Flight 188 No one was fighting; there was no argument. "I shouldn't talk to you anymore"

reply to post by ALLis0NE


It was more of a Question than a statement.

reply to post by bluestreak53


Here is one interview with a passenger:


CNN Link


[edit on 25-10-2009 by Julie Washington]

reply to post by Julie Washington


Thanks for that link. I found some other refs to passenger comments in the Seattle PI coverage. Seems wierd that the passengers were not more concerned. I guess they just assumed everything was okay because the plane was flying along smoothly and there was no communication from the captain.

It is a big leap to theorize this has anything to do with aliens/ET, but certainly I find it strange that jets did not take off - like the military knew something about this incident and therefore only put the fighters "on alert" (standby?? If they were scrambled, wouldn't they take off? Or did they just have the jets idling at the end of a runway?)

It is interesting that "uniformed officers" met the pilots and talked to the pilots before the passengers were allowed to depart the plane. Were the pilots warned not to talk to the passengers as they left? Is that the reason passengers were not allowed to depart the aircraft until the "uniformed officers" had talked to the pilots?


[edit on 25-10-2009 by bluestreak53]

Originally posted by gemineye
reply to post by nonnez

 

I was a flight attendant a few years ago, and we were taught in training to NEVER discuss anything with the media without direct consent of the airline, so I think that is probably why he refuses to talk. They really hammered that point into our heads and I'm sure the pilots are told the same thing in training. It's was even in our flight manuals.

That is good information as I had assumed. I still have to fall back on the co-pilots statements however, as you said yourself it does make the mind wander a bit. I guess time will tell and we should know with in a week or so, don't you think?

reply to post by nonnez


I hope we know soon, because I'm really curious about this one! When I was flying, I was constantly watching the time, just so I could everything in order before landing and if there had been no delay, I would have definitely noticed if we overshot the arrival time. Also, passengers asked ALL the time how much time we had left, so it seems really odd that no one spoke up... or maybe they did and we just haven't heard about it.

Of course, if the FA's and pilots don't like each other, sometimes they don't communicate so well, so that could have been a factor also, lol.

Originally posted by nonnez
I realize that the main original story was posted already, but I do not believe this new interview from my local news has been yet.

What was going on up there? Did they see something that had their attention. Is this just a cover up for them sleeping? Something seems strange here and I am not saying it was a UFO or the like, but is it possible that this is what he is eluding to?



This whole story is just plain weird.

[edit on 24-10-2009 by nonnez]

“I’ll tell you this, neither of us was asleep.”

Later he said that “I feel terrible. No one was fighting; there was no argument; there was no disharmony; no one was sleeping. We were just distracted."

If he doesn't want to say anything because it might be used against him, it's to late. He has admitted that both him and the pilot where distracted, not asleep not arguing but distracted. Something about this statement is telling. The only scenario that I see that would make this guy admit that it wasn't their fault but IT WAS THEIR FAULT in a sense was that something else beside what they can do was distracting them. Either they weren't in control of their plane AND RADIO (they didn't communicate that whole hour and fifteen minutes) or this guy just lied on national television. If he lied he has to be very very naive and I would like to be the person in that room when he had to explain why he was distracted for that time and overflew their destination AND didn't respond to hails.

A similar incident happened last year in Hawaii when the pilots fell asleep and overshot their intended destination by 30 miles.

www.cbsnews.com...

Otherwise, maybe they were distracted by an invitation to the Mile High Club

reply to post by bluestreak53


Let me quickly disabuse everyone of these two notions:

My best hypothesis to explain is:
- radio equipment failure, and
- plane was in autopilot and crew was unable to take plane out of autopilot.

Firstly...there are at least THREE VHF transceivers on modern passenger airliners, today. The odds of having all three transmitters fail simultaneously are astronomical.

Additionally, there is the Datalink capability of the ACARS (which, of course, normally is dedicated to Comm #3...so if the transmitter on Comm #3 is inop, then there goes your Datalink). Some (but not all, only ones equipped for extended over-water flight operations) will have TWO HF transceivers...I doubt the NW A320 did, however.

There is a transponder code to use for a radio failure. IF the pilots were faced with such a situation, they would use the transponder, and 'squawk' code 7600...usually first the emergency squawk for one minute, then to 7600 to notify ATC. THEN you simply follow the original flight plan and clearance as amended, if amended, prior to Comm failure. It is very well spelled out, in procedures.

Nowadays, of course...all of the preceding I just wrote is rather moot...because we have AIRPHONES (usually) onboard the airplanes!

Now, to ---

- plane was in autopilot and crew was unable to take plane out of autopilot.

Nope. Folks, THAT ain't gonna happen, not at all. NO WAY.

A/P needs electrical power to operate. NORMAL (meaning from Main bus distribution) power. Simply pulling a circuit breaker (or several) or, in a pinch, just turning off (de-powering) the Bus electrics, and the A/P will disconnect. Depending on the Electrical System design (varies by airplane, that's why we have to learn so much about each type of airplane we train on) sometimes simple switching of power sources may interrupt the A/P so that it disconnects. It depends on WHICH Bus it's powered from, and whether it gets interrupted or not.

BUT, turning it OFF by pilot action is easy as it can be.....






[edit on 26 October 2009 by weedwhacker]

My Theory ????? A pilot and co-pilot love affair went over scheduled.





brings new meaning to the word cockpit aye !!! aye comrade !!!

reply to post by weedwhacker


I find it funny that you have covered almost every possible situation, and yet, people are searching for every bit to make up something.

I would applause you if I could.

reply to post by weedwhacker


Good point there, however, I think you are premature in your conclusion that the pilots were asleep. You weren't there. You don't know. There could be another explanation.

Just because the incident could be explained by the possibility that the pilots were asleep, doesn't mean this is the only possible explanation.
If they were asleep, evidence suggest they were both sleeping for hours.
Hmmm. Could there be something in the cabin that made them pass out? I'm thinking something in the air or something they ate?

Of course, if the pilots were awake, they sure have some explaining to do.

reply to post by bluestreak53

Of course, if the pilots were awake, they sure have some explaining to do.

Actually, they will be in MORE trouble if found to have been sleeping!

Sloppiness and inattentiveness is likely a lesser offense, depending on how they "spin" their way through it. Alas for them, with this kind of media attention, it's going to be a LOT worse than if it had just been in-house (company infraction) or even IF ATC filed an FAA violation on them (rare). They may have to be made examples.

As I was telling a friend -- depending on time of day and how busy the sector you are in is, the radio will chatter a lot, or have LONG moments of silence. Especially late, late night/early morning. many times we'll call, say something like "You still there?" or "Radio check." just to see if A) the controller is still awake ( ) or, B) we missed the frequency hand-off for some reason. Because it can be 45 minutes, sometimes, between calls, when there is very little traffic in your vicinity.

Combine that with an intense conversation, and you could lose track of time...although, it does seem ODD that the discussion was THAT intense...sheesh, I always keep one eye on what the airplane is doing (on autopilot, remember?) just to make sure we're OK...NO conversation can be that engrossing! But, that's just me, I suppose.......

'Nother thing....The one guy does NOT live in MSP. (Most pilots commute to their 'base'.) Usually (since MSP is a crew base) once you hit the 'base', especially after a leg from SAN, either it's the end of your trip sequence, and you're off duty when you arrive...(in which case you're thinking about your flight home)...OR there may be one more short leg, to another layover...depends. ALSO, even if you don't live in the crewbase, sometimes you have to work the next day...Company doesn't provide lodging, you either have a "crashpad" (think 'Animal House') or you pay out of pocket for a hotel room. (The Wyndham was always my favorite...they have a welcome gift basket, if you sign up...)

Anyway, IF it was the end of your trip, usually you're anxious to be on time...if ya know what I mean...

Originally posted by weedwhacker
reply to post by bluestreak53

 

Of course, if the pilots were awake, they sure have some explaining to do.

Actually, they will be in MORE trouble if found to have been sleeping!
..
Anyway, IF it was the end of your trip, usually you're anxious to be on time...if ya know what I mean...

I wasn't meaning that they wouldn't be in big trouble if they were both snoozing the whole time - quite the opposite. Pilots do nap but obviously you can't have the guy piloting the craft fall alseep.

I only meant that if the pilots were asleep then obviously the aircraft was just overflying its destination on auto-pilot and they simply didn't hear the radio transmissions. So all is explainable (but certainly not excusable).

If they were awake, then thay have to explain how they didn't hear any of the radio transmissions and how they totally lost track of time (for at least 40 minutes since they should have begun their descent 20 minutes before arriving in Minneapolis).

Well the official word is out!!

he Northwest Pilots who overshot the Minneapolis airport by 150 miles on Sunday were distracted by using laptops in the cockpit, The Wall Street Journal reported. The pilots of Northwest Flight 188 told federal investigators that a bathroom break, chatting with a flight attendant in the cockpit and then taking out their laptops to discuss work schedules apparently created distractions that led to more than an hour of radio silence with air-traffic controllers, according to people familiar with the statements, the paper reported.

Report: Pilots Were Distracted by Using Laptops in Cockpit


The still brings me back to thinking why the official statement to the press when we first heard about this was that they were arguing and the co-pilot said that was horse pucky. Since the NTSB told us it was laptops that were the cause we must believe it because they are the government and they would n ot lie to us.

reply to post by nonnez


Ah HAH!!!!

NOW it all makes sense...what date did this happen, again???

For those who don't know, there is a monthly chore that every flight crewmember must endure....for it defines the basis for the hell-on-earth you may endure in the following month....BIDDING!

They say there is no such thing as alchemy...well, in that they are wrong, because they never saw how convoluted and fraught with peril the monthly bidding process can be...AND there is always a deadline.

IF you are "Number One" in your seniority within a sub-base, well...then it's much, much MUCH easier to choose, isn't it?

BUT...if you're middle-of-the-pack, or down in the cellar....Everyone above you gets first choice, and so it goes, and goes, and goes...you have to choose carefully, your FIRST choice...(the dream "line" for the month...you know you won't get it, but sometimes miracles happen...)...OH!! AND, next month is (drumroll) ThanksGiving!! Ah, more drama, if you can't get the proper days off...that EVERYONE ELSE wants too....

Or, like at my company, IF you have a vacation block that month...THEN the greedymonster on your shoulder whispers in your ear, you choose "lines" that hit your vacation week (or weeks) just right, so you get a bunch of what's called "soft pay"...credit hours, due to contract stipulations, that you don't actually have to work to get paid for. Ah, BLISS!!! when you can work that out....(Imagine getting paid for 110 hours flight pay, and actually only working for about 40....!!!)

For the greed monster, it is pure joy....

Olden days of your, it was all on paper...the "bid packets" were anxiously awaited, same time each month (around the 15th or 16th...). Then, you get your colored pens and start elieminating and prioritizing...hours and hours to choose, sometimes.

Now, of course, it's all online, and downloadable to desk- or lap-top.

AND there are programs you buy (or pay fee to use) to help you sort, using preference options...I know of some that have as many as fifty different parameters (personal preferences) to enter....

Usually, you have about six or seven days, until the bids "close"...so the company has time to run the bids, and post results...THEN you can finally plan for next month, based on the schedule you are awarded. (And plan ahead for any "sick" --cough, cough-- days you may be needing...)

Someone remembered that old 1980s movie about the future people taking folks from airplanes about to crash... it was called "Millenium" if memory servies.

If I can throw in my two centavos... I say "guinea pigs." I think it was some sort of exercise (but one not planned necessarily with the collusion of the pilots).

The fact that the military (well, the normal everyday guys at NORAD and in normal everyday planes) was not informed for almost an hour and a half after contact was lost makes me think that _someone_ was tracking them or trying to track them. Some sort of new high-tech servelance or weapons system was being tested. My brother in the USAF (retired) used to tell me that planes on exercises used to "bomb" cities all the time, targetting trains and stuff with their weapons (but not actually firing them of course). I think that this was something very simular. The black ops/secret development people probably had some new toy they wanted to try on a real warm-blooded target.

The pilots may have been in on it. If they suddenly decide to "retire" (strange how both pilots were older gentlemen...) and no charges are brought against them, I'd say they helped out testing something.

But that's all just my kneejerk reaction.

IRL, they either fell asleep or were doing a "Brokeback Airliner" and got carried away as to the time and listening for pages/messages/radiocalls. But that's BORING. :-)

reply to post by nonnez

The still brings me back to thinking why the official statement to the press when we first heard about this was that they were arguing and the co-pilot said that was horse pucky.

Many statements about aviation incidents are wrong when they first come out.

Most of the cases (crashes) can only be solved after years of investigation, or when something new comes up, like what happened with microbursts.

Adding to this the fact that many jornalists are simply ignorant in the matter of aviation, justs ruins the chance of you getting what really happened in the first days or so.

For example, when I hear about a crash or incident, I don't base anything in what I read on the news. I talk to my coleagues at work and we discuss things, or maybe inside aviation there is already a *reasonable* rumor about what went wrong.

Since the NTSB told us it was laptops that were the cause we must believe it because they are the government and they would n ot lie to us.

I can be wrong on this, but I think NTSB is a federal independent agency.

...but you got to look at this with a different point of view.

Although it may scare you, things like this happen all the time in aviation. I know a pilot who was fired from the company, because his captain said "I'm going to close my eyes" (we can't sleep, so when someone is tired, usually they say things like this) and fell asleep for 10 or 15 minutes.

When he "opened his eyes" he looked to the side and the co-pilot was missing... He was on the back chatting with the "air girls".

On another case, another captain went to the bathroom, and when he came back, the co-pilot was with his feet on the panels, playing PSP.

First of all, he was playing PSP. Secondly, he wasn't wearing the oxygen mask (which you have to do anytime you're alone in the cockpit).

This case is not "strange" if you account for things like this happening all over the world, through the years.

To the public, yes, it is shocking and weird. But for pilots, it's just like hearing about a truck driver that fell asleep at the wheel. It happens.

reply to post by yanqui9




Sorry to burst your conspiracy bubble, here....but did you read the thread???

(strange how both pilots were older gentlemen...)

uckk...choke....sputter....glurp!

Does that make ME an older gentleman too???

Heck, I can't even get a senior citizen's discount yet!!! Sheesh.

You DO know they recently raised the maximum retirement age, right? Pssst....you see, the longer you work, the MORE MONEY you get when you retire...

So, unless these guys do as you say, and "retire" (I got your hint there) they better hold out for at LEAST five or ten mill....to make it worth their while...years of lost income potential, and the accrual of their retirement pension....

Originally posted by weedwhacker
reply to post by yanqui9

 

Sorry to burst your conspiracy bubble, here....but did you read the thread???

(strange how both pilots were older gentlemen...)

uckk...choke....sputter....glurp!

Does that make ME an older gentleman too???

Heck, I can't even get a senior citizen's discount yet!!! Sheesh.

Sorry! Sorry! I just have really bad footinmouth disease! After all, aliens dont abuct old geezers. Who ever heard of an alien abducting some guy over fourty-five... Oh no, I did it again! (just j/k!)

reply to post by weedwhacker


HA!!! This cracks me up... it explains a hell of a whole lot, LOL! I actually miss bidding, for some odd reason. It was good to dream... back when I thought that being a line holder would be the best thing in the world that could possibly happen to me. Spent quite a bit of time in the damn cellar!

I think it's hilarious if this is actually what happened and given the time of the month, I'd say that's exactly what it was!