The American Dream has Become...

reply to post by projectvxn

Double post, sorry.

[edit on 18-10-2009 by Exemplar]

The TOPIC of this thread is the American Dream and this Member's perception of its demise...

If you can't handle his intentions then find a way other than vitriolic, snide digs at him to express your opinion.

Or...

Be post banned.

Springer...

Originally posted by projectvxn
reply to post by Exemplar

 

I know all too well. I wish you people would stop giving me advice on something I've already thought about for years. This isn't my first walk in the park kids, and I have my own reasons for doing what I'm doing. Secondly, Butler spent over 3 decades serving in the Marine corp knowing exactly what he was doing. I need no lectures.

Well aren't you defensive. I have no way of measuring what you do and do not know over the internet. I was just trying to give you some facts that you may or may not have known so that you could make an more-informed decision, had you not known. If you know the facts and still want to join up, wow. Best of luck. You will need it.

What a wonderful OP. Unfortunately for me, I came in late on this thread. After reading the OP I had hope to contribute to this thread. After reading several pages of it I became dismayed at over thinking i could post something worth while due to the thread becoming more of a bashing session on the OP. This thread had potential. Oh well, I will still try to contribute.

I have heard it said that immigrants are completely blind to the problems of the U.S. because all they can see is how much better our country is than the one they came from. That given the choice in the event of a civil war they would side against the natural born citizens in favor of the government. After all we have pressurized water and welfare. The OP is a perfect example of that myth. 2 of the most awake people I know are from Mexico. As I see it, the American Dream went out the window when my my parents generation (Baby boomers) took control. Things may have been on a decline before it. but this was the most visible change.

Originally posted by manxman2
dying defending the constitution you talked so elequently about in your first post is being a patriot.

killing a man defending his home on foriegn soil is murder.

no doubt you will find away to justify it to yourself at such an early age .. but murder it is for commercial and political gain and if you do it i hope you see their faces everytime you close your eyes for the rest of your days.
[edit on 18-10-2009 by manxman2]

Manx I completely disagree with almost everything you've said on this thread: I don't like your tactics, ideas, or tone. But, the above is an intelligent and wise statement that needs some serious thought.

Killing a man defending his home on foreign soil is murder ~ well put.

reply to post by calstorm


I may be reading this wrong, but are you saying I'm a blind government shill? Because if that's what you're saying then you need to go through my list of threads.

reply to post by notreallyalive


It is this kind of rationale that lead to people spitting on soldiers and calling them baby killers. You want accountability, start doing something. Most people here do not engage directly with their government, you'd rather armchair it with criticism than trying to understand it and change it.

I run in foreign policy circles. I have the ear of men and women in federal positions who MAKE POLICY. I give my opinion and I inform myself of what they are trying to do and why. If I disagree I let them know, and I offer alternatives. This isn't a democracy people. This is a Constitutional Republic which requires you to put up or shut up in terms of effort in trying to rally support for your cause. You all think that getting a protest together is effective...It's not. All that does is show the government that you're pissed. But if all you do is follow it up with more slogans and more protests you will NEVER GET ANYTHING DONE.

You wanna blame someone for the worlds ills, blame yourselves and your armchair activism and commercialized opposition. Blame the politicians you enable. Don't blame the soldier, as that soldier may very well be called upon to save your ass, and I would gladly do so, even as you curse my name in the process.

Spoiled whiny brats is what I'm seeing here. I'm sorry, I've been very decent and nice and I have taken my punches in this thread, and it's time for all of you to take yours.

Unfortunately, the American Dream is built on the blood of other people. We have our comforts and our toys at the cost of others starving and dying of easily prevented or treated diseases.

If all the world's resources were taken and distributed equally, everyone would have enough food to eat, some sort of a shelter to live in, enough water to drink, some medical care, and not a whole lot more beyond that. It would be enough for life - even a decent life - but not a luxurious life. There would be few comforts, few conveniences.

For everything that we have that is in excess of such a basic lifestyle, there must be someone who has even less than that. For each car, someone goes hungry, or some child suffers from malaria. For each fast food meal, another person doesn't get a meal at all. For each TV set, someone has to drink disease-ridden water.

Our comfortable lifestyle is a result of untold human suffering. In order to keep those suffering humans in line, we must rely increasingly on violence. We support corrupt regimes that keep their people in line so that we can continue our American Dream.

But it's a pipe dream, a drug-induced fantasy that cannot endure. The people we've been oppressing in order to maintain our comfortable lifestyle are awake and restless. They are no longer effectively held back, even under the harshest regimes. If we don't also wake up and start to cut back on our excesses, they will be taken from us. We cannot maintain our current abusive way of life. Balance will be restored, one way or the other.

It would be better for us to recognize this and move in that direction now. Change will happen, either by us, or to us.

reply to post by projectvxn


Yes, don't blame the soldiers who blindly follow orders. The nazi's were just soldiers following orders after all. How is it that you know what we do when we leave these forums? You also assume we are all doing nothing but do you have anything to back that up with or are you making an assumption? And when was the last time that the American military was used to protect Americans? I'll take my chances with the militia rather than some guy whose losing his mind from PTSD because he was forced to do unspeakable things, thanks. It's how we got to this point anyhow. By the way, according to the United States Coalition on Homelessness, veterans account for 23% of all homeless people in America. We sure do take care of our boys, don't we?

reply to post by chiron613


It doesn't have to be that way though. We can make this happen. Like I said in my last post, the only way we're ever going to effect change in this nation for the better is to understand(Actually understand) the Constitution, and to engage the government, not put them on a high pedestal. These people aren't elite, and change CAN happen...You just have to want it enough to actually do the leg work. When I was in highschool, rather than breaking the rules that I felt were unfair I went directly to the Dean with a clear and well laid out case as to why I felt the way I did, and I offered alternatives and details on implementing them and why they would work. I personally helped make highschool more fun and and safer for myself and 3000 or so other students at Cimarron Highschool in Las Vegas. It was back then that I realized that only by trying to understand how your perceived enemy operates can you effect change well enough for that enemy to become your ally. There is no reason the same tactic can't be applied to our Federal and State governments.

Originally posted by projectvxn
November of 2008 Americans, myself included, ate Hope for breakfast, lunch, and dinner, and for the first time in the 21 years I've been in the US I watched Americans really care about their future, and the future of the nation. Obama was charged as the caretaker of that future by many who laid their hopes of a more peaceful and prosperous nation at his feet.

You have characterized within your post, much of what I have felt over the years, and have captured my vision also. It warms my heart to read these words at the hand of another man.

The Sword of Right and Truth will always prevail, even when it seems there is no hope in sight.

Peace


[edit on 18-10-2009 by HIFIGUY]

I just went back and read some of what you wrote earlier, and this stood out like a sore thumb to me.

Originally posted by projectvxn
I'll pick my targets carefully. I don't do anything with hatred or thoughtlessness.

If you're in the military, YOU will not be picking any of your targets. You will do what you are told.

But I am no murderer. If a weapon is pointed at me, if they don't get me first, the poor man will die by my hand. That is war.

Ok, so you're not a murderer, you just kill people. I suppose it's only murder if you're not wearing a uniform?

Thank you for sharing that. I stopped reading after the opening post because I could'nt risk reading someone flaming your heartfelt sentiment. Thank you. Even a "foreigner" gets it. I appreciate you and your contribution to this country and what it can be. You are welcome in my foxhole anytime. I pray that your contribution helps move this nation. As long as people like yourself speak the truth we all have a chance - never stop!

[edit on 18-10-2009 by WWJFKD]

reply to post by Exemplar


War is a mutual understanding between warriors. It has been this way since the first sword was forged and so long as there is war on this planet, it will be like this.

Will there be crimes even within the confines of this understanding? YES and we should ALWAYS prosecute them. Will there always be governments and those "elite" willing to order illegal aggression on other nations? Only as long as you allow it, it has and always will be OUR responsibility.

[edit on 18-10-2009 by projectvxn]

Originally posted by RRokkyy
The original draft of the declaration of independence: People have the Inalienable right to the PURSUIT OF PROPERTY. It sounded so bad even back then that they had to white wash it, and change it to happiness.
[edit on 18-10-2009 by RRokkyy]

The pursuit of property specifically means YOUR LABOR. Life, Liberty, Labor, as in you work all day and you get to keep what you created. They changed it to the pursuit of happiness cause the village idiots didn't get it, and I see there is still some confusion as to what the LLL [777] golden rule actually means and is.

And as for the guy who said England was saved by US in two different world wars...seriously, read a book... You think the US just pumped out all those tanks and guns out of thin air? Where do you think the money that started and then financed the war all came from.

I realize many people are under the illusion that we created the international strength of this country by the sweat of our brow, but unfortunately a good chunk of the capital required came from over seas mainly because most of your ancestors slaughtered small and large business owners as well as the American intellect here. So the people that filled up this air balloon are about to let it go. Giveth unto Caesar what is Caesars, as in give credit where credit is due...i have some snake oil i want to sell people

The sh!t is pretty deep and even for this website you see the most retarded, fairytale, propagandized conclusions people draw cause well...they don't read history, and when they do they go to their local highschool (which we know has a really high standard of education and respect for real facts)...

if only i had the complacency and ignorance of the average American I could just...

ps. and that self sacrifice, died for my freedom bit...ah that never gets old, not sure whether to cry, laugh, or both... the ego wouldn't buy the truth if God himself handed it to it, death in vain is always a tragedy...

[edit on 18-10-2009 by injunfeller]

reply to post by projectvxn


Let me ask you this then. How is going to war in Afghanistan and Iraq going to help America recover? How much money do we spend on the department of defense(oh the irony) to bomb and rifle our way to democracy?
I'll give you my answer on it. It will not help. Even ignoring the billions of our tax dollars spent on illegal wars( congress never declared war, which is a violation of the constitution that you are going to be sworn to protect ). Do you think this will make America, the country you came to years ago, a safer place to live? Or do you think that this will create a lot of angry middle-easterners that will look up to people like Osama Bin Laden and strengthen militant cells that will eventually "blowback" on to us just like the USS Cole, Embassy bombings and September 11th?

Its a dirty world we live in. You think the US was free during the civil war. Was the civil war for freedom. No it was the shakedown of the south because they wouldent participate in the "american dream". After the civil war your country was different. Corporations gained a certain status during the war so the north could fight the south. That brings us to today. Were corporations are the law. It doesent matter anyways if you've been on the street the war started the day you stepped foot on the block. Every day people are out in cities and topwns NEAR you working to dystroy peoples lives. They have guns money and drugs just like the corporations. There called gangs. And now you can see were my post was going. It doesent matter weather or not you live in the US here in canada we have different problems but it all eminated from you yankees.

The culture of guns,gangs,drugs and sex in the hood is the same as in suburbia. Ive lived in both and currently live in the later.
I count my stars everyday that im still breathing. Being a soldier takes guts. Those guts get spilled all the time and members of the forces know this. I have the utmost respect for the forces and hopefully they all come safe. Alot of people I knew never goit a second chance. To redo all the things in their life that bothered them. Do it while you still can.

reply to post by Exemplar


That isn't actually the point now is it? How many times do I have to say this, I don't believe that these wars are fundamentally necessary. But so long as we are there we have a responsibility to finish our job. Find Osama, and come home, (Or finally admit he's actually dead and come home). I am not for nation building and do not support any effort to do so. I want us to come home, I really do. But in the mean time I want a clear mission with proper oversight, for the safety of our troops we have to think rationally about this, and refrain from the kind of superlatives and extremes that have been resorted to in this thread so far. It is NOT FAIR, nor is it accurate to call our troops murderers. That title belongs to those who perpetrated the lie that brought them to the battlefield.

And where does that responsibility lie? On YOU AND I, THE PEOPLE! If we take our media's word for it, our government's word for it, our political party's word for it, then we are not meeting our responsibility now are we? So you tell me, by extension, and using the same simplistic logic, all of us are murderers, as we failed in our responsibility to ask why we would need to go to war with a third world country, and demand an adequate answer. Instead the WHOLE DAMNED NATION watched the media and the leadership bumble through excuses for the abuse they were perpetrating, and they failed to catch on, choosing a "Let's wait and see" attitude in favor standing up in the face of Going to freakin' war. And too damned complacent to give a # about a life and death decision that would affect millions for decades to come, and potentially cause ruin to our economy and our way of life. Today we have that answer.

It's not as if history isn't rife with the warnings of men smarter than we. When the hell are we going to take responsibility instead of finding more things to blame. When do we stop making accusations and start looking in a damned mirror?

You think I'm a murderer, I in turn charge you just as guilty. Where the hell were you? What's your excuse, your justification?


[edit on 18-10-2009 by projectvxn]

[edit on 18-10-2009 by projectvxn]

[edit on 18-10-2009 by projectvxn]

reply to post by projectvxn


Thanks for another well thought out and heartfelt post. I've enjoyed reading many of your posts, which are always thought provoking. I've said before that I thank you and your brother for your service to our great country. I appreciate that you and your family came here for a better life and realize that it requires a committment on your part, to make it happen.

There are too many who come here, expecting to only receive and not have to contribute. Herein lies a problem, which I believe has contributed to the downturn of America and the "Dream". I have never understood why someone would immigrate to America and then proceed to try to change it to something entirely different. Something that more closely resembles what they fled. We don't need to "change" anything. We need to repair what has been broken, in the name of "change".

I do have to ask, though, why this statement, in your second post?

...a fascist police state where cops and criminals are indistinguishable.

With respect, isn't that kind of like the false generalizations being made by others here, toward you, relating to your and your brother's military service?

reply to post by projectvxn


This is a great discussion....adding my thoughts so succintly summed up by that Timothy Baldwin, Chuck Baldwin's son...2008 U.S. President hopefull endorsed by Ron Paul :

America has been duped into accepting a national government, not by interpolation, but by deceptive “construction.” If the federal government has the power to usurp its powers without a countermanding power checking its encroachments, where is the genius in our framers’ form of government? Was this form of government the form that best secured our happiness and freedom? And if our framers in fact bequeathed to us a federal system, whereby the states were co-equal with the federal government in sovereignty and power regarding their powers, then where comes the notion that we now have a national system, whereby the states are mere corporate branches of the federal government? Where were the constitutional debates on that subject? Where was the surrendering of sovereignty by the states, which can only be done through expressed and voluntary consent? Where was the right of the people to establish the form of government most likely to effect their safety and happiness? Do we just accept the fact that our form of government can change over time without express and legal action being over time without express and legal action being taken to effect that change? God forbid!

In 1776, the colonies rejected the European (nationalist) form of government. In the UNITED STATES, the people of the states ardently believed that their freedoms would be best protected if each of their agents (State and federal) possessed equal power to check the other against encroachments of power and freedom. This was the “more perfect union” of the US Constitution. How could the founders have suggested that the US Constitution was a “more perfect union” as a nationalist system, when the nationalist system was the very system they seceded from and rejected? That is nonsense!

www.chuckbaldwinlive.com...

[edit on 18-10-2009 by burntheships]