A response to population crisis fanatics

We have been born into an Abundant Universe

The only thing the human race and many of those posting here actually needs and that is to take control of is primitive territorial instincts that leave them in a constant state of resource FEAR.

Some of you are advocating KILLING or Controlling over Territory, This is a completely Animal and wholly IMAGINARY response that has been causing death since the first Hominid killed another hominid over a fruit tree when there were only 20 Hominids over 300 sq miles of territory

Sadly most of us haven't changed a bit since then. Perhaps a bit, now in this day it takes pseudo science spewed by an attractive talk show host to convince us someone Else's presence will eliminate all the bananas

I repeatedly go over the FACTS on this subject here at Ats

I go out my door...

There are 300 plus miles of national forest one way and another 300 miles the other way 95% uninhabited by human life, this is in the Continental USA

Alaska is 1/3 the size of the USA and is 98% Uninhabited

Canada is less than 5% inhabited and it the second largest country in the world

the largest Russia has a similar population density across more than half of it's land area

25% of the Continental United Sates the most Industrialized high consumption Nation on Earth, has never been surveyed except by air, Human beings have not set foot beyond a few unnamed explorers on much of our soil.

For all intents and purposes 2 continents, Greenland and Antarctica sit untapped under ice, ice which is all fresh water btw

We have only begun to learn how to build Islands

2/3rds of the Earth is covered by water, 2/3rds of it's life, it's untapped resources, it's space to build and live and we are just beginning to learn and have barely scratched the surface of this bulk of our planet.

Our power can be derived from Nuclear, Air, Hydro, Solar, aside from struggling with switching over the automotive industry, we will never run out of power, we already have cars that wont require the oil of today when we truely need them.

Vertical Farms can increase food production 10 fold

Africa has the capacity to exceed the food production of the United States

Aqua culture is virtually untapped

50% or more of food is lost to waste and inefficiency

NY State by itself produces enough Milk and Eggs for the entire United Sates

The United States supplies 1/3 of the worlds food and for all intents and purposes we have not changed farming methods to more productive means aside from shorting the amount of needed labor.

the Industrialized world is not expanding in population.

We have only in the last 10 years began to understand genetics in a meaningful way to produce inevitable "super foods"

Science has inevitably always overcome our population Fears, if you went to the Western Europe prior to the discovery of America and the Industrial era you would have heard the same grave talk about world ending population growth we do today, the cycle of obstacle and solution is ever present in Human History and History has shown from that first hominid fighting over fruit before the first farm until today these FEARS have always been un founded

With all the above stated and a Myriad of sciences untapped...

We now have to add to the fracas... Space

A universe laid out before us the nearest planet less than a 1 year journey away hardly any distinct difference from the first voyages to the New World time wise. Before that we have Asteroids worth One Trillion in Platinum and beyond that one day worlds made of Diamond, Resources, we have dug at best 2 miles, the time will come we can enter the core...

It has been 40 years since we first set foot on the Moon,we walk into over time now a brave new era of exploration at a time when the Earth is honestly just fine, with 3/4 of it's surface available, unlimited energy from the Sun and other means, new farming techniques and more that makes it possible to sustain 10 fold the worlds current population... COMFORTABLY before we reach any form of crisis

So decide

Now

If you are a Hominid ready to pick up a rock and bash another hominids head in for a banana.

Or

If your the hominid that chose instead to plant a seed and make more Banana trees...

Because I can make one prediction, those Hominids had children and continued their line and became us, and when the other Hominids, the ones that decided they needed to kill the others and keep the Bananas to themselves, though violent and controlling and numerous... when they faced the seed planters and tried to kill or take their babies, they found the more inventive of their ilk also had the creative potential to do allot more with a rock, like make an Axe or spear than the dumber less creative Hominids who chose FEAR and Control as their method of survival.

To Fear instead of Create... is to chose extinction of your line.

By self in simply choosing to not reproduce

Or by the hand of others who will reproduce and wish to protect those children, if you choose FEAR you are at your genetic end no matter how you look at it.

They tell me the world is in economic crisis, they tell me the environment is damaged beyond our control, they tell me that we are overpopulated. They tell me children are being born mutated.

Yet

Every day I learn and adapt... and it is beautiful outside today, my 3 children are thriving, I find means to provide for them, use new technology to earn money where factory workers are broke...

Every day, I improve my situation, my 3 children are fine and doing great and so am I and I intend to have more...

In 40 years I will still be here, surrounded by my many grandchildren, eating well living a great life

My 5 best friends have one child between them, likely, they will be old and alone and at the end of their genetic lines, like Hominids who refused to see that One Tree could become a 1000 Trees.

Me Fearless I will be a part of the potential and future of the Human Race

In this perhaps there is proof of Good and Evil a proverbial Devil behind the FEAR, Fear drives some of you to, abort your children, to enslave your fellow man, to literally kill yourselves to end your linage and perhaps it is here and on this topic that we see the purpose that whatever creator or universal math or nature or whatever you believe in has seen fit to allow for a Devil, for it drives some of us to fall from the gene pool via Fear. It is the Strengthening and advancing of what we are, the bettering of our species in the form of those who have the capacity to walk into the darkness unafraid knowing things will be okay just as they always have in.

Because there is no sense in no reproduction when children are born geniuses that solve problems and a Universe is laid out before us vast with countless worlds and like those first Hominids that simply could not see beyond One fruit tree, some of us simply can not see that there is an entire Universe shining on us from the stars above.

I do not offer the solution as to how we will get there only the faith in myself and others like me that we will.

I know long, long ago, some young Hominid looked at that tree and him and his children stared at it giving rise to thought and action and one day, probably right when the last fruit to feed that family was almost gone and almost surely by accident another tree popped up and one bright Hominid figured out how it happened

The rest as they say, was History

Some of Us have a Future History, Others do not

Don't let the big dumb territorial hominids tell you there isn't enough to eat, don't let them lord over the carcass swing their stick around starving you, making you not reproduce, killing your offspring.

That's all this is, there is not One single Truth in science to over population, global warming, energy or resource crisis, there has NEVER been since the beginning of time nor will there ever be.

there is nothing more than a scared Ape afraid to plant seeds in your way as always.

Some will spout numbers of homeless and poor

And to those I simply ask you to look and see if it is Men or resources that cause these dilemmas. If there are starving it is at the hands of their own people with intent, if they are homeless it is from lack of compassion from others around them.

And these situations have always been, it is not now nor ever been an issue of resource when we see suffering, simply Fear of survival, Humans acting like Animals and refusing to see the infinite capacity we really have to survive and flourish, Fear, an Animal instinct a desire to have territory because before we had hands and language we had no ability to Create and change our environment and this primitive instinct is what allows us to believe that the sky is falling when surely it is not.

Thank God for common sense!

I believe you are completely right on this - thank you for injecting some overdue sense with a big dollop of hope

I am tired of being the 'big bad' just because I am human - it really isn't all my fault and the earth isn't going to hell in a handcart because I have more than one child!

We are kept in a state of constant fear because thats how control is maintained and I also choose not to submit.

Go forth and multiply!

Forgot to add, starred and flagged cos you cheered me up.
2nd line

A very good thread mate, and yes, most of what you say is true.

But unfortunately, we don't (YET) live in the world you describe.

I wish we did.

But the reality of this planet is that we are destroying, killing and choking it to death.

Nothing would give me more joy than to live in harmony with each other and nature, wasting little, using our resources well, sharing with one another and building a planet of plenty.

But I am sorry, we are not at that idyllic and idealised point at the moment.

I am sorry, but being a realist does not make me any less inspired or human than you.

It just means I am willing to admit that there is some hard work to bring us into line, before we rebuild the world that you describe, and we all want.

Respectfully, kiwifoot



[edit on 22-9-2009 by kiwifoot]

The main problem is that many parents aren't teaching their children to have respect for the environment, other human beings and their planet in general. Procreation isn't the problem as much as being uneducated or uncaring about this Earth we exist on. If you don't appreciate the beauty of our planet, and as a species do much to damage it, expect the result in the long run to be disastrous. Or, what goes around comes around. (And more education about keeping our planet alive and prospering is sorely needed.)

Ah, you silly silly people. If you were right OP, if only you were right.I've outlined my stance in the other two threads, as well as mentioning the pro's and con's, but really, it doesn't matter.

You have no choice in the matter, your voice means nothing, and that is the way it is. If you want to go forth and be fruitful endlessly, then it is your own children you are condemning and I sincerely hope you can live with that.

You see, humans are very egotistical. The three threads we've had on this topic today show that plainly. Asking your opinion on something that huge? You have NO opinion that could matter on that subject. You cannot force 7 billion people to willingly undergo sterilization, any more than you could force them to have children.

Nature has built-in safeguards for species's that exceed their sustainability point. Sooner or later the tipping point will be broached, and we will go the way of the Maclears Rat, most likely through an unpreventable disease or through the removal of a key part of earths biosphere in our zest to keep expanding our numbers. Nature does not care if you want us to have babies, or not have babies, it does not give a damn how much you value choice, it will kill the human race if it damages the biosphere too much, which we will if you want to keep expanding.

Life for the sake of life is stupidity, it is animalistic and base. We argue that abolishing capital punishment is what separates us from the animals, but really, it makes us just as primitive in a different fashion. Nature will take its course whether you like it or not, no matter what you do, and the superflu's we are seeing as well as ongoing ecological decline are proof of that.

As for the rest of the universe? We can't even make a single flight to our own orbiting satellite, let alone colonize another planet. Allow humans to continue breeding exponentially, and we will never set foot on Mars let alone another green world.

But, as I said, there's nothing you can do about that. The pro-life crowd has had their way, and in the future they will not. The human race is going to be knocked down eventually, and you will have to sit there and watch, because your opinion on the matter means absolutely nothing to the forces of nature.





[edit on 22-9-2009 by D.E.M.]

One thing is certain. I know for a fact the earth can support billions more than the 800 million or whatever silly number that the guild stones suggest. I'd like to meet the bonehead that thought of that idea.

On another ntoe, I absolutely love how the OP waxes poetic on the beauty of the world he see's before him, and then goes on to say there's room enough for all. Apparently not realizing that endless population will result in said beautiful nature being plowed under for a barren plain of agriculture and housing subdivisions. Gotta love that wilderness when it's all chewed up for food and shelter for the unwashed masses. Yup, pretty awesome lack of biodiversity there.

Keep on the rose tinted glasses guys, keep on the rose tinted glasses.

The maintainance level for the population is a birth rate of 2.1%

The USA has a birth rate of 1.3% Link

France 1.3%
UK - 1.1%;
Canada - 1.0%;
Germany - 0.8%;
Switzerland - 0.9%;
Greece - 0.9%
Georgia - 1.0%;
China - 1.4%;
Paraguay - 2.8%;
Niger - 5.2%;
Cambodia - 2.5%;
Hong Kong - 0.7%

57% or 129 of the 224 countries are below the 2.1% benchmark. Link

Those above 2.1% are mostly in Africa.

The Rockefeller Foundation has funded vaccines implicated in sterilizing women.

Between 1963 and 1965 more than 400, 000 Colombian women were sterilized in a program funded by the Rockefeller Foundation. Dr. Louis Hellman, the Deputy Assistant Secretary for Population Affairs in the PHS, presented statistics confirming that 150,000 low income people were sterilized in the U.S. from federal grants. A Look at the Indian Health Service Policy of Sterilization, 1972-1976 by Charles R. England


In 1975 alone, some 25,000 Native American women were permanently sterilized--many after being coerced, misinformed, or threatened. One former IHS nurse reported the use of tubal ligation on "uncooperative" or "alcoholic" women into the 1990s." Broken Treaties, Empty Promises: An Introduction to Native American Women's Reproductive Health Issues by Jay Heavner
Website

The USDA has funded spermicidal GMO corn to sterilize men

Epicyte, in 2001 announced the development of genetically engineered corn which contained a spermicide which made the semen of men who ate it sterile. At the time Epicyte had a joint venture agreement to spread its technology with DuPont and Syngenta, two of the sponsors of the Svalbard Doomsday Seed Vault. Epicyte was since acquired by a North Carolina biotech company. Astonishing to learn was that Epicyte had developed its spermicidal GMO corn with research funds from the US Department of Agriculture, the same USDA which, despite worldwide opposition, continued to finance the development of Terminator technology, now held by Monsanto.

In the 1990’s the UN’s World Health Organization launched a campaign to vaccinate millions of women in Nicaragua, Mexico and the Philippines between the ages of 15 and 45, allegedly against Tetanus, a sickness arising from such things as stepping on a rusty nail. The vaccine was not given to men or boys, despite the fact they are presumably equally liable to step on rusty nails as women.

Because of that curious anomaly, Comite Pro Vida de Mexico, a Roman Catholic lay organization became suspicious and had vaccine samples tested. The tests revealed that the Tetanus vaccine being spread by the WHO only to women of child-bearing age contained human Chorionic Gonadotrophin or hCG, a natural hormone which when combined with a tetanus toxoid carrier stimulated antibodies rendering a woman incapable of maintaining a pregnancy. None of the women vaccinated were told.

It later came out that the Rockefeller Foundation along with the Rockefeller’s Population Council, the World Bank (home to CGIAR), and the United States’ National Institutes of Health had been involved in a 20-year-long project begun in 1972 to develop the concealed abortion vaccine with a tetanus carrier for WHO. In addition, the Government of Norway, the host to the Svalbard Doomsday Seed Vault, donated $41 million to develop the special abortive Tetanus vaccine...

I guess David Rockefeller think he is GOD. I think it is time bring this traitor up on charges and toss his cronies in Washington out of office.

reply to post by mopusvindictus


Someone in my neighborhood tried to move in to a house next door to mine.
I flung poo at him until he went away.

Seriously, S&F
Nice to see common sense reign.

There's too many of us on the planet. I know of a few countries we could get rid of. These people are useless and should also be thrown into the mix. Some of us still think we have bigger problems.

[edit on 10-04-08 by Beach Bum]

reply to post by ironorchid


Thank you, I just felt like I was becoming a broken record on threads proposing that we all stop having kids and the environment is dying and eeee gads...

When i was a kid it was the ice age, now it's warming then it was over population (ever see those stats in the 70's?) lol and behold the whole civilized world leveled out.... gee whiz

It's beautiful outside, the planet is fine, we always find ways to fix problems...

I want to put my foot in the Eugenics followers collective kiesters, they are all full of it, have no idea what on Earth they are talking about and march around like a bunch of Zombie with rectal thermometers taking the temp every where and freaking out when OMG the temperature is different than yesterday or the year before...

It's insanity already enjoy your lives, have kids, those starving kids in Africa had their food taken away by bad people...

For crying out load we can pump oil down a pipe across the world but not water?

It's all Bull, it's all nonsense and lies and greed

reply to post by kiwifoot


Realist how? whats choking and dying? Frogs with extra testes? it's a specific cause of pesticides, that's not because of over population it's because of Idiots...

There are Idiots in charge, it doesn't matter if there were 2 Billion or 5 Billion people, they greedy pigs would still use the same pesticides and kill the damn frogs...

We don't live in that world?

NO we don't and unless we fight to change that we never will...

We CAN live in that world, anytime we wish too

Drought in Africa... what? We can't hook up a Nuclear power plant to a massive desalinization system? What stops that? Greed? No one wants to pay for it?

We can do it, the issue is humanity not ability... these issues don't actually have to exist anymore anywhere

Numbers of people wont change the fact that the system does this with intent...

When there were 1 Billion people there were just as many suffering and dying by percentage... it was numbers then, it's not numbers now

It's Apathy... your real world is Apathy, you accept it like this, but not having kids wont make it better... less people are easier to control.



[edit on 22-9-2009 by mopusvindictus]

reply to post by crimvelvet


Oh Amen, they really want that beach front 100 acres for self don't they lol

The Eugenics supporters are mad men

Every have gerbils or Hamsters?

You will always get ONE that steals all the others seeds and nuts and fights to the Death for them... that One neurotic miserable little Hamster
...

Why? It lives in a world that is Abundant the flow will NEVER stop, Theat One Hamster just THINKS a bit too much and ponders why and freaks itself out, it's smart enough to know the food comes from somewhere and when it asks itself WHERE and can't discern an answer or the answer is "THE HAND" it then Fears and Doubts the hand thatfeeds it and decides that it better take charge and stock up...

In the process destroying MYy whole god damned Habatrail set up every single time...

And why I supplied the food it was unending

That is these men, looking up seeing a limitless Universe and choosing to question that it will all be okay, they instead choose to kill others to save themselves

reply to post by Beach Bum


I bet you do assume you know of countries that should be wiped out and are over populated.

problem is in the end it all comes down to people

And those countries are having many kids and your not and one way or another your GUARANTEED to get your shiny lil behind handed to you by them.

You can''t win by breeding over you or walking over you it doesn't matter, non population growth vs population growth

Your group is going to die off and theirs wont

You loose, the earth will be here

Their kids will be right here...

But no

Not you

Game Over

reply to post by D.E.M.


And this is absolutely what I would maintain in this thread.

That this is YOUR vision of the future and what you SEE before you and thus you face Armageddon, your manner of viewing life is at an evolutionary end.

So In essence you are correct,

People who don't believe they can get off world, people who see this as the population limit, people who lack faith and belief and hop and live and walk in this world with a MINDSET that all is wrong and nothing can be done.

People like that are going to die off, we are in the middle of an apocalypse, Millions and Millions of families, whole faiths and belief systems are crashing.

You are already dead if you have no children... this is YOUR end

I am just trying to turn a few over, Save a few before they willingly and like lemmings depopulate.

Because i'll be here, Because I have something a vision something...you simply don't. I SEE and BELIEVE in the ways to do this, how it can all be good, I'll have children and keep having them and;

NO

they wont meet some horrible end

The world wont destruct, we have faced far worse, comets landing from space, at one time our species numbers might according to geneticists have been lower than 50...50 people!!!!

And here we are...

The descendants of the tenacious few...

And this, it's just a challenge... it's not even a challenge honestly. It's not a challenge for me because I am NOT, like you say most people are An Animal

I believe it will be by and large easy

and it is because, most of you are killing your lines, not by war or starvation, simply from hopelessness, despair and Fear

Like an Animal in a natural disaster or ill, doom, crawl under a rock and die...

But to the beggining

You are correct, for you the human condition is Animal, this is what you see, this is what you believe, you don't even get the example of the Hominid and the fruit tree, you look up and see stars you know there are planets...

But you...

You for some reason, perhaps it is in your very genes?

But you have chosen, we are Animals, we can not go to the stars we are doomed, we wont have children...

and you will age and die

and in that manner your world will end, so yes you are correct, not just you to pick on you many or you most of you are already dead if you live by this philosophy

It is life without hope and without hope there is no Life.

reply to post by mopusvindictus

You forgot to mention the huge rain forest in the Amazon. No one lives there either apart from a few folks. Just cut all the trees and develop the land.

reply to post by stander


The problem with tearing out the rain forests is that the nutrients of rain forests are found in the canopy and the land that they exist on is essentially not arable. Also, up to 20% of the world's oxygen is produced by the Amazon rain forest.

www.rain-tree.com...

reply to post by mopusvindictus


That's all fine and dandy in theory, y'all. But in reality humans are stupid. Bring on mass suffering!

reply to post by elfie


There is no problem in regards to the Rain forest, Not only could you keep the majority of the Rain Forest you could farm along the banks of the Amazon sporadically with vertical food towers and use Underground housing to allow the Rain forest to exist.

In fact, the reality is that underground houses are nice, allow you to live in harmony with nature are far more energy efficient than regular houses, provide greater safety in most disasters than a regular house including Earth Quake, Tornado and most definitely during War time, but they could be built in sections allowing any kind of Forest growth to naturally surround and grow over the much of your property.

The only thing that prevents the use of underground housing is some odd connection to Square housing unit's because "everyone" does it that way right now...

But as the population grows, we are going to have to rethink how we do things.

It really is insane to stick with something that doesn't work well and uses far more energy and costs more and is less safe simply because we are Used to things a certain way. It would be almost a definition of insanity to persist in the same methods time and again if failure is guaranteed, worse to advocate the taking or limiting of human life when there are very smile solutions to every situation.

The Rain forest or any forest absolutely could support Millions and Millions of Human beings to live in it by simply changing our method of home design to accommodate it.

Another poster is saying that we need to teach our kids to live in harmony with Nature...

Cultures that refuse to will perish and cultures and individuals who are willing to adapt will not.

It's simple Evolution, the most natural process of all...

We can absolute expand our numbers and coexist with nature, the rain forest and not destroy those places in the process

The real question is willingness, some would rather advocate killing or simply not reproducing

But again the reality is people other than you will keep reproducing and those among them willing to change and adapt to the needs of the times not an Idyllic picture of how they wish it would be, will actually flourish

People keep saying man will not change, But the reality is, The man that does not Change will perish.

Adaptation, Invention, Willingness... these are the keys to continued growth.