Number of victims to unknown virus growing! State of emergency to be imposed in Ukraine?

Originally posted by JJay55

Originally posted by Regenmacher
Yes, influenza can be limited to target specific group.
No, not everyone is deemed as incredibly stupid to consider it a bio-weapon.

SARS, MARS is the perfect example.
The only thing I could see different in the races was blood type. Asians tend to have more A and B blood types than the Americas.

The population exposed to SARS was limited. Given the hosts it would have infected many races. under pressure to find hosts the virus would mutate in order to be able to infect any available. This is why / how the flu virus jumps species.

There should be a scientific paper or two to back up that statement that flu can be targeted to a specific group. I'll stick with the assertion that it will mutate outside the target group eventually.

Let's not skip the fact that if the swine flu was a bio weapon at least one scientist should be speaking up and providing the proof of it.

Do you have even one scientist? I'll take a micro biologist, virologist - hell, anyone in the discipline.

Unsupported claims like that which you cannot prove are what I consider to be "sweeping generalizations".

N1N1??

Originally posted by ecoparity
Please, show me where I've made such a thing and where I display this "big brother is god" thing.

It sucks but I just can't trust any of the media sources from that area.

Now list what sources you trust and we can all have a look.

Here's another generalization of yours, or is that an attempt at comedy?

No one your father's age has died from swine flu. It only seems to kill the young and healthy.

It also makes you look much the fool when you say:

The population exposed to SARS was limited. Given the hosts it would have infected many races. under pressure to find hosts the virus would mutate in order to be able to infect any available. This is why / how the flu virus jumps species.

As you acknowledge it doesn't kill old people, which would mean the H1N1 is targeting a specific demographic.

You also proved my point in regards to bubble poking.

[edit on 13-11-2009 by Regenmacher]

Originally posted by Regenmacher

Originally posted by ecoparity
Please, show me where I've made such a thing and where I display this "big brother is god" thing.

It sucks but I just can't trust any of the media sources from that area.

Now list what sources you trust and we can all have a look.

Here's another generalization of yours, or is that an attempt at comedy?
No one your father's age has died from swine flu. It only seems to kill the young and healthy.

You also proved my point in regards to bubble poking.

Neither of those proves your BS accusation.

I don't trust the news media from Ukraine because they've reported amazing contradictions, I don't think anyone can deny that fact.

I don't trust any news media sources. I go and look for the original documentation even if it means putting out FOIA requests. So, sorry I don't have any "trusted" media sources to give you.

The statement you took out of context and seem to have trouble understanding was from a conversation where another posted said his elderly Father was given the swine flu vaccine. He's beyond the age group at risk and did not need to take the shot. I was pointing that out. The oldest swine flu victim I can find was in his fifties. The posters father is over the age of 65 (at least that's the impression I was given).

Now it's my turn:

Do you own a blog, website or forum centered on conspiracies or the swine flu conspiracy in particular?

Do you market or profit form the sale of alternative medical treatments or remedies?



[edit on 13-11-2009 by ecoparity]

www.nytimes.com...

HOUSTON — A 23-month-old boy from Mexico City became the first person to die of swine flu in the United States after being airlifted two weeks ago to a Houston hospital from the border town of Brownsville, where he had been visiting relatives, officials said.

The above is the article about the first swine flu death in the US. Most people don't know he was the child of a multimillionaire from Mexico so unless the elite decided to kill them selves off with a bioweapon I can't see where this is a bioweapon set off by the elite.

[edit on 13-11-2009 by JBA2848]

reply to post by butcherguy


Ok, one more time:

To be useful as a weapon, the primary characteristic is controllability, i.e., it must be able to hit a specific target where, when and how you want it to.

In WWI, many of the countries fighting tried using various types of weaponized gasses: phosgene, mustard, chlorine. these attempts failed as weapons because they were not controllable, being dependent on factors beyond anyone's control: wind conditions and temperature, primarily.

After the war, virtually all major powers agreed to outlaw the use of lethal gasses, an easy agreement because, in the end, everyone realized that as a weapon, gasses were just as likely to effect your own troops as the enemy's. To this day, the only gas used in war is tear gas, because, while unpredictable, it's not directly lethal and can be easily protected against.

en.wikipedia.org...

Flu has the same problem, in spades. It is not controllable. since it is an RNA virus, there is NO, repeat, NO copy-proofing mechanism like DNA virii have, each "copy" is a sorta copy, a variant. Since the flu virus has a mere 8 genes, and a single virus will make up to a million copies per infected cell, that means every possible permutation will be made. Now, about 90% of those will be unviable copies when they break out of the infected cell and die immediately, but the others go on and repeat the process. If a person is infected with more than one type of flu virus, as happens occasionally, when they meet up in the body, they break up and reassort themselves, every single time, swapping their genes. This is why the very last thing you want to hear is that someone with bird flu also has the new flu, or that the new flu has infected bird flocks, that could be truly a nightmare scenario, bird flu has an 80% lethality rate. Fortunately, bird flu has a very low transmissability factor, but hooking up with A/H1N1 gives rise to the high probability to reassort combining the lethality of bird flu with the transmission characteristics of A/H1N1.

Yes, flu can be bio-engineered, but it will always be unstable, due to the very nature of what it is. Once you release it, it has several trillion chances to reassort in very, very nasty ways that can kill you before you can stop it. So by what logic would anyone deliberately release a bug that has the potential to kill or debilitate not just your enemies, but your friends and family, too? Would you risk releasing a weapon you couldn't predict, control, or stop?

No military I ever heard of would take that chance, generals are among the most conservative people you'll ever deal with: they utterly hate uncertainty and unnecessary risk. They want to win, not survive.

The ONLY people I would say you might find who would do such a thing are Armaggedonists. If you want to argue that insane Christians have done this to bring about end times, that one would be hard to disprove.

But to say that a military did it is simply foolish, springing from a lack of knowledge about how the military functions and thinks. From a military point of view flu is worse than useless as a weapon, being at least as dangerous to the user as the enemy, more so if you factor in world response if it were suspected strongly enough that YOU had released it.

So no, "weaponizing" flu is out due to the lack of controllability, a prime characteristic of all weapons programs.

As for what the 1918 flu did, what this bug is doing now; it mutated from a relatively benign form into a lethal form that swept the world a few times, then mutated away from lethality, because that is what flu virii do: they are extremely unstable.

I hope you understand now why trying to weaponize flu is a pretty pointless exercise, unless your goal is wiping out all humankind.

Originally posted by JBA2848
so unless the elite decided to kill them selves off with a bioweapon I can't see where this is a bioweapon set off by the elite.

Yes, there are turf wars and kids are targets. Vincenze Fox's son was involved with the Russian mafia a few years back. And there were about 5 Russian oligarchs around the same time that mysteriously were... murdered. But a multimillionaire is hardly an elite anymore. And the planet's wealthiest is a Mexican.

Originally posted by apacheman
To be useful as a weapon, the primary characteristic is controllability, i.e., it must be able to hit a specific target where, when and how you want it to.

Sorry, as a counter-terrorism professional I can tell you that I disagree. Bioweapons are used to threaten as well as deliver and are in the hands of groups like AQ. Wikipedia isn't going to tell you that.

reply to post by Falco_tinnunculus


I just read your post will be glad to supply you with info I have and have been toild also it is extremely dangerous and many women have lost children and the vaccine is a deadly designed project my advise do not take it!

reply to post by apacheman
I will say you nailed most of it on the head, with regard to organized armies. I will say that if we could speak to the dead I could put you in touch with some Kurds from Iraq that Saddam nerve-gassed. I think nerve gas counts as one of the lethal ones. Biologicals, RNA virus included, have been studied for years for weapons use. Terrorists present a whole different option.

reply to post by butcherguy


I am very glad there are other posters on here that realize the b.s. that is being presented is it not quite simple to realize as several have pointed out, how can you have melting lungs" in a swine flu? total b.s. I am really interested in why we on here are being persuaded to believe this garbage / a good poster out there has caught on to this and posted several times and the responses are so contradictary ; unreal, I believe without a doubt this is engineered and is a bio-product and also I feel you are on the same track I am curious who these people are working for?

Originally posted by apacheman
reply to post by wayno

 

Didn't say what it was other than being hemorrhagic. I agree it is still unknown, and welcome any input that actually contributes to understanding what it may be. I haven't offered any theories yet, just have been passing on what reports I can find and trying to make sense of the numbers.

Flu cannot be weaponized, period. It mutates too fast. I'd explain it in detail again, but I've done it so many times since April if I do again, I'll go mad. It's not theory, it's a fact.

But darkly squealing about conspiracies contributes nothing to the debate about what it IS. Especially when those squealing just offer empty circular reasoning strung together from rants in blogs without any proof.

I welcome any solid evidence anyone has to offer, so long as it is really verifiable with supporting documentation.

And no, I don't think the vaccines are effective or even necessarily safe, but not because I think they are a bioweapon, I just don't think they know enough about what it is to create one yet.

Arguing foolishly about weaponizing flu is like arguing how the fire started while the house burns down.

Flu *can* be weaponized. They can start off with a non-virulent form, and slowly introduce forms of the virus that are more fit for reproduction and transmission.. Therefor, they control the course of the "mutations".. All the while making it more and more lethal, with every wave, just like 1918. This is possible.
You're talking about top level geneticists, they KNOW what proteins to change, little by little, to make a virus more suitable for an environment, and more lethal. This is not rocket surgury, not the genome of a worm even, just a simple virus with very limited RNA sequences.

IMO influenza can be a BETTER bioweapon than anthrax, because it has perfect deniability. Look how many intelligent people even think it its "impossible".

That is MY opinion, but you must realize that your "facts" are just YOUR opinion, too.

No plan is too complicated for these people. They literally have all the resources in the world at their expenditure, and have had 40+ years to plan this brilliant scheme, and you best be assured they will leave no chance of getting caught, or having their efforts thwarted somehow.


Also, the argument that this virus would kill everyone is a moot point. Ever heard of vaccines??? yeah, the rich can afford to have ones made that actually work, for EVERY possible form of the virus they made, WITHOUT adjuvents in them. Yeah, they can afford that...


Also somebody else said this couldn't be a bioweapon because a rich Mexican's baby died... First of all, multi-millionaire is NOT elite, you need atleast billions. Second, the white elites never gave a damn about mexican elites, except drug dealers that the CIA could use to make money off of.

[edit on 13-11-2009 by seattletruth]

reply to post by butcherguy


hit it on the head again!

reply to post by JJay55


Disagree all you like, the facts remain the same. Show us some proof, other than the fevered imaginings of think-tank types. Terrorists could threaten nuking the world, too, but they lack the ability to do it.

Show me the funding, the research papers, anything substantial to back up your wild claims, and I'll consider it. But so far no one claiming it's a weapon has offered the slightest shred of proof for it, not even a single credible paper that postulates the possibility and techniques by which it could be accomplished.

Where's the science?

Anyway, everything that has occurred thus far is quite easily within the realm of natural events, without any need for wild conspiracies. I really don't understand why people feel a need to blame shadows when Momma Nature is perfectly capable of bitch-slapping the crap out of us all by herself.

Originally posted by ecoparity
Neither of those proves your BS accusation.

Yes, it all proves exactly what I indicated and you even incriminated yourself with that FOIA pitch. Original documentation from, besides big brother? I'll add on lack of credibility in your posts, since they are devoid of links and your are unaware of current events.

Putting it bluntly, you were making a fraudulent statement aka blatant lie is what you're doing in regards to saying who died or can die.

No one your father's age has died from swine flu. It only seems to kill the young and healthy

Elderly More Likely to Die From H1N1 Influenza Medscape

CDC Estimates of 2009 H1N1 Influenza Cases, Hospitalizations and Deaths in the United States, April – October 17, 2009

No and no, but ATS is the greatest conspiracy site on the net.
So why are you here? Trolling!? Then better read this!

[edit on 13-11-2009 by Regenmacher]

reply to post by JustMike



Mike, we weren't saying that the hospitals made up the numbers for the dead, or the numbers for people admitted in the hospital. We said that they made up the numbers of totals infected. The 1.25 million that they've counted in 2 weeks.

You really think a small group of people is sitting in an office taking 100,000 phone calls a day from people that are sick at home?

reply to post by unityemissions


good post there is a lot to this bio-weapon and incredibly stupid for people not to see it!

reply to post by Regenmacher


man tell it like it is , some how -eco and others who feel this is a dust storm oh. pardon me, a lab accidentI cannot believe the way,in face of everything still protecting vaccines, and the excuses why this couldn,t be a bio-weapon good post!

reply to post by seattletruth


Ok, who are "they"? Name names, please. Have you ever been around top-flight anythings? I have, and anyone skilled enough to be top of their profession usually have egos the size of ocean liners, getting them to agree to work on a weapon like flu and not talk about it is more incredible than the idea of weaponizing it in the first place. Getting them to forgo professional jealousy and not let the cat out of the bag is even more unlikely.

If they could figure out how to freeze the flu at a particular point and prevent it from mutating again, they would win the the Nobel prize several times over, as that would be the key to curing many other diseases.

The example of Hussein's use of VX against the Kurds is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. He gassed people far from his own troops, waited til the gas dissipated, then sent in troops. It's a special case that proves the rule. You don't use a weapon that will kill your own guys.

Please, show me the proof of your claims. Name a virologist who works on weaponizing flu, just one. Show me a paper that outlines the basic research that supports the idea. Anything, anything provable. I have an open mind, but not so open my brains are on the floor. All I ask is some verifiable proof.

Oh what a tangle web we weave, in this case it's flu.

Canadian Docs Warn Of Danger Using Tamiflu On H1N1 CBS


Ukraine to buy additional 700,000 doses of Tamiflu from Switzerland at UAH 67 per pack interfax.com.ua