An attack on America by Europe

Originally posted by jam321
reply to post by seabhac-rua

 

Responding to criticism of your(U.S.A) country's conduct of an illegal war by pointing out the equal or worse equivalents in the history of other countries(European) is childish to the extreme.

What makes it illegal? The fact you don't agree.

Might be an unwise war, but it's legal.

International lawyers and anti-war campaigners reacted with astonishment yesterday after the influential Pentagon hawk Richard Perle conceded that the invasion of Iraq had been illegal. In a startling break with the official White House and Downing Street lines, Mr Perle told an audience in London: "I think in this case international law stood in the way of doing the right thing."

www.guardian.co.uk...

ONE of Britain’s most senior judges last night accused ministers of producing “half-baked” criminal justice reforms and then blaming judges for the failings of the system. Lord Steyn, a law lord, also launched a scathing attack on ministers over the Iraq war, accusing them of “scraping the bottom of the legal barrel” to justify their case.

www.timesonline.co.uk...

Legal advice given to Tony Blair prior to the invasion of Iraq was fundamentally "flawed", a former senior law lord said today. Lord Bingham, who stepped down in July, described the action by the UK and US as a "serious violation of international law".

www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk...


[edit on 20/10/2009 by MarrsAttax]

reply to post by seabhac-rua


No they didn’t lie.. Saddam was not supposed to had scuds but yet he fired them at Kuwait, during the initial invasion. There were other weapons he had that he should not have had... I explained a little bit more in dept earlier.

reply to post by Regenstorm

AClear Example of how ignorant you Americans are!!!

Why don't you give the kid a break? He/she already said their age was 17.

Furthermore the person didn't accuse. Even asked if somebody knew something about that.

Someone know anything about this?

[edit on 20-10-2009 by jam321]

reply to post by obilesk


Dude that wasn’t meant as an Attack, I was thanking you for contributing to the topic.. Maybe I worded it wrong but it wasn’t an attack...

reply to post by poedxsoldiervet


K. Sorry. Guess I'm just havin a bad week. I'm not normally so touchy. No harm.

...

I judge all things the same...on a person to person basis.

Ideals and group thinking is generally fruitless. I dont believe everyone in arkansas are inbred trailer dwellers, I dont believe everyone in Iran is a religious nutcase bent on seeing Israel burn, I dont see everyone in Europe as arrogant moaners, and I dont see everyone in America as some backwards flag waving idiot.

If a leader of a country says some dumb things, well, that speaks about that leader of the country, not the population...remember, we elected ____ and you didnt like what he said and how it made us look, therefore why would you assume the leaders of that other country are different in representing only one segment of the population.

Weird though...Eastern Europe = America for the most part..with some African and Asian tossed in for seasoning. I recommend everyone from both sides of the pond to travel to the other side and look around, you will find that besides some rather superficial things, its pretty much the same...be it culture, government nonsense, etc. Your right...neither are white hats or black hats and arguing about how one side is better than the other is like arguing if apples are red or green.

reply to post by poedxsoldiervet


These resolutions were based on the whole WMD debacle, utter bull#.

reply to post by MarrsAttax




Appreciate the info you provide. None of that makes it illegal.

BTW. whatever happened to the people who doctored the evidence that led us to war? Any of them in prison yet?


sorry, wrong quote

[edit on 20-10-2009 by jam321]

Originally posted by OrphenFire
Well said, Brother. I have a small amount of Cherokee in me, and when I was a child I traveled with my parents to Maggie Valley and saw a drama about the Trail of Tears.

I thought you might like to read this:

Samuel Cloud turned 9 years old on the Trail of Tears. Samuel's Memory is told by his great-great grandson, Michael Rutledge, in his paper Forgiveness in the Age of Forgetfulness. Michael, a citizen of the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma, is a law student at Arizona State University.

It is Spring. The leaves are on the trees. I am playing with my friends when white men in uniforms ride up to our home. My mother calls me. I can tell by her voice that something is wrong. Some of the men ride off. My mother tells me to gather my things, but the men don't allow us time to get anything. They enter our home and begin knocking over pottery and looking into everything. My mother and I are taken by several men to where their horses are and are held there at gun point. The men who rode off return with my father, Elijah. They have taken his rifle and he is walking toward us.

I can feel his anger and frustration. There is nothing he can do. From my mother I feel fear. I am filled with fear, too. What is going on? I was just playing, but now my family and my friends' families are gathered together and told to walk at the point of a bayonet.

We walk a long ways. My mother does not let me get far from her. My father is walking by the other men, talking in low, angry tones. The soldiers look weary, as though they'd rather be anywhere else but here.

They lead us to a stockade. They herd us into this pen like we are cattle. No one was given time to gather any possessions. The nights are still cold in the mountains and we do not have enough blankets to go around. My mother holds me at night to keep me warm. That is the only time I feel safe. I feel her pull me to her tightly. I feel her warm breath in my hair. I feel her softness as I fall asleep at night.

As the days pass, more and more of our people are herded into the stockade. I see other members of my clan. We children try to play, but the elders around us are anxious and we do not know what to think. I often sit and watch the others around me. I observe the guards. I try not to think about my hunger. I am cold.

Several months have passed and still we are in the stockades. My father looks tired. He talks with the other men, but no one seems to know what to do or what is going to happen. We hear that white men have moved into our homes and are farming our fields. What will happen to us? We are to march west to join the Western Cherokees. I don't want to leave these mountains.

My mother, my aunts and uncles take me aside one day. "Your father died last night," they tell me. My mother and my father's clan members are crying, but I do not understand what this means. I saw him yesterday. He was sick, but still alive. It doesn't seem real. Nothing seems real. I don't know what any of this means. It seems like yesterday, I was playing with my friends.

It is now Fall. It seems like forever since I was clean. The stockade is nothing but mud. In the morning it is stiff with frost. By mid-afternoon, it is soft and we are all covered in it. The soldiers suddenly tell us we are to follow them. We are led out of the stockade. The guards all have guns and are watching us closely. We walk. My mother keeps me close to her. I am allowed to walk with my uncle or an aunt, occasionally.

We walk across the frozen earth. Nothing seems right anymore. The cold seeps through my clothes. I wish I had my blanket. I remember last winter I had a blanket, when I was warm. I don't feel like I'll ever be warm again. I remember my father's smile. It seems like so long ago.

We walked for many days. I don't know how long it has been since we left our home, but the mountains are behind us. Each day, we start walking a little later. They bury the dead in shallow graves, because the ground is frozen. As we walk past white towns, the whites come out to watch us pass. No words are spoken to them. No words are said to us. Still, I wish they would stop staring. I wish it were them walking in this misery and I were watching them. It is because of them that we are walking. I don't understand why, but I know that much. They made us leave our homes. They made us walk to this new place we are heading in the middle of winter. I do not like these people. Still, they stare at me as I walk past.

We come to a big river, bigger than I have ever seen before. It is flowing with ice. The soldiers are not happy. We set up camp and wait. We are all cold and the snow and ice seem to hound us, claiming our people one by one. North is the color of blue, defeat and trouble. From there a chill wind blows for us as we wait by a frozen river. We wait to die.

My mother is coughing now. She looks worn. Her hands and face are burning hot. My aunts and uncles try to take care of me, so she can get better. I don't want to leave her alone. I just want to sit with her. I want her to stroke my hair, like she used to do. My aunts try to get me to sleep by them, but at night, I creep to her side. She coughs and it wracks her whole body. When she feels me by her side, she opens her blanket and lets me in. I nestle against her feverish body. I can make it another day, I know, because she is here.

When I went to sleep last night, my mother was hot and coughing worse than usual. When I woke up, she was cold. I tried to wake her up, but she lay there. The soft warmth she once was, she is no more. I kept touching her, as hot tears stream down my face. She couldn't leave me. She wouldn't leave me.

I hear myself call her name, softly, then louder. She does not answer. My aunt and uncle come over to me to see what is wrong. My aunt looks at my mother. My uncle pulls me from her. My aunt begins to wail. I will never forget that wail. I did not understand when my father died. My mother's death I do not understand, but I suddenly know that I am alone. My clan will take care of me, but I will be forever denied her warmth, the soft fingers in my hair, her gentle breath as we slept. I am alone. I want to cry. I want to scream in rage. I can do nothing.

We bury her in a shallow grave by the road. I will never forget that lonesome hill of stone that is her final bed, as it fades from my sight. I tread softly by my uncle, my hand in his. I walk with my head turned, watching that small hill as it fades from my sight. The soldiers make us continue walking. My uncle talks to me, trying to comfort me. I walk in loneliness.

I know what it is to hate. I hate those white soldiers who took us from our home. I hate the soldiers who make us keep walking through the snow and ice toward this new home that none of us ever wanted. I hate the people who killed my father and mother.

I hate the white people who lined the roads in their woolen clothes that kept them warm, watching us pass. None of those white people are here to say they are sorry that I am alone. None of them care about me or my people. All they ever saw was the color of our skin. All I see is the color of theirs and I hate them.

Pretty harsh words from a nine year old...

I was surprised because the OP is actually quite fair and honest.

I think Europeans do forget our past to a certain extent, but Americans also don't want to admit their dark past and present either. So we're both as bad really.

No point arguing over it.

reply to post by poedxsoldiervet


I find it completely astonishing that there still is people, intelligent people, who would say that Bush and Blair did NOT lead their countries into a war that is A) Unjust, B) Illegal, and C)Costly and wasteful.

They lied. This war is for profit and control, if you dont realise that simple truth you're up the creek without a paddle.

Since we are talking about European history dating back many centuries and a great many Americans are of European descent , then not only do they have their present transgressions to answer for , but they are also guilty of the villainy and evildoing of their European ancestors . This has to be so , as todays Europeans are apparently to blame for what their ancestors did to the native Indians in America . If guilt can be transferred to the descendants of those that committed the deeds centuries ago, then surely it would work both ways , wouldn't it ?

Therefore , in accumulation , American sum total of guilt is greater than that of the European.

Originally posted by Chovy
reply to post by poedxsoldiervet

 

Remember what happened to Europe in the last war? Millions dead and cities reduced to rubble. Europe doesnt stand the slightest chance against America.

Nice dude! So now we are one against the others as enemies.

That's what american policy is all about. Killing ppl.

Makes me very sad. But hey, this is you.

Originally posted by Drexl
Since we are talking about European history dating back many centuries and a great many Americans are of European descent , then not only do they have their present transgressions to answer for , but they are also guilty of the villainy and evildoing of their European ancestors . This has to be so , as todays Europeans are apparently to blame for what their ancestors did to the native Indians in America . If guilt can be transferred to the descendants of those that committed the deeds centuries ago, then surely it would work both ways , wouldn't it ?

Therefore , in accumulation , American sum total of guilt is greater than that of the European.

Hear, hear!

Europe is weak. This is why they formed a Union. Even still, they are weak.
They cannot agree among themselves and so in that Union of weakness, they seek out a common enemy.

they pick America. America is rich, fat and prosperous, even when it fails!

It disturbs some in Europe greatly that this is so.
The freedoms experienced here are greater than those afforded in many european countries.

America doesn't care about Europe. We buy stuff from Europe, but ultimately, we don't want to be like Europe, we don't want to act like Europe, we don't want to politic like Europe and we certainly don't war like Europe. lol

Europe can complain all they want!

WE DON'T CARE. Just serve us when we travel to your shabby little towns and dirty crime infested cities. :-p

reply to post by djusdjus


There speaks the voice of reason !

Now how could in 3000 years of history more bad stuff have happened than in 300? Good question!

reply to post by Ulala




Sorry couldn't help it!

I guess they want to take their military bases off Europe too since they "don't care for us anymore".
Fat chance eh?

[edit on 20-10-2009 by spacebot]

Originally posted by djusdjus

WE DON'T CARE. Just serve us when we travel to your shabby little towns and dirty crime infested cities. :-p

Well, I think no other country wants you, that's all. At least you learn a little bit of history, real history, older than 223 years.
Btw, let's travel to Iran. Let's see who's ass is gonna be kicked

Rather than arguing about who is wrong and who is wronger, I think it would help humanity in general, and Western cultures in particular, to stop this kind of divisive talk. Have we become so accustomed to hearing divisive talk through our leaders and the media, that this is the best we have to offer each other now?

I can do better than that. It stops with me. Right here, right now.

Despite (y)our mistakes, despite the horror in (y)our shared past,
I love you. All of you.