I beg of you read this. Stop the drama...

Originally posted by socrates271
The one issue Drave, is that people aren't willing to grow up. That's what as you said we need to form a group of people who are willing to accept responsibility for their actions.

My email is [email protected], we can discuss further there, I have a brother who deals with website marketing, he can get us space for a website, but let me know if you're interested.


Let's not make this another fad, but let's take this moment to look at ourselves without immature thoughts of society, leading towards self-destructive behavior.

[edit on 8-11-2009 by socrates271]

buddy, no offense but it is those that actually think this sort of movement is accomplishable in the US that need to grow up and mature. Like I have said, I wish this was something that could work here but it isn't once you understand socio-economic structure of India at that time, and compare it to the US now.

Part of growing up is not just depending on emotion or rhetoric, but also doing a good deal of research and critical reasoning. That is what mature adults do. That is being grown up. Nearly half of this country pays no income tax. The top 25% of tax payers pay 90% of the income taxes. Which means roughly 10-15% of the population basically supports the rest. You will never get that segment of the population into your movement.

So I am sorry, but it is you and the OP that need to grow up a bit. I don't mean that in a mean way, but if you truly understand Gandhi's movement from the perspective of India's situation at the time, you know it is not accomplishable here. It is very immature and naive to think otherwise.

Try not to think of the strategy that you WANT to work, but instead to think of the sort of strategy that WOULD work for our socio-economic structure.

[edit on 8-11-2009 by johnny2127]

Originally posted by johnny2127

Originally posted by socrates271
The one issue Drave, is that people aren't willing to grow up. That's what as you said we need to form a group of people who are willing to accept responsibility for their actions.

My email is [email protected], we can discuss further there, I have a brother who deals with website marketing, he can get us space for a website, but let me know if you're interested.


Let's not make this another fad, but let's take this moment to look at ourselves without immature thoughts of society, leading towards self-destructive behavior.

[edit on 8-11-2009 by socrates271]

buddy, no offense but it is those that actually think this sort of movement is accomplishable in the US that need to grow up and mature. Like I have said, I wish this was something that could work here but it isn't once you understand socio-economic structure of India at that time, and compare it to the US now.

Part of growing up is not just depending on emotion or rhetoric, but also doing a good deal of research and critical reasoning. That is what mature adults do. That is being grown up. Nearly half of this country pays no income tax. The top 25% of tax payers pay 90% of the income taxes. Which means roughly 10-15% of the population basically supports the rest. You will never get that segment of the population into your movement.

So I am sorry, but it is you and the OP that need to grow up a bit. I don't mean that in a mean way, but if you truly understand Gandhi's movement from the perspective of India's situation at the time, you know it is not accomplishable here. It is very immature and naive to think otherwise.

Try not to think of the strategy that you WANT to work, but instead to think of the sort of strategy that WOULD work for our socio-economic structure.

And the drama rolls in

reply to post by socrates271


Good job not even addressing the substance of my post and why it cannot work here. Grow up buddy.

reply to post by Draves


Growing up and joining the adult world means a lot more than going to and from work everyday earning a paycheck. You have to fight, and make sacrifices. Violence is not something people want. Fighting, is a sacrifice we make to ensure a good life not only for ourselves, but for those who are too young, old, or disabled to do fight for themselves.

Nobody is going to give me anything for free. Everything comes at a price.

When you make the sacrifice, and fight, it is usually not for yourself. I fight for my children. There are people out there who want what I have. There are people out there who feel that my children and I should not be alowed to live. When they take from me, they take from my children. It is my job to protect them. It is not just burglers or terrorists who threaten the security of my childrens future. Sometimes it can be the government. I am sure that all the above would love it if I would just sit there and do nothing. I do not have that luxury. If I do nothing, it puts their lives at risk. It is my responsibility to protect them.

You know, your post itself sounds very dramatic. Think of the title - isn't that high drama? I beg of you please read, etc.?

If you don't like drama, don't do drama. If some ATS members do drama, then just avoid reading their posts. There are plenty of non-dramatic posts and threads going on here.

But you're likely to find that, whenever you're discussing a topic that people feel passionate about, someone is going to do drama. So what? Ignore it. Drama isn't going to reach out and grab you. It's just how some people talk or write. ZOMG!!! TEH WORLD IS ENDING!!!!11!!

Ignore it.

Originally posted by mrsdudara
reply to post by Draves

 

Growing up and joining the adult world means a lot more than going to and from work everyday earning a paycheck. You have to fight, and make sacrifices. Violence is not something people want. Fighting, is a sacrifice we make to ensure a good life not only for ourselves, but for those who are too young, old, or disabled to do fight for themselves.

Nobody is going to give me anything for free. Everything comes at a price.

When you make the sacrifice, and fight, it is usually not for yourself. I fight for my children. There are people out there who want what I have. There are people out there who feel that my children and I should not be alowed to live. When they take from me, they take from my children. It is my job to protect them. It is not just burglers or terrorists who threaten the security of my childrens future. Sometimes it can be the government. I am sure that all the above would love it if I would just sit there and do nothing. I do not have that luxury. If I do nothing, it puts their lives at risk. It is my responsibility to protect them.

I agree, PROTECT children from HEALTHCARE at all COSTS!!!

I am in minority.
I think You are right about the way out of this mess world is in.
People if united can change thinks without violence.
There are lot of examples this works in real word - in Poland there was a change (solidarity movement - controlled but partly used this way), in France people quite often go to street and they change what they oppose, in England there were recently spontanious strikes - strikes were sparked through internet forums (the government/ Brown was surprised).

We need a change, big change. We need true democracy.
We live in times when it becomes more possible:
- internet my be used to coordinate people
- times are harder, people feel pain:- higher costs of living, more government, less freedom.

But:
- people are divided, manipulated,
- people are busy, tired,
- people are physical, they have credit burdens, they have to eat, pay rent, pay for lot of thinks and so they have to work = slavery.
- in US people think they can win with they guns (not so in Europe),

As people have not grown up yet this movement needs to be focused on education first. The movement needs a target/plan to accomplish. This target can not be just a strike against taxes as people are divided - it should be aimed at systemic change - implementation of direct democracy, system similar but better than in Switzerland/ power to the people, the internet makes it possible. You see in Switzerland people can revoke a bill passed by parliament, they can enforce new law, they can even force government to reduce taxes...

Originally posted by randyvs
reply to post by Draves

 

WTH Are you still dreaming? Stop dwelling on it. Let the thread die.
Thank God you have no avatar for people to remember you.
I gaurantee when you comeback you won't be any less battle hardened.
Make the best of everything partner. harsh yes. I promise you it isn't meant in a mean way. Most of the good people here at ATS are just that.
I do try to be one of them. I hope you will see that.

The proof of that people are flagging you.
I just can't bring myself to.

[edit on 8-11-2009 by randyvs]

There I have an avatar now. Will that make a difference

Battle hardened? What have you been smoking, eh?

I know to make the best of everything. Make every moment count. I have had that experience this year when my dad died in front of me (i'm 24), and I had to give him CPR because my mom couldn't do it anymore (and shes a nurse), and i had to make the call to pull the plug after they "revived" him 8 times. I was also told he couldn't feel anything on the table but that I needed to say my last words. I said my last words. How can you hear and not feel? Then I look back after saying my words and he had tears running down his cheeks. I have gone through plenty and in know how to live.

I am enjoying talking with all of you. I am thrilled I finally made a post that made someone listen/respond. I am doing what I want right now.

This thread contains some of my most intimate thoughts that I share with no one. I need a place to talk about them. It does not mean however that these thoughts are worthless. It is what we all need to stand up for. We can do so much more, but never do.

Live life to the fullest....ahh....if only we all did.

Wow - That was scary, not the posting but the dream I had later

Accept Responsibility. Amen.

reply to post by Draves


I find it very telling that neither you or anyone that agrees with you will address the issues I have brought up why this cannot work in the US, and why it was possible in India at that time. Faced with facts, you just stay silent and pretend like nothing was brought to your attention.

Sorry, your wish of being America's Gandhi will not come true...

Originally posted by JacekPL
I am in minority.
I think You are right about the way out of this mess world is in.
People if united can change thinks without violence.
There are lot of examples this works in real word - in Poland there was a change (solidarity movement - controlled but partly used this way), in France people quite often go to street and they change what they oppose, in England there were recently spontanious strikes - strikes were sparked through internet forums (the government/ Brown was surprised).

We need a change, big change. We need true democracy.
We live in times when it becomes more possible:
- internet my be used to coordinate people
- times are harder, people feel pain:- higher costs of living, more government, less freedom.

But:
- people are divided, manipulated,
- people are busy, tired,
- people are physical, they have credit burdens, they have to eat, pay rent, pay for lot of thinks and so they have to work = slavery.
- in US people think they can win with they guns (not so in Europe),

As people have not grown up yet this movement needs to be focused on education first. The movement needs a target/plan to accomplish. This target can not be just a strike against taxes as people are divided - it should be aimed at systemic change - implementation of direct democracy, system similar but better than in Switzerland/ power to the people, the internet makes it possible. You see in Switzerland people can revoke a bill passed by parliament, they can enforce new law, they can even force government to reduce taxes...

Saddly we are not and have never been a democracy. We are a republic.
Democracy:
1. Government by the people, exercised either directly or through elected representatives.
2. A political or social unit that has such a government.
3. The common people, considered as the primary source of political power.
4. Majority rule.
5. The principles of social equality and respect for the individual within a community.

Republic:
1.
1. A political order whose head of state is not a monarch and in modern times is usually a president.
2. A nation that has such a political order.
2.
1. A political order in which the supreme power lies in a body of citizens who are entitled to vote for officers and representatives responsible to them.
2. A nation that has such a political order.
3. often Republic A specific republican government of a nation: the Fourth Republic of France.
4. An autonomous or partially autonomous political and territorial unit belonging to a sovereign federation.
5. A group of people working as equals in the same sphere or field: the republic of letters.

The difference is that the democracy has more power. If you look farther (beyond simple definitions) you will see it. Democracy would be great. Communism and socialism could be great as well as long it is controlled by the people.

It all boils down to us. We need to control things. It doesn't matter what we choose as long as WE choose it. That's it.

So we should educate first and implement democracy? I'd like to go faster.

If everyone stood in solidarity, peaceful change would be a very real possibility. But on just about every issue imaginable, there are always two sides. Whether it's fiscally or morally conservative or liberal, there is always another side to the coin. People can't even agree on what would seem like obvious answers to certain issues. That doesn't rule out peaceful methods as a means for bringing about change.

In fact, when conservatives start showing up to rallies with assault rifles and hateful picket signs they don't look more powerful. They make their movement look irrational and weak. It's the conservatives that can hold up a solid debate with an intelligent liberal all while keeping their cool that make their movement look stronger. It's the William F. Buckleys and the Noam Chomskys that are the strongest pieces on the chessboard, not an ex-military idealogue packing heat. The tea party's have seemed to be excessivly bloodthirsty and lacking of calm, collected, peaceful leadership in particular, aside from Dr. Paul of course.

If everyone liberal and conservative alike would be more rational and searched for truth rather than party line msm propaganda, the debates would reach a level where a well constructed consensus could be reached on some issues, but others will always be hopelessly polarizing.

Before we talk about any realistic change, whether peaceful or violent, we need to find some solidarity with one another. Without common ground, we will be tapped in this purgatory of political tug-of-war between administrations as we have always had.

Although talk IS cheap, talking about an issue is always a necessary first step before action can take place. It has been said that an ounce of action is worth a ton of theory, but I don't think an ounce of action that hasn't been thought through is worth anything.

So your talk of change has been extremely vague so far. What is the common ground you propose we seek out in order to create this peaceful resistance?

I think we can all agree that TPTB have too much unregulated power. That goes for both corporations and the government. Duh. But hey you have to start somewhere. I'm sure I will get some flak for that but it's about as close to solidarity as I can come up with.

But seriously, to the OP's point, drop the mindless bloodthirsty warcries and spend a little less time polishing your rifles and a little more time developing intelligent arguments,

Originally posted by johnny2127
reply to post by Draves

 

I find it very telling that neither you or anyone that agrees with you will address the issues I have brought up why this cannot work in the US, and why it was possible in India at that time. Faced with facts, you just stay silent and pretend like nothing was brought to your attention.

Sorry, your wish of being America's Gandhi will not come true...

Sorry man! So many posts so little time! It is hard to respond on a thread like this. I am trying to respond to everyone, but it is hard to explain myself, read all the posts, and respond at the same time. I'm trying.

I do not expect to be America's Gandhi.....wouldn't it be great though? Would you support it? If we could make this country the way we all wanted, based on truly popular vote, would you not take it? Gore would have won the popular vote. Would that be so bad? Healthcare would have never passed congress if it was a popular vote. How is this system so right? How can't it be changed? With unconstitutional taxes and damn near a police state the American public can't take much more. We are at a tipping point and we need to do something.

Yes, India had a very different climate/economy/culture than us. Do you really believe it can't work?

The rich pay most of the taxes.....great! They also depend on their income from US. Just because they are wealthy does not mean they are god-like. That is the way we treat the rich and it is terrible. If all the workers for a rich person quit how long would they stay wealthy?

It is not as simple as rich and poor. They got to where they are with our help. If they are not willing to help us then it is our responsibility to stop them and make things happen. We can change things.

We do not have to kill however. We can do this with peace. I promise you. I swear on my life (literal) we can change things when enough people come together. It is life. A majority vote. The things is when enough people actually care to have a say in the vote things will change. If half the USA decided to stop working would government not listen?

The economy is already in the crapper. We need to step up and let our voice known. We need to take peaceful ACTION and stop talking. We have tried talking and it has gotten us nowhere. We need a peaceful solution to a hostile situation. The government is ready to fire on the public. It is unconstitutional, but they are doing it. We need peace or there will be more bloodshed. Let it go. Stop this cycle of hate and anger. Find a Peaceful solution.

We are past war. We can talk. It is simple see? When you make a commitment to stop violence you make a peaceful war on our government. We really need it. I don't care about agendas. Popular vote. Things are not running that way and things are out of control.

Yes, the economy has shot up, but compare it to the gold standard. Inflation. We are printing money with no backing. That is another one of the many thank yous you can give our government. We are so in debt that we can't pay of the loans anymore and no one will buy our debt!

They blame debt on us. No no no. It is the government that has an issue. The USA consumer is an internal matter. The international debt (aka the governments debt) is the problem. Now that no one wants to buy our debt, countries are backing of the US dollar for trade, and we don't care..we have a problem.

We need a real change. It can only happen from us. Millions of minds working together are better than all the millionaires in congress. It can work.

It will work. This economy is more fragile that you can ever believe. A peaceful resistance will tank the whole thing. Then we can make change the way we want it! It is our god given right to overthrow this government when it gets the way it is. Look it up.

[edit on 11/8/2009 by Draves]

Originally posted by Commando717
Accept Responsibility. Amen.

Amen

When an idea is presented, you weigh its merits and how it would effect you personally.

peace is an emotive word..what would you have to give up to achieve it..
there are bullies in this world that are only strong because they have at their disposal many willing to follow them.

I think that if you want to move forward, it has to be away from the past.. the past has not worked..so lets try something new..

who knows what that something new will be..but at least we can think about it, talk about it....to live without hope for a better future , what would be the point.

I'm in too - I want the madness to stop, we are better than this as a race, and I have already started changing my ways. I want to stand up with everyone else now, be counted, make it count. We can be the masters of our own destiny if we work together.

Thank you for your post and effort in trying to get the message across.

I agree we need a plan, and we need to get power back form the lying governments of this world, and put in place a new system. Was it Thomas Jefferson that said when the old one doesn't work for the people anymore, throw them out and start again. I agree wholeheartedly.

Let's work together and abolish the systems we have in place at the moment, fixed by the evil people behind the scenes.

How shall we start?

I got two pages into reading the discussion and this popped in my head...

It was the best of times, it was the worst of times,
it was the age of wisdom, it was the age of foolishness,
it was the epoch of belief, it was the epoch of incredulity,
it was the season of Light, it was the season of Darkness,
it was the spring of hope, it was the winter of despair,
we had everything before us, we had nothing before us,
we were all going direct to Heaven, we were all going direct
the other way--in short, the period was so far like the present
period, that some of its noisiest authorities insisted on its
being received, for good or for evil, in the superlative degree
of comparison only.

- Charles Dickens

I'm going to return to page two now and continue reading the insightful and inspiring perspectives on both sides.

Carry on.

I'm truly not blood thirsty. I just want to see things change. I think we all know how to do it, at least I hope we do. My ideas are not thought up. They are products of the past that have worked in the past. There are many peaceful solutions we can do. I do not mean to string you along. what can we do? The best solution is for a large number of people to stop working and demand something. It would shut the country down until they were actually listened to. Another option is to stop paying taxes. Our forefathers did it. It worked....and started a war. Fortunately we are only paying taxes to the gov. They depend on us. Worst case scenario then a lot of people go to jail and it clog up the whole system. Who cares? Legal issues aren't as bad as you think. I had "my day in court." It isn't such a big deal. Living is what matters. When you die you will wish you did more. You will die, you will be forgotten, so make this world the way you want it.

It is so easy when we have enough numbers. Do you want to schedule a no work week to stop the healthcare bill? I'm game. What about stop working till the electoral collage is eliminated in favor of popular vote? I would never pass that up. If enough of us did it it would mean something. All we have to do is grow up. Take responsibility and change the world around us.