A response to population crisis fanatics

reply to post by Ex_MislTech


Thanks.... hey defoe me!!!!!

Some great points you make, i'm trying to stay away from as much as possible and deal with existing tech.... because of the 'that can't be done" crowd

I think... if we are going to Terraform any OTHER planet we damn well better learn to do it here first, i'm 100%with everything you are saying.

My list of doable now...

1: Water Pipeline from Alaska and Northern Canada to Mexico and wash out the desert and make it farm land...

Ditto from Siberia down to the Mid east and northern Africa... lots of jobs, income and food to be had, and to hell with desertification... I hate Rattle snakes

2: As above geothermal and Hydro power from Oceans and Earth... massive projects

3: Conversion to Vertical Farms mandatory for x percent of farm load 10 year goal to achieve 5x current food production.

4: Top to bottom building of several new, completely modern City's on the continent, experimental, eco friendly, wonders of the world... cut the military, use the Money and do like Dubai, end urban blight and housing prices fall everywhere

That's as a start

Originally posted by crimvelvet
The maintainance level for the population is a birth rate of 2.1%

In the 1990’s the UN’s World Health Organization launched a campaign to vaccinate millions of women in Nicaragua, Mexico and the Philippines between the ages of 15 and 45, allegedly against Tetanus, a sickness arising from such things as stepping on a rusty nail. The vaccine was not given to men or boys, despite the fact they are presumably equally liable to step on rusty nails as women.

Because of that curious anomaly, Comite Pro Vida de Mexico, a Roman Catholic lay organization became suspicious and had vaccine samples tested. The tests revealed that the Tetanus vaccine being spread by the WHO only to women of child-bearing age contained human Chorionic Gonadotrophin or hCG, a natural hormone which when combined with a tetanus toxoid carrier stimulated antibodies rendering a woman incapable of maintaining a pregnancy. None of the women vaccinated were told.

I guess David Rockefeller think he is GOD. I think it is time bring this traitor up on charges and toss his cronies in Washington

Unfortunately they will be in good health while many will die. No american has committed an assult on those evil persons. But even if you'll do that, nothing would change at all. Because the satanists are everywhere, generals... top politicians, you name it. All those worships the black side. so much musicians, actors, politicians, presidents, even prince william (UK), last but not least the pope who's not only giving the freemasons handshake but also the devil sing. And that is the pope, if you go deeper in that religion, you discover that christianity is in fact satanistic. Trouble accepting that ? Even with proof because it's in your face, they do not hide it. Remember cardinals doing the nazi great... And imaging all those people in a church worshipping the dark side without even knowing ! That's why I have no religion, that's made for mind-control.
I am spiritual, I have my experiences that has showing me the evidence of all the lies you find in any religion.

I hope for the sake of each one of you that you know what forgiveness means. Myself, I cannot hate anymore because I understand.

@mopusvindictus
Yes there's is enough space left on earth ass well the technology exist to make Africa a furtile land. All those donations for Africa... Band Aid, Life Aid,... was -just as WWF, in Europe 11.11.11 and so many "cancer organisations"- just fondraising for the black ops and Elite. Search and you'll find that almost everything of the money is going somewhere else, and yet Africa remains a disaster !

It's not for everybody to have a life that goes smooth. That some have that luck, I am glad for them. But do not generalize that. And not everybody wants to have children neither. They can still have a harmonious life. We're all different and have different wishes. It's not because that someone has trouble finding work, that he doesn't want to work. This is just one example. Peace out (i do not make the sign of peace because it's meaning has not been understood by the general public)

reply to post by ExperiencedGhost


Demanding that anyone Have children would of course be as awful as demanding that they don't.

A basic premise of this thread is that people simply shouldn't obey these mandates nor be encouraged to believe Materialism will benefit them more than family will.

Our population in the West is in decline, we do not actually want for resources nor do we lack the room and we certainly can't help the Third world by no having an economic base and populace capable of doing so.

We are being sold out, our culture, our history our lives by these philosophies.

reply to post by mopusvindictus


had the opportunity to meet a japanese foreign exchange student that had come to stay with our friends. as we were driving down the freeway, he was amazed to see how much undeveloped land there was for miles and miles and even around the outskirts of cities and towns. apparently, in japan, there's not a lot of room left, so they've taken to making artificial islands out of garbage.

funny thing is, he didn't see any of the really open spaces in the USA. he would've been flabbergasted at the thouands of miles of vacant and unused lands in places like tennessee, utah, wyoming, kentucky, minnesota, idaho, washington state, nevada (entire ghost towns in nevada some buildings still there, but no people), not to mention all the massive state parks and federally owned lands, etc. the northern michigan and the upper peninsula of michigan are very empty. there are towns and a couple of large cities but for the most part, it's really quite empty for hundreds and hundreds of miles in every direction. you can drive for hours and see nothing but birch trees and evergreens off to the horizon.

he took one memento home with him for his teacher's request of cultural artifacts, that i found disturbingly funny. he had watched a show on tv that just got his funny bone. beavis and butthead. i was like .....oh good grief, that is not ....oh how embarrassing.


[edit on 24-9-2009 by undo]

reply to post by undo


Japan is a point in case... Japan is relatively crowded, yet they are basically a happy people, I love the Japanese, creative interesting culture and society.

Ever see a Japanese Hotel room? At least a cheaper room, like sardines yet they do fine have a world leading economy, a great work ethic and are highly educated...

How many people could the Earth hold if we took an example from the Japanese?

Population of Japan 127 Million, about the size of China and much of the country is beautiful still, so average 75 Million per state in the USA since many States are as big or bigger but some smaller, 75 Million people per State to match the density of Japan Nation wide.

that's 3.75 Billion people the USA could hold in a functional society before things began to get out of hand...

Half that number for Farmland and wildlife preservation... not attempt to rely on food imports like Japan does...

That's still almost a Population of 2 Billion sustainable in the United States alone... and living like the Japanese, really wouldn't be all that bad...

Half that number again... simply to be American and have allot of space left around 900 Million

We are sitting on 1/3 that number just about, and in Population decline if immigration wasn't a factor.

So we could Triple the population and still be American if we didn't just GIVE half our food away

Increase it Ten fold if we were willing to be a bit more Japanese

and we didn't even factor in Canada to the North with only 37 Million people in a Nation larger than the USA including Alaska

reply to post by mopusvindictus


Just making a simple point...

We in the West are no where near, not even close to needing a eugenics program in place...

It's a bigger worry where there will be kids and workers to pay the SS of a very large generation of elderly that will die off in the next 20 years anyway.

reply to post by mopusvindictus


i'm not terribly fond of the way israel is running their social structure and population issues at the moment. i'm typically pro-everyone but there's always some social issue that really bugs me. communal living is one of them. i like the idea of having a really big house and sharing it with other family members, so that we'd only need one house versus several houses, but that's not where this is heading. this is heading to "packed in like sardines" and i don't like it, not one little bit, sam i am.

btw, mopus, if you live where i think you live, that has gotta be the most ideal location! i can't believe you found a cheap property anywhere in the area!

[edit on 24-9-2009 by undo]

reply to post by mopusvindictus

There is no problem in regards to the Rain forest, Not only could you keep the majority of the Rain Forest you could farm along the banks of the Amazon sporadically with vertical food towers and use Underground housing to allow the Rain forest to exist.

In fact, the reality is that underground houses are nice, allow you to live in harmony with nature are far more energy efficient than regular houses, provide greater safety in most disasters than a regular house including Earth Quake, Tornado and most definitely during War time, but they could be built in sections allowing any kind of Forest growth to naturally surround and grow over the much of your property.

The only thing that prevents the use of underground housing is some odd connection to Square housing unit's because "everyone" does it that way right now...

But as the population grows, we are going to have to rethink how we do things.

Great ideas! Undoubtedly there are solutions to living sustainably. The change of mindset depends on what is valued. Currently much value is placed on expediency and being cost effective. It's easier and more economical to raze a plot of land and place a structure above ground (for the most part). Here in the US most of the individual housing structures are frame and not even cinder block and poured concrete & rebar like in many other parts of the world. There was an Australian entrepreneur who was developing carbon sequestering cinder blocks.

Anyway, here's a link to a site aimed at solutions for the Rain Forests:

www.conservation.org...

reply to post by mopusvindictus


With respect, it seems to me that the more times you post in this thread the more befuddled your thinking and arguments become. Firstly YES we live in a universe of abundance and NOT one of scarcity. The problem is NOT that we haven't irrigated the sahara or desalinated seawater for drinking, or that we haven't yet built vertical farms or tapped wind, solar, or geothermal energy.

The problem is that thousands of years ago the devious, the greedy, the power crazed, and the pychopaths amongst our collective genetic heritage realised they could manipulate others. This eventually led to what we call 'The Monetary System'. This system is designed specifically to enslave the more cooperative, the more selfless, the more peaceful among us.

These oligarchs, theses elites, these psychopaths, these monsters DO NOT CARE about their fellow man. They care about power AND until they master life extension, the ability to pass on that powerful dynasty to their descendants as their only means of immortality..

Your words about the abundant universe are things many of us believe to be so, IF every one has equal access to resources. But until we ditch the monetary system that allows abundance to be coralled and protected and hidden away leaving only scarcity for the masses, the system we are under today will always reign supreme.

Your later posts about the big bad world of fear we live in seem at odds with your OP. It would seem you tell the world to get its act together and then state that you look after your family and you keep them safe. You are among the lucky ones, you have food and shelter. Because of The Monetary System, the unlucky may have absolutely NO chance of obtaining such survival necessities. You seem to be advocating individuality and selfishness, not collective altruism. In such a sytem you will always end up with a small percentage of people with no morals and a predatory, exploitary view of the rest of the species at the top pulling the strings.

Yes we can build a desalination plant, but NO we don't because of self interest and greed, and exploitation. Employing a monetary system on a local, regional, national, global, interplanetary, and intrasolar scale will ALWAYS produce a world of abundance for the few and scarcity for the the majority.

Ditch the monetary system, replace it with a resource or even a 'need' based system and there is an abundance of EVERYTHING needed for survival, health, and happiness for EVERYONE.

reply to post by sharps

for EVERYONE

no, actually there isn't "for everyone". some people are left out of the loop based on various things such as religious perspective (degree of fundamental belief) which is isolated to only 3 belief systems, regardless of whether belief is belief irrespective of what you call it. age also plays a role. need is reinterpreted based on things like.. how beneficial the individual may or may not be to the rest of society at that precise moment in time or any point in the (un)foreseeable future, which they then assume will amount to their version of reality that hasn't even happened yet. it takes no account of potential futures, but does a sort of pre-judgement on you like a pre-crime report



what else do you call it when you let someone die because you don't believe they have a future or you feel their addition to society isn't worth the space they inhabit? it's like capital punishment with a death sentence. what else do you call it when you deliberately hamper another individual from expressing themselves with their talents because you don't agree with the fact they read different books than you?

you don't want to get me started! you'll get an earful



[edit on 24-9-2009 by undo]

I've spent much of my life living in relatively rural areas of the northwestern United States and I can tell you there is tons of space.

You can feed a large population on a very small amount of land if you put your mind to it. Look at Japan!

I fully agree with mopusvindictus that the only place where birth control is needed is third world countries. Developed countries have opposite problem.

I also agree that bad resource utilisation is caused by human greed, but i dont have faith in those alternative economy systems (resource based etc). You have to force people to work, or they won't.

The bottom line is, we need to somehow achieve slow growth or stagnation. Quick growth or reduction leads to poverty and problems.

I've always thought "overpopulation" was simply an excuse for the elite to continue being greedy.

reply to post by undo


I'm not fond of communal anything myself...

But my population premise relies on a simple fact that we can readily adapt to new environments and not even have to go that route... I can see people being able to have land and a home on this continent including Canada until the pop starts reaching a billion at Minimum maybe 1.5 Billion or so.

I see a big change here now, I was kind of scared to do it at first... because people pack themselves into urban areas...

Israel would be an example... Jews flood the place so do others a tiny strip of land, in that case religion is a factor, but mostly it is because of Jobs everyone wants to get "rich"

My Method is use of the Internet, you can get a satellite hook from anywhere...

Most people simply still live in the Industrial era, but really that's not the way things are anymore, jobs... are getting rarer... the benefit is over.

reply to post by undo




Yeah, I did, I am right off the Forest by about 30 feet or so

Cheap is there, on the outside it looks very urmmm not impressive in terms of what I am in, but I'll say, I have 2x the space inside as I did in my Fancy condo across the street from McCain headquarters lol

If I told you what i actually pay your head would probably fall off knowing where I am and I'm fully Pimped out... heaters, 3 computers.. the whole deal.

It's an interesting environment, the University makes it so... at a glance you'd think one way, but when you meet people, it's many like minds... you'd think your in Hill billy heaven but walk in and say hi, your dealing with Professors and it looks like a Nasa substation in here lol

For next to nothing...

And i can bag an elk out my bedroom window if I needed to lol

2 miles from town, 2 miles from the rim

here lookie

image

you can friend me in media center if you like... I have lots more i'll be adding

I'm doing the Apocalypse in style!

reply to post by mopusvindictus


wait, is that arizona?
i may have misunderstood ya! lol

reply to post by sharps


The monetary system isn't that bad... People enslave themselves. When your mind is in the right place you can create what you want in life regardless of the system, there will always be a system to thwart...

The problem people have is they look at the system... I look for ways to thwart the system, so it's a n innate belief the system is out to screw me, I don't spend much time thinking about why the system is bad, I assume it is... and go around it, if I lived in Communist Russia I'd s still get what i want that way.

Selfishness wouldn't be the right word. I am sure things will be FINE

And even if they aren't how does it benefit me to not have children? I have no control over Africa, so I should have less kids so others can keep doing things as they are and basically go extinct in the process? Survival to a better day isn't selfish it's survival and when you help yourself you help the world...

I can not predict the future,....

My next child might... be a looser that saps the system OR might be the person that invents the warp drive... So I live in faith, not in any religion or in any philosophy but just plain ol Faith

We made it this far, I don't think there has been a civilization in history that hasn't hit a phase where the govt, the people and religious authorities weren't 100% certain that the end was nigh and we always figure it out...

A tenacious bunch of apes we are. So why should I believe this is the end, our population will reach x and there will be now here to go?

I look up a see a Billion worlds, it's that simple, we will DO or we will DIE, no matter what "controls" they put in place...They aren't going to be successful stopping population growth NEVER EVER GOING TO HAPPEN

There is then only one logical conclusion, Breed, expand, build, create ... create the numbers and society that can break free to the next NEW WORLD, don't hold back, give it your all

I can be 100% certain, that if my civilization stops reproducing and others don't me my family, my line my portion of the Human Race is OVER, not just OVER but intentional genocide of self. And that others will survive and believe and plod on and be living here where I am now and they will survive and I wont.

If you don't Terraform, if you don't Move, populate, expand the Human race and move on...then your done, you gave up, you quit, you live in a world of FEAR

And that's a complete cop out... it's failure, it's a waste of LIFE

"we will die if we don't kill ourselves"

It's the stupidest damn philosophy I have ever seen in all Human history it is contrary to Evolution, It is contrary to LIFE it is contrary to Self it is contrary to an ever expanding Universe...

It is a product of a weak Emo civilization that HATES Self

And I'd rather fight to my death than follow such a sick Nihilistic philosophy in fighting everyone who believes this crap i might still continue in Life through my actions, but by following this philosophy I will never have a chance...

Maybe we can colonize Mars. maybe we can't... But certainly it is DEFINITE that my offspring, my teachings what I am will NEVER set foot on that world if I fail to continue Natures process as things are...

If you can't see they are convincing you to SUICIDE yourself, your life... a history of generations and generations of Men and Women before you that struggled and fought and died so that you could be here right now God willing to do SOMETHING ANYTHING with your life... and your going to throw that away fro an I-pod and Lexus you deserve your fight, you have failed... you don't even believe all that struggle for eons before you got to be here had any value or purpose, this is a society that gives us kids who.... slash their wrist because mommy get's high.... So go that route if you believe this junk, don't reproduce tell your ancestors they were all animals, believe we are planet Cancer... it matters not to me... maybe those of you who believe this junk are just making way for a more optimistic better equipped branch of the species then... But me, I am going to HONOR my ancestors, honor my people Honor this Universe and BELIEVE and Struggle and Fight because I KNOW I wasn't put here in Vain with all my heart

reply to post by undo


Yup...

Up North by the Rim

I moved first week of July, it's normally expensive as hell around here, so you had that part correct... Everything is National Forest, limited ability to expand and intentional so prices are high.

reply to post by mopusvindictus


eek is beautiful.
what's closest city? any other houses in the area?