Flight 188 No one was fighting; there was no argument. "I shouldn't talk to you anymore"

This gives a new spin on "No texting while driving (flying) rule"

The will probably be fired... or should be.

I'm curious as to why, after the ATC tried to contact them 13 times they didn't respond? Helloooo is anyone flying the airplane?

Originally posted by weedwhacker
reply to post by nonnez

 

Ah HAH!!!!

NOW it all makes sense...what date did this happen, again???

For those who don't know, there is a monthly chore that every flight crewmember must endure....for it defines the basis for the hell-on-earth you may endure in the following month....BIDDING!

Good point! That could give some credit then to the NTSB statement about the laptops. It still does not explain everything in the story at least to me yet, but I do think that it is a possibility.

Originally posted by Tifozi
reply to post by nonnez

 

Although it may scare you, things like this happen all the time in aviation. I know a pilot who was fired from the company, because his captain said "I'm going to close my eyes" (we can't sleep, so when someone is tired, usually they say things like this) and fell asleep for 10 or 15 minutes.

.

Your right! That does scare the hell out of me. I usually choose to travel by car or train because of that, at least this way your closer to the ground if something did happen.

reply to post by weedwhacker


oh dear, i go waaaaaayayyyyyyyyy back, so if you want to insult my terminology, etc, go ahead....Dont embarras yourself. i know lots have changed, and your knowledge of radio names, and equipment names, i'm sure you googled.

You are no pilot- but anyway, as i said, how far i go back doesnt mean a damn thing....


Anyway, they were not sleeping. They were not entertained on laptops either. Something is going to come out on this later on, and when it does, we will see if they were "sleeping" as you say ....

You want to know what s demeaning to women? People who say they got a hold of the stewardess and were banging her. THATS demoralizing.

Stop being such a pompus ass. YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO ARGUE THE POINT WITHOUT ALL THE INSULTS. THANK YOU.

Very wierd, but in the context of our times, this is a very rational explanation. Of course, I agree that it seems unfathomable that the pilots never heard any of the radio calls to them (I hear there were over a dozen from one single source).

Okay, lets all go back to our cell phones, blackberrys, Ipods, and lap tops.

Nothing happening here. Repeat.... Nothing happening here.

I spend more time in the air than I do on the ground it seems, and over the years I have seen it all. This little incident is nothing, but in these modern paranoid times they get blown up really fast. One can go to numerous boards and find folks attributing this event to whatever the subject matter of the specific board is.

So yes, nothing to see here I agree.

Please continue...

Ignore all facts, ignore all facts...

The government is always telling the truth. The government is always telling the truth...

I love the scepticism and the appropriate naming of "Ignore the Facts".

Yes. All of you out there. Ignore the facts!

"This is an automated broadcast of the emergency broadcasting network. In the event of a real emergency you will be provided directions to your nearest fallout shelter."

reply to post by bagari

Otherwise, maybe they were distracted by an invitation to the Mile High Club

The pilots need to avoid what the stewardess is feeding the passengers, my theory is its got to be the peanuts that made them sleepy.

I think they seen something upthere and had to follow the proper procedure to deal with the unidentified situation, hence them saying "WE HAD COMPANY ISSUES" to deal with.

Originally posted by azzllin
What mystifies me most of all, is not exactly what happened on board the Plane, but what happened everywhere else, 88 mins of no contact? and after 911, even on 911, the Air force had been alerted to a Plane not answering it's calls, and a lot earlier than 88 mins.

Being asleep or distracted is not the point not the whole point, why was there not a bigger response from the ground? from what I can find out, fighters where scrambled, but did not leave the ground? doesn't that sound strange to anyone else? also Planes fly along the same flight paths, how come no other aircraft where asked to look for them? I know at certain altitudes there is no need for most lights, but there has to be some.

This does sound to me, and call me nuts if you want to, but it sounds to me like somebody on the ground was aware of something going on, hence the delay in the scramble, and with them not leaving the ground if that is right, it sounds like it's cosmetic, like trying to prove their was intent to intercept, I cant for one second believe they left it so long before any action was taken.

Either after 8 years of new scripted security alert procedures, the system fell apart when called upon, or someone knew what was happening up there, especially with the first loss of contact being near Denver, the supposed new home for the Government agencies.

It annoys me to think we wont get to hear the true story of this, if this wasn't the fault of the pilots, they are sure going to take the blame for it, and even though nobody has come out directly and said it, a lot of us are thinking it, was their a part played here by ET?

There I said it, most likely not related at all, but without anything coming from any official source, even those investigating it would expect all kinds of speculation, weird or not, Paranormal, or just plain off the Planet conspiracy, by now the Voice recorders have been listened too, passengers interviewed, as well as the staff and Pilots, so why the silence? is Obama going to be forced into disclosure whether he likes it or not? perhaps time is up, and ET is demanding it for the sake of everyone, and they are showing those fighting against it, that they cant stop it.

Someone had to say it.

Star!!

Finally.....

Yeah, my mind went there as well as I listened to the story play out yesterday on CNN...

Not sure why people are afraid to admit that their minds wandered to ET/UFO...I'm not

No noise in the cockpit and not radio response sounds to me like what I hear happens when UFO is extremely close to planes...it scrambles with the radio signal and it throws off the compass.

reply to post by dgtempe


Oh dear oh dear oh dear...where do I start??

Firstly, apologies for not insulting you (even though you seemed to have a READ into my post as an "insult" somewhere ... For What It's Worth I was providing exposition for everyone's benefit, and wasn't singling you out --- no matter how it may have felt at the time. Thick skin, eh?

and your knowledge of radio names, and equipment names, i'm sure you googled.

I have no need to google, Dearie...in fact, I will challenge anyone to get the information I provide in my posts from the Goober Machine on the 'net...

You are no pilot-

Sounds like a line from a movie, or a punchline I once heard....

Anyway, they were not sleeping.

I wholeheartedly and unabashedly agree!

They were not entertained on laptops either.

I wholeheartedly and unabashedly disagree!
The entire scenario, now that they've "fessed up" rings clear and true as a bell....

I won't waste time repeating my diatribe here, you can read all about it a few posts up.

(Can't resist one little personal note, though...they will be HATED and despised by many of their peers for a long time to come. WHY? It's not because they broke the 'company rules' about non-essential tasks and distractions on the flight deck...ALL airlines have them, as boiler-plate rules, and just about all of us ignore them...you, DGTEMPE, did you ever see the guys quickly try to hide the newpaper or magazines when you came in?

Some don't care much, depends on the relationship with the FAs...and, without a photo it's your word against theirs...and plenty of FAs sit on their J/S and read, too...against 'company policy'. Ever see the guys doing their Jepps revisions?? See, I DO know more than you seem to believe...

Anyway, WHY will they be despised? Because, with all the media attention, they blew it for the rest of us..and I'm glad I'm out of the mess.

Folks, flying is BORING. From before you reach cruise, until just about top of descent, there ain't a whole heckuvalot to do...we're basically systems monitors. Making sure that what we 'programmed' is following our instructions....we're there in case something goes wrong. AND to provide the Human element of judgement that only the Human brain can produce, when needed).

... we will see if they were "sleeping" as you say ....

I've already recanted that notion in light of new revelations...

You want to know what s demeaning to women? People who say they got a hold of the stewardess and were banging her.

I wholeheardetly and unabashedly agree!
You'll be happy to know I never, ever said anything of the sort.

Originally posted by weedwhacker
Folks, flying is BORING. From before you reach cruise, until just about top of descent, there ain't a whole heckuvalot to do...we're basically systems monitors. Making sure that what we 'programmed' is following our instructions....we're there in case something goes wrong. AND to provide the Human element of judgement that only the Human brain can produce, when needed).

I don't fly myself, but I hear that flying modern aircraft is less interesting and stimulating than older models, because of the extensive automation. It does make sense for pilots to be allowed to do activities which keep them stimulated and engaged rather than "zoning out" looking at controls that show no change. I understand that some airlines do allow pilots to take "cat naps" to combat fatigue. I think it is equally necessary to ensure that pilots have the latitude to engage in other activities which keep the mind alert - so in that sense there is nothing inherently wrong in a pillot planning and submitting his bid for the next month while he is flying.

But that said, at least one member of the cockpit crew should be always engaged in operating the aircraft and listening to radio transmissions.

reply to post by bluestreak53


Applause! bluestreak...

Everything you said is spot on.

However....from my own personal experience, I find that both of these guys must have been total dweebs...

Not to blow my own horn here, but I don't care HOW involved I could get in a conversation, or even in a (gasp) magazine...of course one related to FLYING ... it just ain't that hard to glance over at the insturment panel every few minutes...I mean, it's more distracting to talk on a cell while driving than to monitor an autopilot!!!

As to the ATC...that one is really the worst! Like I told my friends, the audible clue that you've gone out of range of the guy/gal you were supposed to be talking to is when you hear the other airplanes...and NO ONE ELSE!! Ding! That should trigger a moment of awareness!

Plus, they missed eight ACARS messages....they missed the Flight Mode Annunciator changes as it displayed the data on the CRT screens...they completely, it seems, forgot about flying the airplane! And, that is cardinal sin Numero Uno.

They will suffer. Pay loss, possibly termination...with a grievance process, via Union contract rules, that will likely result in getting their jobs back. Along with a LOT of FAA-supervised re-training...I think the humiliation, and financial penalty is sufficient punishment.

Their families, and their long-term careers, should not suffer more than that....IMHO.

This happens all the time? I don't think so...

This is really strange in that the passengers didn't seem alarmed, and why didn't any of the flight attendants check in on them? I thought it was typical policy for them to check in on the pilots every 30 minutes or so, to see if they need anything, and make sure all is ok. Why after being an hour late, wouldn't they be pounding on the door? This doesn't make a lot of sense at all.

The other thing I find incredibly odd is that they were a mere 150 miles off course, but 90 minutes late.

If it's a mundane explanation, I could only guess they actually flew much further off course, realized it, turned around, and finally contacted the tower once they were close to landing again. Otherwise, I find this very baffling.

reply to post by fleabit

I thought it was typical policy for them to check in on the pilots every 30 minutes or so, to see if they need anything...

Ha! No, it isn't. Did you see my comment up a ways above? When we take-off we start a clock...on a very long International flight we go for a LONG time before they check in...I timed one at FOUR hours before they rang up to see if we wanted anything!

Now, I know how it works back there...they're busy serving, especially because it's the First Class galley that serves the cockpit, and F/C service is elaborate...but you can betcha they finished, then fed themselves first, before checking in on us!!! THEY have 'control' of the cabin (including food and beverage) and sometimes like to exercise that 'control' in subtle psychological mind games. (Oh...and if there are sympathetic FAs in the back? Well, they have their "turf"...really, you'd be amazed sometimes...)

It really depends on rapport you set...the tone you set when you first meet.

Why after being an hour late, wouldn't they be pounding on the door?

See, this is the problem with how media twists, or under-reports. By the time they overflew MSP they were still "on time". They went about another 150 miles....that's about 18 minutes or so, at those speeds.

The other thing I find incredibly odd is that they were a mere 150 miles off course, but 90 minutes late.

See above.

Originally posted by nonnez

snip! ... No one was fighting; there was no argument; there was no disharmony; no one was sleeping. We were just distracted."

Those sexy flight attendant sure can provide a great service.

reply to post by fleabit

This is really strange in that the passengers didn't seem alarmed, and why didn't any of the flight attendants check in on them?

Because a passenger doesn't know the state of the flight, doesn't know what is going on, and the flight attendants simply don't care sometimes.

When I travel on the back, as a passenger, I have no clue of what is going on sometimes. How the hell would a passenger feel anything strange? Using the same logic, the people who are afraid to fly and start to panic while in flight, know when a crash is about to happen.

This is no valid argument.

I thought it was typical policy for them to check in on the pilots every 30 minutes or so, to see if they need anything, and make sure all is ok. Why after being an hour late, wouldn't they be pounding on the door?

weedwhacker said everything that needs to be said about this. But in addition, for you to realize that it isn't that rare, I fly in Europe, and it's the same thing.

I don't even "trust" my "hungry status" to them anymore. I simply take my water and my sandwich with me.

If it's a mundane explanation, I could only guess they actually flew much further off course, realized it, turned around, and finally contacted the tower once they were close to landing again.

Flying a aircraft isn't the same as driving your car. You can't go everywhere like you please. You have protocols, and you are actually "driven" by the ATC.

If you ever see a route map, you see the various routes that we have to choose from, and even using those, you have to follow ATC instructions.

You don't know who is in the air, although they ask you to spot traffic for safety. They do know. They have to tell you where to go, so you don't crash with anyone, neither put yourself in front of an airplane who is already making an approach.

This is the case in Europe, and I bet that in the US is even worst with a lot more traffic.

Having that said, the problem is that they didn't realize it. That is what happened... They didn't notice their mistake, and end up in this situation.

This looks amazing to the general public, because 90% of the bad situations are covered to prevent the company from getting bad reputation.

The fact that information has come out that they where using Laptops? does not explain anything, did anyone on the ground know they where using Laptops? the question still stands, why was there no interception from the ground?

It is looking more and more like someone needs something to be kept quiet, I find it interesting also where contact was lost, there has been a lot of talk about Denver over the past couple of months, not to mention a lot of theories about the Airport itself.

The CNN conversation with the passenger, that's just weird, he did not notice anyone neither passenger or staff become concerned, delays of almost any kind that are going to be for a long period of time, the Pilot as far as I have noticed has always informed the passengers, even just to prevent the many questions that are going to head to the cockpit when people notice anything.

I'm not saying Pilots don't go and use laptops, I've heard of them doing a lot worse than that, some of it just way beyond belief, but I can say with all honesty, I am not going to believe that story, because it still does not account for the ground response from anybody, any other day within 20 mins, that Aircraft would have been surrounded by Fighters, or at the very least they would have been on their way.

It is sounding more and more like they did not know where the plane was, and there are very few explanations apart from a sudden stop on the ground that can explain that away, it still makes not a hint of any sense to me.

The Pilots are going to get canned for this, yet IMO the lack of ground response tells me someone knew what was happening, sorry but it does.

reply to post by ButterCookie


I have been wondering the same thing, I can tell through some messages I have had, some are thinking along the same lines, this does have the hallmarks of a possible abduction, or at the very least some kind of interference, I do not believe not one person on board was not concerned enough to ask if there was a problem, the reports we do have, nobody was aware of there being one, when has that ever happened before?

Even the guy on CNN sounded like he only looked at his watch, when contact had been re-established, why would that be? was everyone asleep, who did they want lol.

One thing I am sure of, we are not going to get much truth unless someone gets to the bottom of it, I don't think this is anything like the other incidents reported here or posted here.

I think the jets did not scramble after the alert because they did not know where the plane was.

Also I cant find anywhere that tells me they asked another Aircraft to see if they could see them, isn't that a normal procedure when contact is lost? the only report I have read is them asking for another Pilot to check on their frequency, in case they missed a frequency change.

www.businessinsider.com...

In case it hasn't been reported yet, the FAA has pulled their licenses.