&F.
Like with almost everything, archeologist get funded by the establishment and they of course will not allow anyone who has controversial views or findings to contradict the current accepted reality.

Interesting discussion. Most people I know with a scientific background (meaning they have been taught and regularly use the Scientific Method, so engineers and doctors as well) are actually excited to learn that they are wrong in an surprising way. They are disappointed to learn that they are wrong in a pedestrian way. Anyone with a scientific background worth a hoot has been taught that there is no shame in being wrong. To the contrary, the shame is in insisting you are right in the face of contradicting evidence. Science is a gradual process of becoming less wrong with each iteration. To hold an shakeable conviction that your conclusion is correct is decidedly unscientific.

I think the annoyance comes into it when people who do not hold themselves to the same rigor blithely question the conclusions of people who are accustomed to needing a lot more than doubt to unearth a prominent theory. To politely ask questions sewing the seeds of doubt is usually met very graciously, on the other hand. I have often heard a response beginning with "Well, the truth is we don't know for certain, but here's why we think that's the way it is..."

I don't know enough about google maps to say what I am looking at. Maybe it is someones idea of a joke, but if you look at the link I am including, you will see what appears to be the remains of a sunken city northwest of the Canary Islands. Anyone ever notice this before?

[edit on 20-11-2009 by butcherguy]

[edit on 20-11-2009 by butcherguy] I can't get this link to go up there. The location is approximately 350 miles WNW of the Canary Islands and is plain to see.

[edit on 20-11-2009 by butcherguy]

Originally posted by thereaintnospoon
S&F.
Like with almost everything, archeologist get funded by the establishment and they of course will not allow anyone who has controversial views or findings to contradict the current accepted reality.

The Establishment is still made up of people like you and I. There is always indoctrination and inclination to accept information more readily from one source than another. That applies even if your inclination is to apply less skepticism to conspiracy theories about the new world order than you do to the theory of evolution.

reply to post by Durabys

Because... when scientists go out to prove a theory, they put a lot of work into doing so. The reward being fame, grants, and helping write history. Nobody wants their theory to be proven false.
When theories are then based on other theories, based on other theories... pretty quickly there are a lot of people involved with vested interest in making sure these theories remain in tact.
If something is found which disproves one of these theories, the whole house of cards comes falling down.
So the 'establishment' just labels alternatives 'quack theories' so they don't have to answer the tough questions that may end up taking them down.

[edit on 20-11-2009 by mecheng]

reply to post by TheWalkingFox


Wait a minute - there are some questions here that remain unanswered, especially about the Sphinx. Questions that you can't answer and that Dr. Hawass can't answer, if fact NO archaelogist can answer...like why it is that - in the midst of all these perfectly proportioned, perfectly aligned pyramids, statues and artifacts - there stands a monument with a head that is out of proportion to the body (the Sphinx). That question has never been answered...there is only speculation about this....and its not a stretch, given Dr. Schoch's work on the Sphinx, to consider that the Sphinx MAY have been there much longer than the pyramids - and the Egyptians simply re-carved the original head into the face of a Pharoah. Combine this with the fact that there has never been found any mention of the Sphinx's construction in any Egyptian text. This is, of course, only speculation - but there is as much "evidence" for this theory as there is for any other - Dr. Hawass' theory included.

Per this statement made above, I cannot locate anything about it but am interested. Does anyone have any sources to this:
"4)Why is there absolute silence in the MSM about radioactive debris found in old antique by "fire" destroyed cities in Pakistan and India (near new delhi they were building a new residential area, when workers became sick. They learned there are ruins of an old city there, where human skeletons[thousands] werent in the middle of it but on the outskirts of it, facing not the center. Even now archelogists have a permision only for an half an hour to dig there out of health dangers). No crater found, therefor no meteorite impact.
+ Nuclear green "New Mexico-Nevada" like glass found there (+ same glass found on the Sinai penisula, Lybian desert, Mongolian Wastelands near the chinese borders ... "I don´t think i am right with Sinai thing, sorry.")
+ The nearest nuclear facility is hundrerds of miles away."

I think it intuitively makes sense that many human civilizations have lived before. It doesnt make sense that we are supposed to be the first ones, when there is evidence to the contrary all over the planet. We may even have populated Mars and the moon before which is why NASA is covering up our solar system. Oh, and the UFO's that are not supposed to exist either.

Perhaps all this effort is because they want to keep public knowledge down as much as possible, so there are no wars that are not constructed by them anymore. That way, the elites are very safe and the world can be constructed in a way that gives them all the control over our species.

I also think Nibiru is real and is what has caused some of the civilization wipe outs. After each, aliens probably put some new clones on the planet and started the whole thing again, with people painting aliens on rocks and cave walls to tell future humans what they were experiencing.

It just fits.


[edit on 20-11-2009 by Copernicus]