Eating Animals is Making us Sick

Originally posted by bvproductions
Uhm, H1N1 has NOTHING to do with the consumption of animals.
Sounds like someone is just havin' a blast, placing all the blame on those filthy, filthy meat eaters!
C'mon, people. Get your facts straight before making such claims.

www.time.com...
guanabee.com...
www.grist.org...
advocacy.britannica.com...
i can probably dig for another 5 minutes and get 10 more links if you want.
but i tihnk you get the picture.

Originally posted by Divinorumus
Yes, eating meat is making people unhealthy and sick, but who is to blame?

Ha ha ha, I hope this is all certainly true:
Warning: Eating Meat May Cause Sickness, Paralysis and Death

I agree, the meat INDUSTRY has it's flaws, however, I want some evidence, clinical evidence, that eating meat is causing the diseases of civilization, as most of the vegetarians and vegans in this thread have claimed. An artilce on beef and it's unsanitary nature doesn't work. I can find articles that contradict the one you've provided, all day long.

I'm all for this. In fact, I'm gonna get involved with helping to push this idea along!!!

M ake meat-eaters pay: Ethicist proposes radical tax, says they're killing themselves and the planet

That is an Opinion article that is scientifically inaccurate, and it provides no sources. It is a common misconception that many large studies have proven red meat to be unhealthy.

So, who is willing to make the sacrifice and is ready to mature and save the Earth from all that bad karma/sickness that this barbaric dietary practice results in?

People who are misinformed and misguided.

Odd isn't it? All those that proclaim the consumption of flesh and blood is necessary for a healthy humon, yet the facts prove otherwise. What's the point of talking about meat making people sick if you can't talk about the solution?

You still haven't provided anything of substance, much less facts, other than highly opinionated, biased articles. Have you any idea the effects of a high carbohydrate diet?

-Dev

reply to post by Jezus


No, incorrect. Murder implies killing with malice. There is no malice in what a carnivore does. It's simple survival.

reply to post by Divinorumus


Then by your logic nature is evil. My what a confusing stance that must be, to believe the very thing you depend upon for your survival is evil. Mankind is not above nature. But then again neither are alot of animals stupid. I recommend you actually do some research on the subject before spewing your blanket generalizations.

Originally posted by Watcher-In-The-Shadows
reply to post by Jezus

 

No, incorrect. Murder implies killing with malice. There is no malice in what a carnivore does. It's simple survival.

Well technically murder is an illegal killing, so it can't really be applied to animals...

However playing along, if a person kills another person without malice it isn't murder?

I'm sure their are plenty of insane murderers who never felt any malice...

You may consider this irrelevant but my point is that we shouldn't judge the action by those who do it, but by all those involved in the action.

You may not have any malice for the chickens stuffed full of chemicals, de-beaked, and kept in horrifying nightmarish conditions but I doubt that chickens care how you feel about it.

Also you mentioned survival...

We don't need to eat meat to survive or even be healthy...

And if we still REALLY want meat because it tastes so could, we could still have meat without the evil treatment of animals.

I am not against eating meat.

I am against treating a living creature as a commodity.

Right now animals are suffering for profits, gluttony, and convenience.


[edit on 4-11-2009 by Jezus]

Obviously I'm not going to be able to change your mind, just as it's unlikely you are going to get me to change my mind.

Funny though, why I don't have to defend my diet choice, but all the meat eaters sure seem to go to lengths to defend theirs. Bottom line is meat is unhealthy, and imprisoned meat is even worse .. and THAT makes me LAUGH now! Bon Appétit, ya'll!!!

Just make sure you don't get any of that swine slim on me, because the next humon that does I will brand a biological terrorist and deal with myself! Keep your unhealthy foul barbaric habits and viruses to yourselves, please, and there won't be any problem.

Ya know, this is why I'm against mandatory public health care participation, because I do not want to be paying for all this swine flu nonsense, nor your triple bypass heart surgery, nor any degenerative diseases caused by all those prions that pepper your dinner. Bottom line is it's all unhealthy, to yourselves, and us innocent vegans.

Originally posted by Divinorumus
Obviously I'm not going to be able to change your mind, just as it's unlikely you are going to get me to change my mind.

That's the difference between you and me. I am open to accept any scientific evidence that clearly shows that meat, or low-carb diets, are unhealthy. There are studies being released daily showing the efficacy of eating a meat/fish/eggs rich diet, as opposed to a carbohydrate rich diet. So, until you present some sort of evidence to the contrary--opinion articles don't count--then there is no reason for me to change my mind.

Bottom line is meat is unhealthy

Please either provide me with studies that support this claim, or provide me with the metabolic, biochemical processes that occur upon consuming meat products that are detrimental to one's health.

Just make sure you don't get any of that swine slim on me, because the next humon that does I will brand a biological terrorist and deal with myself!

Keep your unhealthy foul barbaric habits and viruses to yourselves, please, and there won't be any problem.

If you think swine flu is contracted through the consumption of "imprisoned meat," then you truly are misguided.

nor your triple bypass heart surgery, nor any degenerative diseases caused by all those prions that pepper your dinner.

Eating meat causes heart disease? LOL. There's hardly any evidence to support that notion. Stop spreading lies.

Prions? Please provide me with some sort of clinical evidence that supports the claim that prions, or malformed proteins, are causing ALL the problems you've described.

-Dev

reply to post by DevolutionEvolvd


here you go
www.webmd.com...
from webMD, a health website, nonbiased. Answer is "pretty clear", but you wont accept it.

en.wikipedia.org...
coems from prions. good luck arguing this, as its common knolwedge, but you might find some way to completely ignore what thousands of doctors and peoepl already know.

and swine flu comes form teh animals living in their poop, not from eating them. you only get everything else from eating them, this jsut spawns from their mere existence.

i can compile a list of foodborne illnesses if you would like, but since ive seen you post in every other thread on this topic im sure your well versed and fully capable of ignoring the facts already mentioned . you jsut may be teh most least informed person on this subject ive seen so far, grats.

First I will say that I love veggies. All of them (except for brussel sprouts and spinach, YUCK!). I eat a ton of them. I cannot go a meal without having some sort of delicious vegetable.

With that said I will now say this. I love a nice juicy delicious steak for dinner every now and again. I love herb roasted chickens and venison roasts. I love greasy hamburgers and pepperoni pizza.

I am not overweight. I am in good shape and the doctors give me a perfect bill of health. This could change I guess..

If meat is going to kill me, then I'll die happy!

Originally posted by STFUPPERCUTTER
reply to post by DevolutionEvolvd

 

here you go
www.webmd.com...
from webMD, a health website, nonbiased. Answer is "pretty clear", but you wont accept it.

Of course not. It's an ARTICLE. Maybe I wasn't clear; I want studies.

It's a health website, and it's supposed to be nonbiased, but the author of the article is far from a nutrition expert. She's a freelance journalist. I'll go over every point in the article.

A: For heart disease, the answer is pretty clear. Some red meats are high in saturated fat, which raises blood cholesterol. High levels of LDL cholesterol increase the risk of heart disease.

The answer IS clear. Red meat and saturated fats improve blood lipid profiles. The statement above is half true. Red meats, through the effects of saturated fats, tend to increase total cholesterol. However, it achieves this by increasing HDL(high density lipoprotein). You'll also be happy to know that red meat also contains oleic acid, the very same fat in olive oil that is touted as being heart healthy and actually lowers LDL.

Let me break it down. Half of the fat in red meat is saturated fat, the other half being monounsatured(oleic acid). The cool thing is, a good percentage of the saturated fat in red meat is converted to unsaturated fat once consumed. This something that your webmd article seems to forgoten.

The one thing that actually increases LDL and decreases HDL(not a good thing) is......carbohydrates, more specifically processed and refined, easily diegestible carboyhdrates.

Also, total cholesterol and LDL levels aren't great indicators of heart disease risk. HDL and Triglycerides are. A high carbohydrate diet will lower HDL and increase VLDL and triglycerides.

More over, probably the most important factor in heart disease, is the size of LDL particles. If they are large, fluffy LDL then they flow through the blood freely. If they are small, dense LDL then they stick between the cells the line the arterial wall, and oxidize, forming plaque and SIGNIFICANTLY contributing to atherosclerosis. Interstingly enough, high fat, low-carb diets cause LDL to become large and fluffy(good) while high carb, low-fat diets cause LDL to become small and dense(bad).

When it comes to cancer, the answer is not so clear. Many researchers say they do raise the risk, especially for colorectal cancer.

It's not so clear because the majority of studies that "suggest" red meat cause cancer are epidemiological, a study in which correlation, not causality, is identified. I can probably conduct a study linking obesity with increased telephone lines. That doesn't mean telephone lines cause obesity. In fact, every study in the artilce you've provided are simply observational/epidemiological studies.

These studies are great for producing hypotheses, and nothing more. And researchers that conduct these studies with a preconceived notion typically see what they want. This is why, as I'll show you, there are plenty of studies demonstrating a negative correlation between meat and cancer.

Meta-analysis of animal fat or animal protein intake and colorectal cancer

Conclusion: On the basis of the results of this quantitative assessment, the available epidemiologic evidence does not appear to support an independent association between animal fat intake or animal protein intake and colorectal cancer.

In case you aren't aware of what a meta analysis is, it combines the results of several studies that address a set of related research hypotheses. If you would like to know the differences between studies you can also check out my thread here: www.abovetopsecret.com...

en.wikipedia.org...
coems from prions. good luck arguing this, as its common knolwedge, but you might find some way to completely ignore what thousands of doctors and peoepl already know.

Sorry, I must have missed the memo. Are humans dying of MCD? And just so you're aware, according to prion researchers, prion diseases in humans are caused by inherited mutations, contaminations during medical procedures and, in very rare cases, from diet. Even still, are you saying that prions are causing the diseases of civilization? If so, please provide some evidence, as prions not very well understood and I would love for more research into this arena of misfolded proteins.

i can compile a list of foodborne illnesses if you would like, but since ive seen you post in every other thread on this topic im sure your well versed and fully capable of ignoring the facts already mentioned .

Why would you compile a list of foodborne illnesses? If your body is healthy, in most cases, it can protect itself from such infections. I could compile a list of complications/intolerances caused by carbohydrates. What's your point?

I'm not ignoring facts, I'm questioning where your "facts" are coming from and asking where the evidence is that supports them.

you jsut may be teh most least informed person on this subject ive seen so far, grats.

Typical. You're losing ground in this discussion, along with Rawhemp, and you both respond by attacking me, instead of providing some form of substance. See, you're so sure you're right aren't you?

Nutrition, in general, is a very misunderstood subject, even by the proffessionals that make a living giving nutritional/health advice.

How am I so uninformed? Is it because I don't agree with you and your ideology? Why are you SO sure you're right? To sit here and say that I'm the most uninformed person on this subject is laughable and ignorant. Is that all you can do?

-Dev

nice research !
im glad you can use google and stuff, im impressed.
now to address some of your logical fallacies.
nah who am i kidding, you wont listen to logic anyway so ill jsut accept that i have a better chance getting results by screaming at my wall.
you clearly love big juicy tender meats, of all shapes and sizes, amirite?
all teh nasty parasites contained in meat, the steroids they inject into the meat, the dyes they add to make it appear "bloody"(*since its grey), the antibiotics they are pumped full with to combat the diseases they aquire by living in feces and urine, the removal of life from creatures whos entire existence is confined to their cages, and the all the negative impacts it does have on your health that you rationalize away.
i think people like you are a dying breed though, as the planet will not support your carnivorous ways for much longer, were jsut simply running out of resources.
and once all is said and done, i suspect future generations will look upon people like you as barbaric and jsut another stpeeing stone in the human evolution. and will be as thouroughly disgusted as i am.
so keep on murdering livestock, you will reap what you sowe.
i guess your probably gonna call this a cop out, since i wont spend the next 2 hours looking up all teh "research papers" you took teh time to quote, or go read all teh "studies" done by "doctors" that you seem to like, than so be it.
it doesnt matter, as im not a vegetarian for health reasons, they are jsut an added bonus.
personally, im jsut not a killer, i dont lust for blood, i have no cravings to devour the flesh of another, i dont feel the need to assert my power over others, and i dont like the feeling of ending anothers entire existence. im jsut not liek you my friend.

2. If eating red meat does increase the risk of cancer, what’s the cause?

A: That’s not clear, but there are several areas that researchers are studying, including:

-Saturated fat, which has been linked to cancers of the colon and breast as well as to heart disease.
-Carcinogens formed when meat is cooked.
-Heme iron, the type of iron found in meat, may produce compounds that can damage cells, leading to cancer.

Lots of speculation here.

To address all three points: If saturated fat, cooked meat and iron in meat are causing cancers then why did many cultures, including the Prewesternized Inuit and Maasai, experienced almost no incidences of cancer while consuming an almost 100% fat/protein diet?

The article also mentions energy balance. A concept that just doesn't hold water. Caloric intake has little effect on fat loss, as fat metabolism is regulated by hormones, not caloric quantity.

I'm sorry, it's just ridiculous to for me, having spent the amount of time I've spent researching/practicing nutrition, to adhere to such BS. Coming from you, or coming from your articles. It's not your fault that you believe it, you're just uneducated, is all. I suggest you start with a little biochemistry, just the basics. Get it out of the way, that way when you read something that says "Dietary cholesterol increases serum cholesterol," you'll know to find another source of information.

-Dev

[edit on 5-11-2009 by DevolutionEvolvd]

reply to post by STFUPPERCUTTER


You go ahead and entertain yourself with believing my information came from google. No, that's come from years of research, unlike your google post(webmd).

If you're here to argue that meat makes us unhealthy, as that is the topic at hand, then, by all means, try your best. You will lose that debate.

If you want to argue that I'm a murderer for eating meat, then perhaps you shoudl take your argument elsewhere, as this is not the topic of debate.

As a quick note, again, if you're so worried about murdereing animals then why do you support agriculture? As it seems, agriculture is responsible for destroying WHOLE ecosystems. That includes animals.

That's not the topic at hand.

Your post is indeed a cop out. You'd rather attack me for consuming meat than discuss whether or not meat is healthy. That simply suggests it is YOU who is misguided and misinformed. Although I've sat here asking you to provide me with somethign of substance and cedibility, you've provided me with another article. And I've reluctantly dismissed it line by line.

If you want to provide your opinion, fine. But don't tout it as fact. I'm not attacking you for supporting agriculture and it's destructive ways, both on humans(diet) and animals(methods).

Are you done? Because it seems as though you've been backed into a corner and all you can do is attack me. Is that all you've got?

-Dev

i thought it was pretty clear, but i guess your a slow learner.
1. parasites - www.deltawaterfowl.org...
2. cancer - www.cancerproject.org...
3. heart disease - www.npr.org...
4. secondary exposure to antibiotics - www.babycenter.com...
5. secondary exposure to growth hormones - www.sustainabletable.org...
6. diabetes - www.bio-medicine.org...
7. bacterial infection - www.ext.colostate.edu...
8. viral infection - cat.inist.fr...

provided exapmles from each becasue i can tell your excited to discredit everything ive posted, this sohudl keep you busy for another few hours.
i guess that about covers the immediatly obvious things that pop up , im sure theres more if you would liek to continue.
have fun and good luck, i know you cant wait to discredit mulitple university, medical, and dietary experts.

reply to post by STFUPPERCUTTER


You falsely accuse me of GOOGLING for results, yet it's obvious you have done just that. And you're not reading my posts or my sources.

In any case, it's very simple to discredit what you've posted. BTW, you have no rebuttals to my comments?

You're embarrasing yourself, that is, if you haven't run everyone off from this thread.

Originally posted by STFUPPERCUTTER
i thought it was pretty clear, but i guess your a slow learner.
1. parasites - www.deltawaterfowl.org...

What is this? And why did you post it?

2. cancer - www.cancerproject.org...

At least you've provided me with an article that is referenced. Congratulations on your google search.

This is the first accusation in the article:

In the United States, researchers studied Seventh-day Adventists, a religious group that is remarkable because, although nearly all members avoid tobacco and alcohol and follow generally healthful lifestyles, about half of the Adventist population is vegetarian, while the other half consumes modest amounts of meat. This fact allowed scientists to separate the effects of eating meat from other factors. Overall, these studies showed significant reductions in cancer risk among those who avoided meat.

Oh good, more observational studies. Just so you know, Mormons, who also avoid tobacco, alcohol and caffeine, have a 22% lower incidence of cancer and a 35% lower incidence of colorectal cancer than the US national average. Oh......And they eat generous amounts of meat.

Here's the study: JL Lyon and others Cancer incidence in Mormons and non-Mormons in Utah, 1966-1970. New Eng J Med, 1976, 294:129.

bro did you jsut really use a study from 1966?

Speaking of cancer, and observational studies. Need I remind you of the Meta-analysis I provided a few posts back that concluded NO independent correlation between meat consumption and colorectal cancer?

The truth is, these types of studies DO NOT prove anything. Neither your linked articles(lol), nor my linked studies prove causality. PERIOD.

reply to post by STFUPPERCUTTER


Yes, I did.

And most of the infromation that you're basing your assumptions on are from about the same time period.

Had you any idea of how studies are conducted, you'd realize that date, especially concerning OBSERVATIONAL studies, has no releveance.

Originally posted by DevolutionEvolvd
Speaking of cancer, and observational studies. Need I remind you of the Meta-analysis I provided a few posts back that concluded NO independent correlation between meat consumption and colorectal cancer?

The truth is, these types of studies DO NOT prove anything. Neither your linked articles(lol), nor my linked studies prove causality. PERIOD.

they prove your getting mad.
i would suggest you cut back on teh red meat