The Ancients Series | Part I: Sumerians

Originally posted by undo
reply to post by serbsta

 

book of gates
www.ancientegyptonline.co.uk...
the osirieon
www.phouka.com...

Fascinating!

First, from the Book of Gates link:

The water level is twenty or more feet higher today than it was in the New Kingdom, but it is assumed that the foundations were intended to be underwater when it was built as a reminder of the rise of the gods from the primordial sea.

This goes back to the connection between Osiris and Nimrod that you mentioned earlier. How closely is Osiris tied into Mesopotamian mythology? Because there seem's to be a lot physical associations with Osiris and water (abzu).

This causeway that was cleared fascinated me a lot:
www.phouka.com...

Why was Seti so inclined on connecting himself with Osiris?

We should leave this for another thread, i don't want to get too off-topic from the opening post.



reply to post by Devino


Yes, true... Well then i suppose you're theory does hold some weight. Maybe do a researched thead on the topic which will give the chance for other members to offer their viewpoints on it? Could offer for interesting discussion/debate.

reply to post by serbsta


Don't forget to read Devino's link, its not as hoakey as it sounds. Not for a thinker, that is.

If I recall orbital resonance is a whole number ratio. This kind of disturbance would change the rest of the solar system.

Originally posted by winston37
I hope I'm not to off topic with this, but I've been thinking recently about the inventions that we attribute to early civilizations and this post brings up the invention of the wheel within the first paragraph, so what better place to discuss it since I can't start my own thread.

I was driving through the country this past winter looking out into nature and since I had recently been reading about sacred geometry I began looking for shapes that naturally occur. Then I began to think of what pre-civilized men would have seen without the interference of modern construction.

So let's imagine; there are no lights; no buildings; only nature. What do you see? The only perfect shape that I could come up with is the circle. We see the sun during the day and the moon and stars at night.

Then I thought of what the first artists would have depicted. Certainly these perfect circles that exist in the sky would have been prime candidates. And then, of course, artists tend to depict the objects of their affections so how long do we think it would have taken, before cave men began to depict their lovers faces which include an ovular head and oval eyes.

So then how long before the first sculptor came along and rendered these heavenly circles, faces and eyes into what would have essentially been the first wheel? How long before they dropped it onto the ground and discovered that it rolled?

With this in mind, the wheel doesn't seem like such a miraculous invention to me...it seems like an obvious first step in the world of 3D art. What I find far more interesting are the inventions of the triangle and rectangle. Certainly, some trees are vaguely rectangular as are mountains but I can't find a perfect triangle anywhere in nature the way that I can find perfect circles. It seems an even further leap, to me, to find a rectangle in nature, let alone a perfect square (though human teeth come close).

So who invented the brick and where did the inspiration come from? And who first decided to stack those bricks into a pyramid? Are these inventions not far more astounding? In fact, I don't even regard the wheel as an invention of man anymore. Regardless of to whom/what you attribute the creation of the universe, that creator is the inventor of the wheel. Man merely depicted it in 3 dimensions and discovered that it rolled.

[edit on 29-10-2009 by winston37]

I think you should start a thread about the origin of the wheel.
First of all your concept of the circle is not a wheel.
A wheel usually incorporates an axle or center point to revolve around.
The first known wheels put to work are mostly attributed to Mesopotamia.
Although there is a Steppe ( chariot horse people, grave find) (Mongol/ Russian border?)
Grave offerings including the horses, gold jewelry, chariots and wheels.
There is speculation that the wheels in that burial tomb could be earlier than the Mesopotamian finds.
I am very interested in the development of the wheel as the American Aboriginals had not quite reached that point of human development process. Or was it just the lack of horses or other draw animals?
The creation concepts of the OP differ little from North American or Chineese aboriginals IMO.

reply to post by serbsta


primordial sea=nun=abzu=abyss=bottomless pit
another layer is: primordial sea=nun=tiamat+abzu=abyss=bottomless pit
it's the chaotic void (tiamat) from which the gods are born. also known as hathor.
it gets more interesting the longer you study it.

in fact, enki's e.abzu is also called the e.nun

i found a connection between enki and ra in the egyptian text, the legend of the destruction of mankind. in it, the text compares ra to having skin like gold, bones like silver and hair like lapis lazuli. enki's e.abzu was gold on the outside, silver on the inside and decorated with lapis lazuli. then it dawned on me that ra and ea were close etymologically and that perhaps ra was a deified building (the e.abzu, the e.nun).

www.love-egypt.com...



[edit on 2-11-2009 by undo]

Originally posted by Maslo


Yes, I agree that it looks like a battle of one side and the other side over humanitys destiny.
But when I read genesis, I cant stop thinking about god being the bad one. He forbid mankind from eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, then cast them out of eden etc.
Lucifer (carrier of light - it is knowledge!), on the other hand was trying to help us enlighten ourselves.

Any thoughts?

This is something that I have often considered. What if we have been worshipping the wrong God for all these years? Have you noticed some of the very questionable decisions that God has made in the Bible? Genocide, destruction of entire cities, plagues (biological warfare?). Even killing babies by the hundreds.

These are not the acts of a beneign, good God.

Anyone would be a fool who would follow a leader that preyed upon their selfishness,greed and ignorance about the physical reality they are living in,in order to promote his or her groups well being at the cost of the greater number of humans or the many.

All religos doctrines preach divine forgiveness therby DEMANDING EVENTUAL BLOODSHED,simply because religons defend the existance and growth of the few,or a minority.

This is what religous and other wars really are ,FIGHTS FOR PERSPECTIVE OR REALITY.Its all a sales job UNLESS IT INCLUDES EVERY HUMAN ON THE PLANET.A sales job my friends,competition for your vote,BUT DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT YOUR VOTE DOESNT DECIDE THE PATH OF YOUR GOVERNMENT OR COUNTRY,IT DECIDES THE PATH OF HUMANITY---SO IM AFRAID YOU ARE CASTING YOUR VOTE IN THE WRONG PLACE BECAUSE YOUR OWN GOVERNMENTS NEED TO SURVIVE SO THEY DONT PROMOTE OR ALLOW A GLOBAL VOTE OR PERSPECTIVE TO OCCUR.NEITHER DO RELIGONS BECAUSE THE CHURCH AND THE STATE ARE SYNONYMOUS WITH EACH OTHER .

They know that the day there is a forum for a global democracy or for every humans concerns for each other to be heard in THEY WILL BE CHARGED AND CONVICTED FOR CRIMES AGAINS HUMANITY.

Thats right,every human ,everywhere on the planet,their name recorded and their VOICES HEARD THROUGH THEIR VOTE,it really isnt so hard.

WHY DONT YOU ASK YOURSELF WHY IT ISNT HAPPENING???

And after you ask yourself that question,I guess I'll see you on the boards again because you will not find a truthfull perspective anywhere else,thats why we are all here.

reply to post by undo


Aha! That's pretty amazing to be honest. If someone posted a list of similarities between Sumerian deities and other wide Mesopotamian deities then it would sure make for interesting reading. I might do it but i have no time for it right now.

Ra and Ea were the MAIN God's of each culture were they not? Isn't that in itself the similarity that binds them more than anything?

reply to post by serbsta


I was thinking that my posts were getting way off topic and I apologize for that, it was my intention to connect to some earlier questions I had.

Are the ancient gods humans from Earth or from other planets?
Are the ancient gods supernatural beings, spirits or trans-dimensional creatures?
Are the ancient gods planets, moons and stars?
Or could they somehow be a combination of them all?

This is rather rhetorical as my point is to not assume that the gods were any one of those but consider that they might be all of them.

Some people may consider that the gods/pharaohs were people and then describe them doing impossible supernatural things. -contradiction

Others might think of the gods as supernatural beings that have nothing better to do then fuss over the mortal humans of Earth in the most bizarre ways proving their fallibility and imperfection. Besides, where are they now?-contradiction

I am among the few that see in these myths evidence that the gods were actually physical celestial objects, planets comets and stars that are both immortal and fallible. They interact with Earth and each other in seemingly bizarre and contradictory ways. -I haven't found this to be in contradiction but there are many things that do not add up.

To be clear I consider God (the uncreated creator) and Jesus to be different then my descriptions above. This goes down a completely different path.

From what I have learned I believe that all three of these points of view are incorrect on their own. I concede that I come from a astronomical perspective and I often read too much into things but this is only because I know we are missing the big picture. Our history in science has taught me one thing, academia is almost always wrong on every issue in a presumptuous and pompous manner. Brilliant insights of the truth have been fought against with ridicule and superstition for far too long.

Wow..what a great thread. I've been following this thread and it is really an awesome job you guys did here. I'm really looking forward to the next part-the Indians.

Edit: Now could anyone enlighten me that by 'The Indians' the OP meant the ancient civilization from India or the Indigenous peoples of the Americas? I'm asking this because I am a Brahmin (Wikipedia) so I could maybe provide some info about Hindu beliefs

[edit on 3-11-2009 by d4rk3n3rgy]

[edit on 3-11-2009 by d4rk3n3rgy]

reply to post by d4rk3n3rgy


It will indeed be about Hindu Indians, not Native American. I'm willing to listen, feel free to send me a U2U.

When is part II coming?? I really look forward to reading it!

reply to post by anarchist-rebel


Sorry, I've just been occupied with other things at the moment. I'm hoping to get it up within the next week to two.

Throughout the years as I have read about astronomy and the connections to ancient myths were unavoidable, I don't know what it all means. The study of astronomy is incomplete without an understanding of ancient myths and cultures so I fail to see how mythology, archaeology and anthropology can be complete without astronomy.

What are the connections to the planet Jupiter? Here is a list of all the different names for this planet with a little discription.

Jupiter
The king of the planets, largest of the gas giants. Great producer of lightning and storms, it also has the largest magnetic field, next to the Sun, and makes its own music.
-Sounds From Space

Jupiter's orbit is @11.86 Earth years, meaning every opposition (alignment) with Earth (@1yr 33.65 days) Jupiter will be in a different constellation. Sitting at the head of the 12 constellations.

Sumerian
An = sky, heaven.
ANU

sky-god, the god of heaven, lord of constellations, king of gods, spirits and demons, and dwelt in the highest heavenly regions. His attribute was the royal tiara, most times decorated with two pairs of bull horns.

*The symbolic meaning of the Tiara is still used today;

1. Tiara
   
2. Papal Tiara
   
3. Mitre
   
4. Amun's Crown
   
5. Osiris, Anubis and Horus
   

See any similarities?

The son of Apsu (the underworld ocean) and Tiamat (primeval chaos) [or early Earth].
By Nammu he was the father of, among others, Enki and Ningikuga. By Ki (Earth) he was the father of, among others, the Annuna gods. By Uras he was the father of Nin'insinna

I believe there is also a connection to Jupiter's lineage throughout these different myths.

Egyptian
Amun also spelled Amon, Amoun, Amen, -Does Amen mean [Add:correction] "So be it; truly" as it is translated from biblical text or is it honoring King Anu (Amen)?

Greek
Zeus

king of the gods, the ruler of Mount Olympus and the god of the sky and thunder. His symbols are the thunderbolt, eagle, bull, and oak.

There is a very interesting genealogy on Wiki, Greek Genealogy, where Gaia (Earth) is the mother, grandmother and great grandmother of almost all the planets and moons.

Zeus was the child of Cronus and Rhea...
according to the Iliad, he is the father of Aphrodite by Dione He is known for his erotic escapades. These resulted in many godly and heroic offspring, including Athena, Apollo and Artemis, Hermes, Persephone (by Demeter), Dionysus, Perseus, Heracles, Helen, Minos, and the Muses (by Mnemosyne); by Hera, he is usually said to have fathered Ares, Hebe and Hephaestus

Zeus was equivalent to the Roman god Jupiter and associated in the syncretic classical imagination (see interpretatio graeca) with various other deities, such as the Egyptian Ammon and the Etruscan Tinia. He (along with Dionysus) absorbed the role of the chief Phrygian god Sabazios in the syncretic deity known in Rome as Sabazius.

Roman
Jupiter

or Jove was the king of the gods, and the god of sky and thunder. Older forms of the deity's name in Rome were Djeus-pater (“day/sky-father”), then Diéspiter. Djeus is the etymological equivalent of Greece's Zeus and of the Teutonics' Ziu, gen. Ziewes...
He is the son of Saturn, with brothers Neptune and Pluto.

Hindu
Indra

is the King of the gods or Devas and Lord of Heaven, and also he is the God of War, Storms, and Rainfall

Norse
Thor

...god of thunder.
Thor had two sons, Magni and Modi, with Sif he had his daughter Thrud.

Keep in mind that most of these links are from Wiki. I don't know if all of this is nothing more than superstitious rhetoric but I find the connections very interesting.


[edit on 11/3/2009 by Devino]

Originally posted by Devino

What are the connections to the planet Jupiter? Here is a list of all the different names for this planet with a little discription.


Sumerian
An = sky, heaven.
ANU

sky-god, the god of heaven, lord of constellations, king of gods, spirits and demons, and dwelt in the highest heavenly regions. His attribute was the royal tiara, most times decorated with two pairs of bull horns.

...

The son of Apsu (the underworld ocean) and Tiamat (primeval chaos) [or early Earth].
By Nammu he was the father of, among others, Enki and Ningikuga. By Ki (Earth) he was the father of, among others, the Annuna gods. By Uras he was the father of Nin'insinna

I believe there is also a connection to Jupiter's lineage throughout these different myths.

[edit on 11/3/2009 by Devino]

Interesting. The planet Jupiter is indeed installed into the mythologies of many cultures. So according to what you're saying, if one is to look at these Sumerian myths (God's giving birth to other God's) in an astronomical sense, what could it mean? Collisions of planets? The forming other small planets from bigger planets? That's if its taken in a literal sense.

Originally posted by serbsta
Interesting. The planet Jupiter is indeed installed into the mythologies of many cultures. So according to what you're saying, if one is to look at these Sumerian myths (God's giving birth to other God's) in an astronomical sense, what could it mean? Collisions of planets? The forming other small planets from bigger planets? That's if its taken in a literal sense.

Yes, not only the Sumerian myths but all of the myths from ancient civilizations, that is the theory anyway. It's not an easy thing to do since these ancient myths have been translated and changed so much that they have almost lost their meaning. I believe that many of these stories are accounts of astronomical history recorded in a manner that seems to have worked pretty well considering how old they are. Not just the birth of planets but their actions, battles and outcomes.

Take the Geek myth for the birth of Zeus for example.

Cronus [Saturn] sired several children by Rhea...but swallowed them all as soon as they were born, since he had learned from Gaia [Earth] and Uranus that he was destined to be overcome by his own son as he had overthrown his own father [Uranus]...
But when Zeus was about to be born, Rhea sought Gaia to devise a plan to save him, so that Cronus would get his retribution for his acts against Uranus and his own children. Rhea gave birth to Zeus in Crete, handing Cronus a rock wrapped in swaddling clothes, which he promptly swallowed.

The Birth of Zeus

Kronos swallowing all five of his children that were born from Rhea? Does this sound like human behavior or maybe the behavior of planets?

Apparently when gods sire siblings it is common for them to be "swallowed" to make sure they don't over throw the King of the gods. Neptune and Uranus were over thrown and Saturn tried to avoid this with Jupiter but was tricked by swallowing a rock in a baby wrap.

Swallowing these siblings does not kill them.
Here is the story of Zeus and Metis.

In order to avoid a prophecy made when that change occurred, that any offspring of his union with Metis would be greater than he, Zeus swallowed Metis to prevent her from having offspring, but she already was pregnant with Athena. Metis gave birth to Athena and nurtured her inside Zeus until Athena burst forth from his forehead fully armed with weapons given by her mother.

The Birth of Athena

Athena is dressed fully in shinny armor and has a weapon from Zeus, lightning. The myth gets real interesting when the battles take place close to Earth with a few of the other gods.


[edit on 11/4/2009 by Devino]

The current theory for the formation of our solar system is due to the accretion of a collapsing stellar nebula into a spinning disk, however this really doesn't make sense but that is another topic.

Think of celestial bodies as spheres of liquid mass and the gravitational force between two bodies will pull some of this mass apart creating moons (no impact). The gravitational force of the larger planet can "swallow" these newly forming moons yet sometimes they are "spit out" by centrifugal forces. I think when a moon takes on an orbit of its own around the Sun it has then usurped Kingship over its father. According to myth this has happened to Neptune, Uranus and Saturn yet Jupiter remains King of the planets.

The facts are that Uranus is tilted by over 90* so its poles take turn facing the sun over its year. Venus is upside down and has been through some recent catastrophic changes. Mercury and Mars also have some odd formations and rotations. The correlating myths involving the inner planets are truly amazing and I believe that this is a record of our astronomical history. The main problem I see with this theory is how these gods communicated with humans and inspired innovation.

Originally posted by serbsta

Originally posted by problemsolvr
reply to post by undo

 

I also started thinking that the Qur'an/Kur'an (Their is a gutteral stop noted by the ', according to experts) is related to the KUR=Pyramid/ZigKURat theory. It is interesting to note that the later Arabics used to words that were used much in Sumerian times KUR AN KUR= Pyramid/Mountain/Zikurat of AN-u (AN/ANU/ANU-NA-KI)

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kur

This is pretty interesting.

IRAQ could be from the Arabic araqa which means something along the lines of 'well watered'. Although I think it is from the Sumerian Uruk (is this the Biblical Erech?)[which is from the Sumerian uru meaning 'city'].

Edit: However, what you were saying about Qur'an is very interesting. It's associations with Pyramids (KUR) etc. leave for a lot of speculation.

[edit on 2/11/2009 by serbsta]

Think that with all the tribes with mistranslations, how they tried to translate languages, often incorrectly by mishearing or misreading. It can become more difficult if you think that some tribes wrote from left to right, then some people wrote from right to left. So think of if you arrived upon a new civilization in the year 2000 B.C.E.. A traveler from the left to right reading tribe went to the right to left reading tribe (this tribe left long ago). So the traveler went to the tribe reading their writings differently. So he spawns a new civilization teaching, learning this style, all the while this language is coded differently than was intended.

Think of other pyramids that have the KUR linguistic lineage: Angkor Wat, built in the 12th century as the Capital city?(/ Anu-KUR the temple in Cambodia,. Wat/Vat = "Temple" in Khmer language--->Vat-ican City--->Vat-ican City/Vat-"Temple" Latin Vat-Icanus/Vat-Icarus/Vicar/Vicarious
Latin word Carus="valued"
Story of Icarus: en.wikisource.org...

The linguistics seem to be related; Angkor Wat was built in the 12th century, though the language traditions were from centuries earlier.


[edit on 4-11-2009 by problemsolvr]

[edit on 4-11-2009 by problemsolvr]

reply to post by problemsolvr


Yes, i see what you're saying but we don't need to go on an etymological manhunt to every corner of the Earth. We were talking about Iraq and its possible Sumerian origins and you mentioned something about the Qur'an which i found interesting, care to elaborate as i have no knowledge in this area.

Thanks for posting this. Something to note. In almost all Assyrian depictions of the Anunaki, they are shown carrying what I refer to as the magic lunch box. Why do gods need this box which they seem to carry everywhere?

[edit on 11-4-2009 by groingrinder]

Please provide a link to, or a pic of, any Assyrian Annunaki.

I believe you are looking at an Apkallu.

The "lunchbox" (LOL) is a container for anointing oil.

Harte