Number of victims to unknown virus growing! State of emergency to be imposed in Ukraine?

reply to post by ecoparity


hell, if the flu and combo i n the swine flu vaccine along with multiple entries from authorities such as the ex-prime haealth care minister from poland isn't a good start for you what is/ what do you you need , more melting lungs? c'mone you are behind something and exactly why?

reply to post by BLUESHADOW747


I do not advocate taking vaccines unless it comes down to which is riskier, pick your poison, the vaccine or the bug? I still haven't figured out the science behind the idea of a binary bioweapon of an engineered flu and an activating vaccine, every which way I look at it it seems a very sloppy way to try to accomplish, well, what exactly?

Don't get vaccinated, no skin off my nose either way. I don't care which way you go on it. Either way, there's a decent argument both for and against. So please don't put words in my mouth or assign me to a particular camp, you'll probably be wrong.

I'm just trying, like most of us here, to understand what is actually happening.

If you have real proof to offer, give it up and let us judge it. But please don't waste time with repetitive baseless allegations without proof.

Originally posted by apacheman
reply to post by seattletruth

 

Ok, who are "they"? Name names, please. Have you ever been around top-flight anythings? I have, and anyone skilled enough to be top of their profession usually have egos the size of ocean liners, getting them to agree to work on a weapon like flu and not talk about it is more incredible than the idea of weaponizing it in the first place. Getting them to forgo professional jealousy and not let the cat out of the bag is even more unlikely.

If they could figure out how to freeze the flu at a particular point and prevent it from mutating again, they would win the the Nobel prize several times over, as that would be the key to curing many other diseases.

The example of Hussein's use of VX against the Kurds is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. He gassed people far from his own troops, waited til the gas dissipated, then sent in troops. It's a special case that proves the rule. You don't use a weapon that will kill your own guys.

Please, show me the proof of your claims. Name a virologist who works on weaponizing flu, just one. Show me a paper that outlines the basic research that supports the idea. Anything, anything provable. I have an open mind, but not so open my brains are on the floor. All I ask is some verifiable proof.

I don't need proof of my claims. *I* stated it was a theory, and my OPINION. *YOU* are the one that bears the burden of proof, because you claim FACTS.

I don't need to name names. I just need to prove that it's theoretically possible, and I did. These geneticists CAN control what *seems* like a mutation, because they know what will make a virus have a competitive edge over the less virulent form.

Also, I never said they had to "freeze" the state of the virus.. NO, they just have to keep introducing viruses with an advantage over replicating or transmitting, as long as they do that, they control which virus will be the dominating world strain. Introduce higher mortality rates later, just like the 1918 virus, and nobody is the wiser.

Moreover, they have the capability to keep this virus alive in clouds, and have it rain down on people using super-absorbant polymers and cloud seeding. I dont have to prove it, I'm just saying its POSSIBLE.

Sorry if it hurts your feelings that it is POSSIBLE that this virus will be used as a multi-step bioweapon.

The military gives grants to research schools to develope what hey call "binary bioweapons" which involve 2 or more components added at different times, nothing is "too complicated" for them.

And, you say rich people never come to consensus on ANYTHING..

WRONG.. They all seem to come to MANY agreements regarding eugenics and depopulation. It's the 2 things they all can come to agreements on.

These are the same people that used small pox rubbed on blankets to give to the Native Americans as a bio-weapon. Yes, ON PURPOSE..

You don't think they would have refined their craft in hundreds of years?


Also, you must realize that many biologists are themselves eugenicists and believe in the environmental religion.. They would be willing to work undercover. If this plan WAS being done, do you think there would be ANY paper trail? Get real. Thats like shooting someone in the head and dumping them off a row boat in the ocean, but not tossing the gun.

These people are NOT stupid. If they ever came across as stupid, its on purpose, to make us underestimate them (like Bush)


[edit on 13-11-2009 by seattletruth]

reply to post by JJay55


right on! a lot of posters agree it seems this is and has been discussed for years, why are a few got their head in the sand?

Toll rises to 60 as 20 more reported dead from swine flu in Turkey

Twenty more people have died from swine flu in Turkey, bringing the death toll to 60, the Health Ministry reported on its Web site Friday. The ministry also announced that 202 people were hospitalized. Forty of those were in intensive care.

www.hurriyetdailynews.com...
20 people died in one day

I hesitated about the new h1n1 vaccine at first but after reading about the plight of the people in Ukraine&Turkey I decided to get vaccinated.

reply to post by apacheman


wow, sounds like you have resorted to copying ecoparity's same lines or? First of all I don't know what or who you feel owes you an explanation for anything? S econd of all if it is not clear after thousands of documents invoving nwo , the govt. the stakes who actually benefits from all this, you have clearly lost the good common sense to be able to judge the effectiveness of an arrow shot at you and in regards to proof? again, are they not links on here? are they not documented statements been presented? are other people crazy? and another thing "where is your proof of anything?

reply to post by Regenmacher


You have a nasty habit of topic derailment and with cherry-picking. I don't see how you can go around only posting news articles to contradict another ATS member when there are many news articles out there to contraidict the ones you cite.

Perhaps you rely on news articles too much for information. Until the day comes when CNN reports that the world is run by the Vatican, Queen of England, and Rothchilds I will not be persuaded by any one news source.

[edit on 11/13/2009 by nightmarehalo]

reply to post by lalande 21185


Wow, thanks for posting about Turkey, lalande. Where in the world are you, if you don't mind me asking?


TO EVERYONE ELSE: Can we keep this civil. If you want to dispute someone else's belief(s), do so. Don't make personal attacks on other posters. I've seen attacks against seattletruth, ecoparity and apacheman.
As a person who doesn't really know the truth of the flu or vaccine (I'm talking about myself), I appreciate everybody's efforts to shed some light on the subject.
So, no more personal attacks, please!

Originally posted by apacheman
reply to post by seattletruth

 

[The example of Hussein's use of VX against the Kurds is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. He gassed people far from his own troops, waited til the gas dissipated, then sent in troops. It's a special case that proves the rule. You don't use a weapon that will kill your own guys.]

The Iran/ Iraq war in the 1980's saw extensive use of VX and blistering agents. Naming names of bioweapon virologists might be somewhat akin to naming some of our current deep cover CIA agents, huh?

[edit on 13-11-2009 by butcherguy]

reply to post by seattletruth
I think maybe we may be at odds over nothing, to be honest. I made it clear in my post that in regards to reporting for epidemics, the data are collected not only from hospitals but also from doctors in non-hospital settings. I said:

In an epidemic such as this one, the hospitals receive an instruction from their regional health office (via the Ministry of Health) to forward a summary of data for patients who have been identified by a specified set of codes. So all new patient treatments and admissions for those codes get forwarded either to a national collation center, or each region (oblast) receives them for hospitals in their region and then send them on to the national center.

In respect of reporting in such circumstances, doctors who have their own clinics (ie not in hospitals) follow basically the same procedures. They send the data on to their regional office, who then collate it and send it as a master report to the main center. There is likely to be some time lag here in collating the data from the doctors, but it gets there.

My post was to clarify the methods that hospitals and medical professionals use to report statistics, and show that it's not only patients who visit hospitals that get recorded as part of the stats. And they report them on the basis of what the treating doctor considers to be the diagnosis. Many patients will be diagnosed with ARI (which may or may not be flu) without any lab tests being done, so the number of infected is not reflected by the number tested.

If it were not for the fact that these reporting procedures are already established, I'd also find it very hard to believe that they could produce such statistics. In that case I might be led to make the same assumptions about deriving figures from prior data. However, they don't need to derive the figures. The system for compiling such reports has been around for decades. They had it under the Soviet Bloc system, just as we did. Since then things have been modernized a bit but the basic methods are still the same. I'm not saying that they're always accurate and I said in my prior post that there will be errors and delays. But that's not the same as saying they are making up the data for all but hospital visits. They really do not need to.

I live in an ex-Communist country, which still has not completely gotten rid of its Sovietsky Svaz cookie-cutter communist-style bureaucracy that was much the same all over this region. My wife worked in health care here for all her working life and for 25 years when she was in virology, she had to keep patient infection stats for the admin people to make their reports that they had to send in to the Ministry of Health. Bureaucracy rules. That's simply how they do it in this part of the world.

Look, if I ruffled any feathers I apologize. It wasn't my intention. Just telling it like it is.

Mike

reply to post by JustMike


You didn't ruffle any feathers, I was just disagreeing with you. But now I see your point a little better. Thanks for the insight.

If we never disagreed, we would never get anywhere...

reply to post by really

Thanks for your comments and the reminder about keeping things civil. This is an emotional subject and we have a range of opinions and beliefs. I'm guilty of upsetting people without even having any intentions of doing so.

You know, if we could all meet face to face and sit around and have a few drinks or coffee or whatever, it would be so much better. We have intelligent and thoughtful people here who just happen to have different perspectives. This is vitally important. As I said umpteen pages back, when I star a post it doesn't even mean that I agree with the poster, just that I think it's worth getting noticed by other members. Whether I agree with someone or not is not really the main issue. It's the discussion and exchange of ideas that matters most.

The main thing is for us to try and stay focused on the subject of this thread, which is basically the situation in Ukraine and logically its potential effects on surrounding regions. (Which can then lead elsewhere of course.) I'm trying to keep that as my focus, specially as I'm living in one of those surrounding regions.

EDIT to add:

reply to post by seattletruth

Just saw your post after I posted this new one. Thank you. It's an excellent example of what I mean.

Regards,

Mike

[edit on 13/11/09 by JustMike]

reply to post by lalande 21185

Thank you very much for posting that information. Seeing as Turkey is just across the Black Sea from Ukraine (with its major port of Odessa), it was only a matter of time before we started seeing some cases developing where you are.

It will be much appreciated if you can keep us informed of anything useful you may find out. Any information about patients' symptoms and the ages of patients is also important, so that we can compare it with what we have from Ukraine and other neighboring countries.

Wishing you and your family well,

Mike

Originally posted by nightmarehalo
reply to post by Regenmacher

 

You have a nasty habit of topic derailment and with cherry-picking.

Actually, you are the one who's been instigating derailments. I see no mention of the Ukraine in your recent flamer post to me also, which means it's both hypocritical and derailing. You should follow your own advice and stop trolling for negative attention too.

I don't see how you can go around only posting news articles to contradict another ATS member when there are many news articles out there to contraidict the ones you cite. Perhaps you rely on news articles too much for information.

I suggest you post those contradictory sources that refute mine and we shall all see the big picture. That's how it works here. I also use multitude of non-news sources, whereas anonymous noobs are not consider reliable sources of information.

Example:


WHO to report on Ukraine next week

Our epidemiological team has completed the data collection phase in the Lviv region and other western Ukrainian oblasts, and we are now analyzing the results. These will be published in our report next week, at the time where our mission will have complete its work here," stated Yukka Pukkile, head of the WHO mission, which is researching the current epidemic situation in Ukraine

Now you can refute it by citing sources.

Ok, who are "they"? Name names, please.

How about we not turn this into a soap opera. The thing to remember... Follow the money. If you want names, research the London Crown Corporation along with additional members of the Federal Reserve. This is a cartel, but it goes well beyond banking at this point. You and most everything else on this planet are one big IOU. Not to say we can't take our lives back, but this is how our economy is structured.

The most effective means of genocide/ de-population won't come in the form of bullets and battalions... Try nature all by herself. Nature is quite malleable. Delivery systems are a dime a dozen when you factor in the power this cartel wields. When you have the Secretary of Defense tied in with Tamiflu contracts it's obvious they've turned presidents into their puppets and governments into their strings.


To put things into further perspective.... If Tom Cruise is able to build a 10 million dollar self-sustaining basement to tuck himself away for 2 - 3 years, what would someone manage with 1000 times the resources? Think for a second. Would they be able to develop a vaccine within a matter 24 hours? Would they have enough food, water, medical supplies, and staff... Let's be modest and say 50 people? How about clone their own organs, or do some harvesting?

This is not a selective program by any means. The more the merrier. Bull's-eye is at least a billion people. Use that as your frame of reference. Now do you see the target? It's about the size of the moon.

So inform friends and family when you're able to, and follow your better instincts. Avoid arguments and seek out truth... Consider this a farewell unless someone manages to pique my interest.

Originally posted by BLUESHADOW747

 

man tell it like it is , some how -eco and others who feel this is a dust storm oh. pardon me, a lab accidentI cannot believe the way,in face of everything still protecting vaccines, and the excuses why this couldn,t be a bio-weapon good post!

I tend to stay in the middle and keep an open mind, as I review the pros and cons on both sides of the fence.

I do agree there's a lot of dubious propaganda and the hard sell for vaccines raises red flags in my head and I am not going to get vaccinated.

Then there's the CDC's let's stop counting H1N1 cases and lately a quadrupled death count seemingly overnight. I'd err on the side of caution, in light of all the disinfo coming from official sources.

I'll be curious to see what the WHO comes up with next week for the Ukraine They seem to be stalling, which may indicate they expect panic.



[edit on 13-11-2009 by Regenmacher]

reply to post by Americanist


very good info and very , very true; got any suggestions on dealing with this? as a small majority still thinks it is about stats and such even to the point of thinking there is no danger to vaccines. I see a lot of not accepting these facts in some posts.

reply to post by Regenmacher


I've been thinking about it and you're right. It was foolish of me to think that FEMA had as much control over dealing with H1N1 even if they weren't using it at the time.

If people like you weren't around there would be no paper trail to trace back an incident to the source responsible for dealing with something using a last-ditch effort.



[edit on 11/13/2009 by nightmarehalo]

Originally posted by BLUESHADOW747
reply to post by Americanist

 

very good info and very , very true; got any suggestions on dealing with this? as a small majority still thinks it is about stats and such even to the point of thinking there is no danger to vaccines. I see a lot of not accepting these facts in some posts.

What does "small majority" even mean? That's kind of oxymoronic.
By small majority do you mean 1 person? Even that one person is entitled to his own opinion, and to be fair, he doesn't think vaccines are harmless! He said over and over again it should be your personal choice... Which I agree with too. Just like it should be one's personal choice to blow their face off with a 12 gauge, or their own choice to shoot heroin. Who are we to tell another adult what to do? There's a word for that, its called FASCISM, and last time I checked its something we can all agree is wrong.

Seriously, are you going to come in here and give us an update on what all of are opinions are and root on anybody you agree with? Thats all I have seen you doing. It really doesn't help. We all know what we think, we don't need you to come and give us breaking updates and recaps of what every other poster thinks, which you continue to skew and misrepresent.. But HEY! Theres a post that you agree with, so BETTER MAKE A POST WITH ALL CAPS TO SHOW EVERYONE HOW IMPORTANT IT IS AND CHECK OUT THE WEBSITE I THINK ITS CALLED AMERICAN HOLOCOST ITS GREAT HEY SOMETHING SHINY

And like I've said many before, the numbers are the only information are GETTING, the closest we can get to "facts" right now, and they have lead us to a lot of conclusions. If the numbers and analysis thrown around in this thread is over your head, please leave. Do not come here every day trying to persuade us to talk about something else.

What do you expect us to say?? "Oh hey guys, he's RIGHT!! LETS turn off our analytical brains and just believe every internet rumor a webcammer on youtube says! OMG we're all gonna die tomorrow!".

Even if people were all dying around us, people with brains will still be analyzing the facts until the minute they turn off the internet.


[edit on 13-11-2009 by seattletruth]

Originally posted by seattletruth
What does "small majority" even mean?

What gets me is that some of these apologists claim to be Americans. WTF? Our schools are definatly failing us.