Number of victims to unknown virus growing! State of emergency to be imposed in Ukraine?

reply to post by paxnatus


Dam good report pax that really does tell the story i for one have been saying there is a lot more to this than the average topics here lately this is a creation- a true bio- weapon

Mod Edit: All Caps – Please Review This Link.

[edit on 11/13/2009 by semperfortis]

reply to post by paxnatus


For the umpteenth time:

Flu is pretty much impossible to weaponize for the reasons that have been thoroughly explained many times before.

What is occurring is well within natural possibilities, and doesn't require any vast conspiracy to exist. And we all agreed that the evidence is solid for it being hemorrhagic a long time ago.

I understand the impulse and the fear, but how does it change anything even if your theory was true? We'd still be dealing with the same situation.

So unless you can cite positive or even probable proof, and show how it effects the progression or predicts the bug's future behavior, could we not waste time here on this, please? There are other threads for discussing conspiracy theories, really.

We've been trying report on stats and rates of infection, the progression of whatever it is that's causing it, using the best date we can find.

reply to post by apacheman


This is a thread about an "unknown virus". I think that is still the case. We are nowhere near having reached a conclusion about what this is.

I think all theories need to be explored to the fullest; not just yours. Please put away that muzzle.

We welcome all opinions; well, all that is except for the 3 or 4 people I have on ignore due entirely to their know-it-all or disruptive behaviour on this thread.

reply to post by apacheman


I wouldn't waste your time. Every few pages or so Pax pops in to post how it's a bacteria and not the swine flu, something that no other Dr in all of Ukraine or any virologist in the World can figure out and then Clouds posts right after to say "that's right!".

We can look forward to another page long post of why everyone else is wrong with zero evidence to back it up in the near future. I'm not even going to bother refuting it anymore. If people want to believe in fairy tales who am I to try and wake them?

It's comical at this point, no one wants to use logic on this thing. There is no reality other than the killer vaccine conspiracy.

I keep asking someone to explain the logistics of how it could possibly work and I just keep getting the same blog posts with no evidence over and over and over.

[edit on 13-11-2009 by ecoparity]

Originally posted by Cloudsinthesky
reply to post by paxnatus

 

You always bring an interesting light to the thread........

Likewise Clouds! As I recall you were one of the very first people to announce the WHO will use the H1N1 to force mass vaccinations, by creating a deadly virus and scaring us to death! Yet the real culprit would be the vaccine itself!!

It was brilliant then back in April or May I think, but even more so now!
In fact I think someone took that very idea and made a thread on it. Cant recall the name of that thread right now. Anybody?? Most important thing is we are putting all theories on the table.

kindly,
Pax

reply to post by wayno


Didn't say what it was other than being hemorrhagic. I agree it is still unknown, and welcome any input that actually contributes to understanding what it may be. I haven't offered any theories yet, just have been passing on what reports I can find and trying to make sense of the numbers.

Flu cannot be weaponized, period. It mutates too fast. I'd explain it in detail again, but I've done it so many times since April if I do again, I'll go mad. It's not theory, it's a fact.

But darkly squealing about conspiracies contributes nothing to the debate about what it IS. Especially when those squealing just offer empty circular reasoning strung together from rants in blogs without any proof.

I welcome any solid evidence anyone has to offer, so long as it is really verifiable with supporting documentation.

And no, I don't think the vaccines are effective or even necessarily safe, but not because I think they are a bioweapon, I just don't think they know enough about what it is to create one yet.

Arguing foolishly about weaponizing flu is like arguing how the fire started while the house burns down.

Originally posted by apacheman


But darkly squealing about conspiracies contributes nothing to the debate about what it IS. Especially when those squealing just offer empty circular reasoning strung together from rants in blogs without any proof.

Um... this IS a conspiracy theory website. That is the main reason why this website exists.
With all due respect, if you want to discuss this topic (or any topic) without someone bringing conspiracy theories into the argument, you should go to another website, because this is a website DEVOTED to conspiracy theories. Most of us on here WANT to discuss conspiracy theory....if we didn't, we'd be on a regular discussion board. Plus, she has offered solid arguments for her theory....not circular reasoning.

I'm not saying I necessarily agree with her theory (God knows my theories aren't necessarily right, either! lol! ) but she has offered good arguments for it, and this is a conspiracy theory website.

All theories and arguments should be allowed to be posted on this website.

[edit on 13-11-2009 by nikiano]

The hemorrhagic fever is caused by swine flu, exactly the same as it did back in 1918. There were no bio weapon flu viruses being used back then and it did exactly the same things it's doing now.

Influenza can cause hemorrhagic fever, it's a well known fact - look it up for yourselves. All the same symptoms being seen in Ukraine have been seen in this pandemic since Mexico City and were seen in the 1918 swine flu.

I have no clue why people keep trying to act like there's some "new" symptoms in Ukraine. The only difference in Ukraine is in the number of people affected by it.

Even the government and news media in Ukraine has come to that realization now that all the hysteria and rumors are dying out.

All I know is I haven't polluted the thread with false accusations against other posters and mislead people with changing theories as to what is killing people in Ukraine.

First it was the "plague", now it's some mysterious bacteria....

I'll step out on a limb and make a prediction. In the days and weeks to come the fact that Ukraine has been hit by swine flu will continue to be established fact. The "plague" and other bacteria illnesses will not.

I guess it really doesn't matter, there are already so many lies and rumors floating around about the pandemic, what's a few more going to hurt? It's not like anyone will die because they listen to this crap and decide not to get the vaccine or protect themselves, right?

I'm sorry, this is little Off Topic, but someone mentioned vaccine and unborn children that have died. Is there more information about it, or are they just rumors? I have heard same thing happening here in Finland, also babies have been born pretty fast right after the vaccine and some mothers have had intense contractions afterwards. Of course there's nothing about it in the news.

Hope that there is nothing in it, just a coincidence. I have many pregnant friends here, and many will take or have already taken the vaccine.

A couple or so pages back in this thread a member voiced an opinion along the lines that "they can't possibly have counted all the infected in Ukraine. Therefore they are tallying the deaths and extrapolating this number based on previous epidemics to give the number of infected."

Another agreed that this must be the case, because there is no way that the small number of staff collating the numbers of infected could take "100,000 phone calls per day".

I'd like to comment that it is normal procedure for hospitals to keep stats on the number of patients seen (examined) and also the numbers admitted. They need these details not just as a bunch of statistics, but because they have to follow-up claims with insurers (private or "National Health"), make decisions about such things as stocking and purchasing medicines and medical supplies, budget planning, staffing requirements, patient transport, linen cleaning and provisioning, and even meals.

They do not just pluck figures out of the air.

At least, that is what is normal here where I live in the Czech Republic. I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that Ukraine, which has a bureaucratic system built along almost identical lines to ours, would be operating its hospital data gathering along the same lines.

The usual procedure is that admin in each hospital compiles a daily summary of data about patients. This summary includes details about how many patients were examined, treated, admitted, died, discharged or transferred to other facilities. Like many things that get entered into data bases these days, it's all done by codes. Every medical condition has a code.

In an epidemic such as this one, the hospitals receive an instruction from their regional health office (via the Ministry of Health) to forward a summary of data for patients who have been identified by a specified set of codes. So all new patient treatments and admissions for those codes get forwarded either to a national collation center, or each region (oblast) receives them for hospitals in their region and then send them on to the national center.

In respect of reporting in such circumstances, doctors who have their own clinics (ie not in hospitals) follow basically the same procedures. They send the data on to their regional office, who then collate it and send it as a master report to the main center. There is likely to be some time lag here in collating the data from the doctors, but it gets there.

So, the scenario of a few people in a room somewhere taking tens of thousands of phone calls a day to gather this data is far from the reality. The data is sent to them either electronically or in hard-copy summary form, and then it's collated.

That's simply the way it's done. I don't know what is done in places like the US when centralized reporting of an epidemic is required, but I would hope that they use similar methods.

There are bound to be some "hiccups" in the figures as numbers can come in a bit spasmodically from some regions and then numbers for maybe two or more days get sent through together. This is not due to any plan to obscure or fudge the data: admin staff in the hospitals do the actual collating and sending of their facility's data and there is only a limited number of people within that pool of staff who are trained in how to do it.

It's a simple fact that if there is a widespread epidemic, then you are likely to have some of those hospital admin staff either off sick or staying at home to care for sick family members. Working in a hospital where there are so many infected patients also increases the odds of some staff getting sick.

There may even be some staff who have taken bereavement leave after the loss of loved ones...

It's natural then that sometimes the data will be delayed. We're talking about people here, and at the very least, they are under stress. There will be delays and there will be some mistakes. But to state that the Ukrainian govt can't possibly collect this data is simply untrue. Whether they are releasing the full figures is another matter and purely conjecture, and what number of infections go un-reported because people don't seek professional treatment is also conjecture. But you can be pretty sure that the Ukrainian govt has as much of the data as is available on any given day. And that's not conjecture.

Regards,

Mike

reply to post by JustMike


It's something to check into, definitely. I thought they were following previous nation's examples and counting everyone diagnosed with flu or reporting flu symptoms as "infected" even without a lab test to confirm it.

Just like the previous countries the WHO has only been counting lab test confirmed in the "tested + for H1N1". This allows them to maintain the same "no panic", "not that bad" storyline that people are all too happy to fall for.

What we're seeing now are large jumps in the number of "H1N1 positive" not just in Ukraine but in previous nations as well.

The as of yet unproven, and I stress that again, UNPROVEN theory is that they discovered two small mutations in Ukraine which will make the virus infect more people and kill more of those infected. The really bad part is that those increased deaths will be from hemorrhagic fevers, (destroyed lungs and drowning in blood, bleeding from every orifice, etc).

Because of this the WHO has run out of time to play the "not so bad" game and they need to convince people to take the virus seriously now. That means allowing the real stats to come out and at some point an announcement will be made, probably once the backstage preparations are made.

Once again, this is just a theory based on the mystery surrounding the Ukraine sequences and test results combined with the sudden dumping of infected and dead onto the statistics. There have been a few news articles lately which go into the fact that the virus is hitting us worse than we thought and so on, probably the WHO using the media to start warming up the public.

The flip side to this is it will feed the popular conspiracy, especially once they actually do start giving out the bad news and pushing people to get vaccinated. This may even lead to discussions of "mandatory vaccines" once again.

I think we may finally be close to that point where people have to decide to take the vaccine or move forward with isolating themselves. Which one is up to each individual, I just hope they don't move forward with using the squalene in the US and especially hope they don't try to make the vaccines mandatory.

I guess we'll see if this theory comes to fruition. Dr Niman is working his way into supporting it and he's not alone in that regard a/f/a the research community is concerned.

The really freaky thing is that these events are tracking the 1918 pandemic very closely still. Look for cases to begin appearing in NY in the next week or two as an indicator.


[edit on 13-11-2009 by ecoparity]

reply to post by ecoparity

I follow what you are sayin and you're right: there is no way they have lab-tested samples from a million infected people in the past few weeks.

When the doctors make a diagnosis, if they are not certain it's flu but the patient has acute flu-like symptoms then they will typically classify it as ARI (Acute Respiratory Syndrome) and perhaps add a note in the patient's file that it's probably flu.

The trouble is that some people can take this methodology to mean that all these infected people have flu or even swine flu. We really don't know that and neither do the doctors, so it's purely assumption.

On a related matter of assumptions, or at least what we read into what we -- errrm -- read, I remember a few pages back there was a discussion about this strange word "disstressindroma" and how people were trying to find it by google and so forth. There were various assumptions flying around about what it could mean.

Fortunately good sense prevailed and the answer eventually came out that it simply meant "distress syndrome", and that was perfectly correct. This is an example of what happens when eg an English word/phrase gets carried over into another language and is written in that language's characters and then gets translated back. I see this quite often when I'm translating or correcting Czech, especially with technical documents in the field of medicine.

Another problem with these odd-looking words is that even if they are taken straight from English, in a Slavonic language they must still conform to the grammatical standards in use. Hence you get odd endings to the words, depending on their gender (all nouns have gender -- m, f, or n -- in Slavonic languages), heir number (singular or plural) and also their case.

In the spirit of "deny ignorance", here's an example from Czech to show members what we are up against when we try to read a machine-translated text from eg Ukraine or another Slavonic-language country. I'll show the (nominative) forms for "one girl", "two girls" and "five girls", and ditto for "boy" and "boys".

One girl = jedna holka (Pronounced "yed-na hol-ka")
Two girls = dve holky ("d-vee-ay hol-key")
Five girls = pet holek ("pee-yet hol-ek")

One boy = jeden kluk ("ye-den klook" ["oo" sound as in "book")
Two boys = dva kluci (d-vaa kloo-tsee ["oo" sound as in "shoe"])
Five boys = pet kluku ("pee-yet klook-oo" [Sounds like "cuckoo" with an "l" thrown in!)

I won't even try to explain what happens to these words with each of the seven cases we use here. "Case" refer to the way nouns are treated according to what is happening. This is why we have the pronoun forms "I", "my" "mine" and "me", for example. They are used in different situations. Most Slavonic languages do the same with all nouns and not just pronouns! Suffice to say that without knowing the system, some words change so drastically that they are impossible to recognize as being a form of the root word.

Just imagine trying to convince someone with no knowledge of English that "us" and "ours" are really just variations of the basic pronoun "we"...

Then there is the problem that there can be masculine and feminine forms of the same verb -- and they sometimes look and sound quite different...

But trust me (?! ), when an on-line machine translator is going from a Slavonic language like Russian, Ukrainian, Czech, Polish etc into English, there are going to be all sorts of errors. If we're not very familiar with that language or similar ones in its family, then making assumptions based on what we read in a machine-based English translation is fraught with danger.

It's also important when reading a machine-based translation to follow the context closely. In the "disstressindroma" case, some perhaps overlooked the significance of "viral", which functioned as an adjective to the following phrase/word and gave us the context for dealing with it.

(End of lesson!)

There was another machine-translated text that mentioned "100% deaths" in relation to patients who were placed on ventilators. After studying the text and trying to sort out the subject-object relationships and the faulty prepositions and errors of tense etc etc, my take on was that all of the patients who were critically ill and had been placed on ventilators still died in spite of those efforts to keep them alive. (However, I could be wrong on this!)

Frankly if they're on respirators (meaning "artificial life support") as a result of infection, they are in a very bad way indeed. The overall number of hospitalized patients is so high that doctors would reserve this limited amount of ICU/life support equipment only for patients who are gravely ill. I feel that the report was in no way meant to suggest a general 100% mortality rate among seriously infected patients. Sadly, some people may now be thinking that it did mean that.

Best regards,

Mike

Originally posted by Falco_tinnunculus
I'm sorry, this is little Off Topic, but someone mentioned vaccine and unborn children that have died. Is there more information about it, or are they just rumors? I have heard same thing happening here in Finland, also babies have been born pretty fast right after the vaccine and some mothers have had intense contractions afterwards. Of course there's nothing about it in the news.

Hope that there is nothing in it, just a coincidence. I have many pregnant friends here, and many will take or have already taken the vaccine.

I have read about this.It was September.There are conflicting reports that it was actually a Measles Vaccine that caused childs death.I will try and find story.

meanwhile there are quite a few horror stories here;

organichealthadviser.com...

[edit on 13-11-2009 by martin3030]

In the past few days I have noticed press reports,in particular the Kiev Post,have been updating news announced elsewhere,but putting side notes at the end-which draw attention to discrepencies.
here is one example from Today;




Ten swine flu cases confirmed in Lviv region, eight die
Today at 14:30 | Interfax-Ukraine
Lviv, November 13 (Interfax-Ukraine) – Ten cases of the A/H1N1 flu virus have been confirmed in Lviv region, according to Roman Pavliv, the region's chief sanitary doctor.

"The A/H1N1 flu has been laboratory-confirmed in ten people. Two of them have already recovered, while the others died," he said at a meeting of the collegium of Lviv Regional State Administration on Nov. 13.

Pavliv said that the samples of around 90 other patients had been sent to Kyiv for testing.

We remind that, according to the the press service of Lviv Regional State Administration statement revealed on Nov. 12, flu and acute respiratory infections in Lviv region caused death of 85 people.

Originally posted by BLUESHADOW747
reply to post by paxnatus

 

Dam good report pax that really does tell the story i for one have been saying there is a lot more to this than the average topics here lately this is a creation- a true bio- weapon

Mod Edit: All Caps – Please Review This Link.

[edit on 11/13/2009 by semperfortis]

There is a good reason that this is a record thread, because there is a lot more to it than our eyes and ears can see and hear. We may never know what is or has happened there, but we can try to get to the truth(maybe before it kills us).

reply to post by apacheman
You don't believe that they can weaponize influenza virus? I just wouldn't be too hasty to say 'impossible'. I believe that black budget spending could come up with a moisture-proof polymer barrier that breaks down when it comes into contact with a mucous membrane. I have no proof of course, just saying that it is a possibility.

Doctors learned why Ukrainians dying! MIGnews.com.ua

All victims of the virus in Bukovyna (22 people at the age of 20-40) died not from bilateral pneumonia, as was previously thought, but as a result of viral distress syndrome, i.e the total destruction of the lungs.

"During a bilateral pneumonia some morphological picture is observed. As of data of deaths, there is no such morphological picture. The virus, which causes death, is very aggressive, it does not strike the trachea, but immediately gets into the lungs and causes heavy swelling and solid hemorrhage. Mixed types of parainfluenza and influenza A/N1N1 lead to this state. This is a very toxic strain, which has not yet answered to the treatment of the Ministry of Health", - said Viktor Bachinsky.

An earlier report indicated the viruses registered in Bukovina, Oleksander Svitlychny were A/H3N2 (seasonal flu), A/H2N2 (Asian flu ), A/H1N1 (swine flu), a large group of influenza B, and parainfluenza viruses of three types,

Over the last 300 days, chances of death by swine flu are about equal to dying from leprosy, see chart below.

[edit on 13-11-2009 by Regenmacher]

Originally posted by nikiano

Originally posted by apacheman


/But darkly squealing about conspiracies contributes nothing to the debate about what it IS. Especially when those squealing just offer empty circular reasoning strung together from rants in blogs without any proof./

Um... this IS a conspiracy theory website. That is the main reason why this website exists.
With all due respect, if you want to discuss this topic (or any topic) without someone bringing conspiracy theories into the argument, you should go to another website, because this is a website DEVOTED to conspiracy theories. Most of us on here WANT to discuss conspiracy theory....if we didn't, we'd be on a regular discussion board. Plus, she has offered solid arguments for her theory....not circular reasoning.

I'm not saying I necessarily agree with her theory (God knows my theories aren't necessarily right, either! lol! ) but she has offered good arguments for it, and this is a conspiracy theory website.

All theories and arguments should be allowed to be posted on this website.

[edit on 13-11-2009 by nikiano]

Thank you. If you remove the speculation and unsubstantiated reporting, this thread would be twelve pages long. If people don't like it..... they can go to MSNBC!

reply to post by Regenmacher


That's interesting. The same source has the following article.
Shock! New types of influenza found in Ukraine. 85 cases of swine influenza

Besides swine influenza, AN3N2, AN2N2 and group B have been found in the territory of Ukraine. In particular, at present at least 8 different viruses are circulating in the territory of Bukovyna.

Perfect storm?