I'm ashamed!

Originally posted by 7redorbs
1. My own personal research shows that rituals changed based on degree, yes. I have other sources too that can verify this too, usually I get it from a close friend. Sometimes I sit down for days trying to understand and interpret what information he has. Hiram Key?

Masonry is a progressive science. Each successive degree builds upon the previous. That hardly amounts to 'changing' in the manner you're referring to.

Originally posted by 7redorbs
2. Yes, I can back up my `assertions` with AN example; the meaning of the first 3 degrees is not just a material transformation [snip]

Well you just hit your first pothole there. Material transformation has nothing whatever to do with the degrees of Craft Masonry.

Originally posted by 7redorbsthe re-enactment of the murder and resurrection of Hiram Abiff

Wrong again. Either your information source or your interpretation is fundamentally incorrect for a reason that should be blindingly obvious to someone with even a passing familiarity with the ritual.

Originally posted by 7redorbs
3. I dont think I made any unsupported supposition by stating `I try and keep away from the pike topic...

But you did and for good measure you repeat the same canard about Pike as a Satanist. You don't even cite what you think might be worthwhile origins for your belief.

Originally posted by 7redorbs
I do state that it is no big secret at all pike was affiliated with Adam Weishaupt....[snip]

Credible citations do wonders for the stature of one's arguments. Incredible ones work in opposition.

Originally posted by 7redorbs
3. (continued) According to Albert Pike, in Morals and Dogma,the Illuminati, like their predecessors, the Templars, Rosicrucians, and Freemasons, were inheritors of the ancient tradition of the Kabbalah:. Masons in ritual carrying idol of the Baphomet of the Templars.

Credible citations do wonders for the stature of one's arguments. Incredible ones work in opposition.

Originally posted by 7redorbs
I have studied in _some_ detail, all of these things, and frankly I think you are being just a little bit obnoxious, when frowning down at my 'mere mortal' non freemason status. Gosh, how could I possibly know something that the secret society of the Freemasons don't know about themselves already.

You claim to "have studied in _some_ detail" yet demonstrate basic errors, misinterpreting or misrepresenting details. This speaks to either the quality of your 'study' or its direction. In either case, it demonstrates that your study is not reliable.

Originally posted by 7redorbs
In at least some cases, in terms of the 'minions' as popularly entitled by anti-masons/anti-satanists, often have _ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA_

Again, as you've already demonstrated, it seems to me that the "minions" aren't the clueless ones.

Originally posted by 7redorbs
- and this sir is why i thought it apt to give documented history a fair mention, rather than the obviously growing unsupported suppositions of other people.

I always make it a habit not to say anything that can't be backed up by fact, and hope you respect that

I would if you'd actually demonstrated that to be fact. Thus far, you've haven't.

Originally posted by 7redorbs
4. you state quoting me that `The side rites are relevant to, in and of themselves alone. Outside of that framework, what happens in the Scottish Rite is of relevance only to the Scottish Rite and not to York Rite nor Craft Masonry.`, which isn't a disenginuous statement by itself,

Which isn't a disingenuous statement. Period

Originally posted by 7redorbs
but given the actions of Pike, it is certainly naive not to call into question that, Pike, the head of the illuminati, and a high ranking member of scottish rite, un-noteworthy unsupported, or a supposition of any kind.. do some research on Guiseppe Mazzini and Weishaupt perhaps?

Credible citations do wonders for the stature of one's arguments. Incredible ones work in opposition.

Originally posted by 7redorbs
Because to me, it's clear, even if the 'conflict of interest' is incorrect, the reasoning is most justified in concern to consideration of the fact of historical account, even when ignoring conflict of interest (because, i suppose, people can be honest from time to time!) :-)

Would you care to parse that into English? Because you're backtracking so badly that your logic is tortured at best.

Originally posted by 7redorbs
5. What can I say, I'm not a freemason, are you?

3 guesses and the first two don't count.

reply to post by Fitzgibbon


I'm sorry, I thought you had stated I was full of supposition and had asked for clarification of my supporting fact specifically linking pike with illuminati and a conflict of interests, about this you say nothing; in my stating this you have replied with pure supposition, without a basis... Don't you think it could be considered a bit moronic?

You say I insist Pike is a satanist whilst I have gone out of my way not to throughout the thread, instead I was trying to concentrate on the misplaced fear of anti-masons to freemasonry, an honestly futile battle , since clearly it is the bearer of the philosophy that can do the damage, not the philosophy itself. As I have said several times now, this general rule applies to freemasons and anti-freemasons. People do the damage, not these generalised 'group''s. This is why I thought it was at least mentioning/considering the pike illuminati link.

You disagree with my interpretation however you merely state I am mistaken? You do not accept the history I've cited either.. I'm surprised.

Forgive me for being blunt, you seem more geared on disagreeing the subject matter at hand rather than debating it.. which is fine, but i genuinely would have liked to hear your opinion of the facts..

A

[edit on 1-9-2009 by 7redorbs]

[edit on 1-9-2009 by 7redorbs]

ps. youd stated `
The side rites are relevant to, in and of themselves alone. Outside of that framework, what happens in the Scottish Rite is of relevance only to the Scottish Rite and not to York Rite nor Craft Masonry.`

and i had replied a link between illuminati to pike and the scottish rite, and you still think my facts are bad and there is no _possibility_ of conflict of interest?

[edit on 1-9-2009 by 7redorbs]
some good material if anyone's interested

Freemasonry in context: history, ritual, controversy
By Art DeHoyos, S. Brent Morris

The Hiram Key: Pharaohs, Freemasonry, and the Discovery of the Secret Scrolls of Jesus (ISBN 0-099-69941-9) is a book by Christopher Knight and Robert Lomas


Is It True What They Say About Freemasonry?
The Methods of Anti-Masons

By Arturo de Hoyos and S. Brent Morris


www.srmason-sj.org...


The worst readers are those who proceed like plundering soldiers: they pick up a few things they use, soil and confuse the rest, and blaspheme the whole.

--Friedrich Nietzsche, Mixed Opinions and Maxim




[edit on 1-9-2009 by 7redorbs]

[edit on 1-9-2009 by 7redorbs]

I think I may have failed in the point of contention here.. So I'm going to try again and make it a little simpler.

I'm not an anti mason I am just someone trying to understand..

I feel that my information is accurate when I say that the rituals do change depending on degree. Although it is my personal feeling that you're mistaken about the re-enactment of Solomon et al, my contact believes there may be some misinterpretation between us in the points I made.



So, after having spoken to my source, the son of the head of the knights templar, he recommended that I asked you to clarify your points

Thanks for your help,

A

[edit on 1-9-2009 by 7redorbs]

Originally posted by 7redorbs
reply to post by Fitzgibbon

 

I'm sorry, I thought you had stated I was full of supposition and had asked for clarification of my supporting fact specifically linking pike with illuminati and a conflict of interests, about this you say nothing;

What part of

Originally posted by Fitzgibbon
Credible citations do wonders for the stature of one's arguments. Incredible ones work in opposition.

doesn't compute for you? It's pretty clear and unequivocal. As for not arguing the point, what's the point of debating an unsourced phantom?

Originally posted by 7redorbs
in my stating this you have replied with pure supposition, without a basis... Don't you think it could be considered a bit moronic?

Your lack of source citation isn't the least bit of supposition. It's as plain as the nose on your face. My drawing attention to this is based accordingly.

Originally posted by 7redorbs
You say I insist Pike is a satanist whilst I have gone out of my way not to throughout the thread,

How else to parse this post or this post where you feel the need to toss off:

"other more 'faithful' people may take a distasteful pleasure over the possibility of pike being a satanist"

especially when no reputable scholar cites anything of the like? This is back-door innuendo on your part while trying to claim otherwise.

Originally posted by 7redorbs
instead I was trying to concentrate on the misplaced fear of anti-masons to freemasonry, an honestly futile battle , since clearly it is the bearer of the philosophy that can do the damage, not the philosophy itself.

In short, shoot the messenger even though the message (aka the philosophy) would by definition be the more dangerous.

Originally posted by 7redorbs
You disagree with my interpretation however you merely state I am mistaken? You do not accept the history I've cited either.. I'm surprised.

You've provided an unsourced assertion. Even when repeatedly asked for the most basic of sources that would back your assertion, you quail and try to turn tables?

Originally posted by 7redorbs
Forgive me for being blunt, you seem more geared on disagreeing the subject matter at hand rather than debating it.. which is fine, but i genuinely would have liked to hear your opinion of the facts...

You're clamouring to get out of the starting blocks with assertions that have been made repeatedly and disproved as often and yet I'm "geared on disagreeing" because I point out your lack of sourcing?

Originally posted by 7redorbs
ps. youd stated
"The side rites are relevant to, in and of themselves alone. Outside of that framework, what happens in the Scottish Rite is of relevance only to the Scottish Rite and not to York Rite nor Craft Masonry."

and i had replied a link between illuminati to pike and the scottish rite, and you still think my facts are bad and there is no _possibility_ of conflict of interest?

Yet again, you didn't provide any kind of a link or source but rather point blank made an assertion that in your mind somehow connects Pike to the Illuminati. And again you duck responding to the fact that Pike in this context is relevant to the Southern Jurisdiction of the Scottish Rite in the U.S. which deep-sixes the worldwide Masonic Illuminati thread to your assertions.

Originally posted by 7redorbs
I feel that my information is accurate when I say that the rituals do change depending on degree.

Change is poor word choice which is clearly leading to confusion. That's why I cited Masonry's own description of being a progressive science. The ritual builds upon itself in successive degrees.

Originally posted by 7redorbs
Although it is my personal feeling that you're mistaken about the re-enactment of Solomon et al, my contact believes there may be some misinterpretation between us in the points I made.

Re-enactment of Hiram Abiff you mean? No. Without compromising my own obligations, I can definitely say that your personal feeling is in error.

Originally posted by Fitzgibbon

Originally posted by 7redorbs
I feel that my information is accurate when I say that the rituals do change depending on degree.

Change is poor word choice which is clearly leading to confusion. That's why I cited Masonry's own description of being a progressive science. The ritual builds upon itself in successive degrees.

Originally posted by 7redorbs
Although it is my personal feeling that you're mistaken about the re-enactment of Solomon et al, my contact believes there may be some misinterpretation between us in the points I made.

Re-enactment of Hiram Abiff you mean? No. Without compromising my own obligations, I can definitely say that your personal feeling is in error.

well sir, you are very good at pointing out the so called flaws in my argument and i commend you for that. I do not have all of my references and I have not provided all, and to be honest I did not expect to be approached in such a manner as you have, demanding the 'proof' in my sources. Obviously this is not a simple topic and you cannot expect me to just pull out years of research out of my hat that i've not really concerned myself with..

I have conveyed things as accurately as I possibly can, and have revealed I have been in contact with the son of the head of the knights templar, if you are a 3rd degree mason , and are concerned about breaching your obligations, I would only ask that you be a little more respectful of me, as your accusations are pretty harsh and upsetting. I personally find it quite disrespectful to the chap I have received some of this info from,

I stand by everything I have said, if you would like a discussion rather than an inquisition , then maybe we can reach a mutual understanding on this topic.

because I like you seek to understand, the only difference is I refuse to condemn you.

A

Originally posted by 7redorbs
I feel that my information is accurate when I say that the rituals do change depending on degree.

I'd love to hear a bit more detail on that. Explicitly WHAT is taught in degree n which is contradicted in a degree > n? Maybe it's more obvious to an outsider than to someone who's been actually performing these rituals for years.

Originally posted by 7redorbs
well sir, you are very good at pointing out the so called flaws in my argument and i commend you for that. I do not have all of my references and I have not provided all, and to be honest I did not expect to be approached in such a manner as you have, demanding the 'proof' in my sources.

Why on Earth wouldn't you? If you're going to make assertions that contradict people, is it really that surprising that you'd be expected to be able to provide some reasonable support for your assertions?

Originally posted by 7redorbs
Obviously this is not a simple topic and you cannot expect me to just pull out years of research out of my hat that i've not really concerned myself with..

You seemed confident enough of them to pull out an assertion from somewhere so that assertion should be able to be backstopped by something other than opinion if it's to be accepted as something other than baseless opinion. Is that really so unreasonable?

Originally posted by 7redorbs
I have conveyed things as accurately as I possibly can, and have revealed I have been in contact with the son of the head of the knights templar,

Which means what exactly? Is he a Mason himself or are you relying on his assertions as well? And what exactly does being "the son of the head of the knights templar" mean in this equation?

Originally posted by 7redorbs
if you are a 3rd degree mason , and are concerned about breaching your obligations, I would only ask that you be a little more respectful of me, as your accusations are pretty harsh and upsetting. I personally find it quite disrespectful to the chap I have received some of this info from,

The other chap isn't the one on the Internet making unsupported or corroborated assertions. You are. You've made a raft of them and suddenly you expect respect when someone calls Bravo Sierra on you? Sorry your feelings are hurt but you're the one that went off half-cocked.

Originally posted by 7redorbs
I stand by everything I have said, if you would like a discussion rather than an inquisition , then maybe we can reach a mutual understanding on this topic.

You have made assertions you can't substantiate. How do you expect there to be an informed discussion when you're relying on "the son of the head of the knights templar" who may or may not be a Mason himself and may or may not have acquired his intelligence by sneaking a peek at his Dad's Book of the Work?

Mutual understanding requires a common ground, a common level of experience, something that is clearly not possible in this tête-à-tête

reply to post by 7redorbs

I would only ask that you be a little more respectful of me, as your accusations are pretty harsh and upsetting.

Wow! Without wishing to stick up for freemasonry, or masons, I will do just this once. You're talking to people who routinely get accussed of being satanists, plotting our downfall, abusing children, being shape shifting reptile thingies, being arrogant, being conceited, being liars and belonging to a masonic religion. . .

"And they've upset you!!?"

so ashamed...tsk tsk. I feel sorry for you. I hope you feel better. Here's a video just for you.

www.youtube.com...




[edit on 1-9-2009 by allclear]

[edit on 1-9-2009 by allclear]

[edit on 1-9-2009 by allclear]

Sorry for the typos...

The Illuminati-In light of modern history

what I am about to explain is the origin, the history, the dogma and the identity of the ancient mystery religions which are now know as the mystery schools, the order of the quest, freemasonry, the order of the rose and cross, the knights templar, the sovergin and military order of the knights of malta,The oder of St. Jhon of druselem, The prori dde sion, the thule society, The skull and bones,The Russel trust, The JASON society,The scrool and key, The Bavarian Illuminati,....Ect. The inportant thing to realize is that they have all been collectively known throughout the ages as the "Mystery schools", as well as the "Illuminati" which literally means "illumined-ones". International socialism communism-they are all one and the same.In order to fully understand we must begin in the beginning of every story of every history, we must begin in the beginning of mankind.....The tree dwelling ancestors were amoung the most intellegent creatures of there distant age, and when these creatures finnaly abondenond the trees and began to walk fully upright freeing threre hands to be used as implements of threre minds,there began the most intellegent drive toward higher intellegence ever witnessed in nature. As ground dwellers these creatures were easy victems of the great preditors, who hunted them down by day and supprised them at night as they huddeled in clearings or caves. They could not compete in speed, strengh or fortality with there attackers. Armed with little except there hands and what there complex brains enabled them to do with these hands, they had to either think or die. For thousands of years most of them met early and violent deaths, only a few in each generation had the good fortune and the ability to outwitt there enimes. These favored ones lived long enough to have and reer offspring, the unweary or STUPID died early,and there offspring would be left to starve or be eaten by preditors. Natural selection was at work, perhaps no other creature on earth has undergone such a severe period of selective elimination. Yet here and there small groups managed to survive because they had the intellegence to use sticks, stones and clubs to defend themselves. As crude and puny as these implements were they were weapons, and there possers first creatures who could kill without comming into direct contact with there antagonist. As great beasts grew either larger or more formitable man became evermore watchfull evermore successfull at pinning his wits against mass and power, more and more adept at slipping out of trouble, and as the challange grew greater so did his mind. Those who could not adapt were left behind in a race for the future, and we are still engaged in that race today. The steps in the devlopement of mans brain are revealed with the progressively larger brain cases which have appeared with the passage of centuries. Baseing our judgemants on the tools and weapons which took place as the as the intellegence of there inventors increased, we can construct some of the ways natural selection may have brought about a doubleing in brain size. You see many nuts are too hard for even a cave man to crack between his teeth, Accordingly they were useless to early man untill some genius of his day discovered that any nut could be cracked if it were simply placed on one stone and struck hard with another. Better fed the family of this innovater survived, while others died off. Perhaps centures later a man sat cracking nuts between two stones, one stone broke and the broken edge cut his hand. previously other men the same situation had thrown the stone away and nursed his cuts. But this man began thinking, since the edge had cut threw his hand and drew blood, it might also cut threw the skin otf the small animals that he caught making it easer to get at the meat. The first knife was invented. Those close to him and intellegent enough to mimic him increased in number and the rest died off. This cutting tool alowed him to skin and eat meat in less time. Therefore man had more time for hunting. Decendents of this man eventually beace more skillfull at chipping stones for the use of tools and weapons which further devloped the human mind. Natural selection favoring better knife makers went on for hundereds of thousands of years. WIth the graduall devlopement the weapons used too kill there pray, man no longer had to be such herdy food gatherers, the hunted gradually became hunters. However incomplete our knowledge of human ancestory, there is no doubt that is was brain power not body power, intellegence which was the decisive force in the evolutionary process which has culminatedint the appearince of the species to which we belong. Even with mans new weapons and tools it did not take him long to realize that the single greatest enimey to be feared was the darkness of night and all the unkown dangers that came with it. Simply stated mans first enimey was darkness. Understanding this one fact alone one can readily see why the greatest and most trustworthy friend that the human race can ever have was by far heavens greatest gift to the world, that glorious rising orb of day...the sun. Now with this simple truth understood we can begin to unravel the most ancient and most successfull religion upon the face of this earth. Its success lies in its ability to remain hidden from the rest of the people. Now let me assure you that no ancient people took the sun to be god. In fact every nation and culture on earth have used the sun as the most logically appropreate symbol to represent the unseen creator of the heavens. In the old testiment it states "the heavens are declaireing the glory of god". another old testement quote "The sun of rightisnoius will arise". Since no one could claim ownership to the great orb of day it must belong to the unseen created of the universe, so it became figureitively speaking "Gods sun" which the ancients called the "Light of the world". In the dark cold night man realized his vaunerability to the eliments. each night mankind was forced to wait for the rising of the sun to chase away the physical and mentall insecurity brought about by the darkness. Therefore the morning sun focused mans attention on heavenly dependence, becomming a symbol of divine benevolence from heaven. For without the sun there is no light there is no warmth and nothing could grow or live upon the face of the earth. So just as a fire brought limited light into mans world of darkness, likewise the great orb of day served the whole earth with its heavenly presence, it is for this reason that the the god of the bible is said to be a consuming fire in heaven. Ancient man saw his likeness in his own image as a father was proved by the existence of his son, is was assumed that the sun was but a visable representitive of the unseen creater. Thats why is says in the bible "When you have seen the son you have seen the father". And said another was "The father is gloryified in his sun". Ancient man at this time had no problem understanding that all life on earth depended on life giving enegry from the sun, consiquently all life was lost without the sun. It followed that gods sun was nothing less than mans savior. Since enegry from the sun gives life and we sustain our very existance from our food which grows because of the suns enegry, it followed that "gods sun must give up its life for us to live"(are you making any connections?). While it was plainly true that our lives were sustained by our savoir, "gods sun" it was and would only be true as long as the sun would return each morning, therefore our salvation would only be secure in a "risin savior". For if he did not rise from his grave of darkness,all would be lost. so it was said that the promise from the father was that he would surely "come again". Logically even if the man himself died, as long as the sun would come up each day,life on earth would continue forever, there for it was said in the ancient texts, that everlasting life was the gift the father gives, through his "SUN". For god so loved the world that he gave his only begotten sun, so that we may have life everlasting here on earth. This did not mean for you personally.since harm lurked around every corner in the darkness of night. All evil deeds became metaphorically speaking, the works of darkness. And with the return of the sun each morning man felt more secure in his world feeling more "at peace". There fore gods sun became metaphorically speaking the "Prince of peace". There for the ruler of evil and night became the "Prince of darkness". This is what brought about the consecpt of light being good and dark being bad. This is why the preists of the ancient mystery religion always followed the light. They always faced the east during prayer or meditation. They considered them selves to be Illumined. The ancient preists taught that we should all give thanx to "Gods Sun". So we now have before us two cosmic brothers one very good and one very bad, one brings the truth to light with the light of truuth the pther the opposisition to the light or the opposer(the prince of the world of darkness). It is at this point we come to egypt, 3 thousand years before christianity began, the morning sun the "Savoir" was pictured in egypt as a newborn babe the infants saviors name was Horus. The early morning sun of the new born babe was pictured int to ways, the dove the bringer of peace and the hawk the god of was who punishes the enimes of god. Today in government we still use these terms "Doves" and "Hawks". Thats how powerfull this hidden religion is is that we use the terms and know it not. At day break this newborn child is of corse "Born again" Halluleh-Horus is risen-that is what halluelah means. Even today, when the sun comes up we see it on the horus risen or "HORIZON". His life was also divided into twelve parts the twelve horus, or the tweleve signs of the zodiac. In Egypt the prince of darkness was called siet or sometimes typhon. In the bible it says the when the lords son dies we are left are left to the world of darkness at sunset. SUN-SET, do you understand?, gods sun was killed by the prince of darkness siet at sun-set. It was gernerally observed that gods sun could be depended upon to return each morning in the same manner that he left usually upon a cloud. Keeping in mind that the sun not only represented the light of truth, but was put to death by his enimes that could not endure the light of truth in there life, It was taught by the ancients that the very act of opposing or denying the light of truth to the point of killing it happened in ones own mind. When we are confronted with the harsh realitys of life, the truth or the "Light of truth" which we do not wish to face and runs counter to our views such truth is put to death in your mind and in your head, there for the truth of light is put to death in your skull or skull place. Located somewhere between your ears, with this putting to death of the light of hope your mind is always accompined by the two theives regret for the past and fear of the future. Thses consecpets have much to do with the reason that Jesus Christ in the bible is pictured going to his death wearing a crown of thorns. Remember the statue of liberty? Kings to this day still wear a round crown of thorns symbolizing the rays of the sun. As far as we can go into our research, every cultuer at one time or another had a triune god. The very first trinity was simply the three stages of the life of the sun. Newborn at dawn, mature or full grown at noon and old and dieing at the end of day going back to the father all three of corse were one divinity. The egyptians knew that sun was at the highest pint in the sky when no shadowwas cast by the pyramid. At that point all of egypt offered prayers to the most high god. To the ancients the sky was the abode or heavenly temple of the most high, therefore in the bible therefore gods son (jesus) is doing his work in the temple at noon. the world of ancient man kept track of times and seasons by the movement of the sun, daily, mothly and yearly for this tyhe sun-dial was devised. Exampeles of this are ancient mexican,mayen,aztec, inca, sumerian, babylonian, asserian, egyptian, Celtec, Arian,...Ect. and with this new consecpts emerged in the mind of man. Since the earth experianced four different season each the same int lenght of time each year, The round calander was divided into four different parts, this represented the complete story of the life of gods sun. Thats why in the bible there are only four gospels, many early church fathers stated this fact in there own writting. This is why the famous painting of the last supper, pictures the 12 followers or houses of the sun in 4 groups of 3 with the sun in the center alone. Now taking the round calander of the zodiac draw a line cuttng it in half, one end being the point of the winter solstice, the other being the point of the summer solstice. Then draw another straight line crossing the first one end being the spring equonix the other being the autem equonex. You now have the starting points for each of the four seasons. This is refered to in all reference books both ancient and modern as the CROSS of the zodiac. Thus the life of 'gods sun" was on the cross. This is why you will see the round symbol of the sun on the crosses of christian chruches. On december the 22 the sun going south reaches the lowest point in the sky, or winter solstice, at this point the sun stops moving on the sun dial for three days, december 22, 23 and 24th. Hence our savior for three days died on the cross(this is the only time of the year that this happends. Hence our savior is born again, comming back to life in the spring. Just look at the number of times the number 12 occurs in the bible: 12 apostles of the "son"(SUN), the 12 tribes of isrial, 12 brothers of joseph, 12 patriches, 12 prophets,12 kings, 12princes, ..Ect. Today we have expressions when people die, we say things like theve passed, or they passed on or they passed away. The ancients said they passed over form one life to another, over what? over the river, and so it was with the comming of spring, the sun was resserurected from its death in winter to his new life in spring. This is why the christians celebrate the resurection with a sun rise survice at easter, ands the jews who new this religion from there time in capitivety in babylon, celebrate the same with a pass-over. With this knowledgewe can now add the fact that the first deaken of the astrological sigh of virgo, is comma, or "the disered one of the nations". This was pictured by theancient astrologers as a virgin girl holding a new born babe. So in the spring or sign of virgo, gods sun is born of a virgin, incidently the astrological sign associated with virgo isthe letter M, or marie which means pure in laten hence mary the pure virgin, and all througout every caulture you will find representations by other names representing the virgin mother with the child. Isis with the child horus. Now in the book of peter in the bible it says "Gods son is the cheif sheperd". Gos son is also called the cheif corner stone. The word in greak for corner stone simply means "the peak of a pyramid". The prefix acro or topmost was addedd by the jews to the already existing greek adjective "gonious++_+_", or at the corner. Translater renderd the hewbrew word for corner "()()()(" . Decribing a stone that was a sure foundation and which probably had reference to the future messiah. Under stood by the christian writters was that of an inportant stone which was both Acro-a peak, and a "Goneious" a corner stone. In this way a corner stone cannot be significant in less in be on the top of the structure,plus there are for or more corners to an building.although in freemasonry you will find the ceramony for laying a cornerstone for every building that is built, and if you look at the corners of buildings in washington D.C you will see the masonis and masonic date of the mystery schools, on the calander of 6000 years. So a cornerstone cannot be significat enless it is at the apex of a pyramid where all corners meet and bond together and that is the secret of the truncated pyramid missing the capstone on the reverse of the great sealof the U.S one dollar bill. In the mystery religion the master mason is the cornerstone of the lodge or peak of the pyramid. The Illumined man who functions as the eye of horus, as the spys of the mystery schools whereever he is at. Just as the pyramid in mexico city was called the pyramid of the sun, the pyramid in eypt was actuallty dedicated to the Horus the sun and thats what the seal of the doller is, The eye,the sun.the eye of Horus the sun of god. The sun enters each sign or house of the zodiac at what ia called thee 3oth degree and leaves at the 33rd degree. Thus gods sun is said by the ancients to begin his ministery at 30 and dies at 33. This is why the highest degree in freemasonry is the 33rd degree. For none can rise higher than the sun. When viewing the shimmering rays of sunlight on a body of water at dawn or at sunset one can still see how gods sun walks on water.It was understood by the ancient man that our weather was controlled by the sun. It was a simple fact that Gods sun had the power to controll storms at will. The ancient egyptians taught that he did this as he rested heavenly boat while crossing the sky, thus we read that Gods sun quited the tempest, or great storm of the sea while in his boat, Which boat? the boat of Isis. Ra the sun god also known as osiris in the bark of millions of years in which he traversed the sky wears on his head and accopined a vast sun disk symbolizeing his power as lord of the heavens. The boat formed of a serpent, bears his eye and the god is seated on a pedistle which represented the devine order or mystery school. When we stop to realize that every single King, prince, lord, ruler, dictater, ruler, symbol of social institution, national flag, coat of arms, educational institution, military medel, award, organizational insignea, madellion, bage,emblem citation,trophy,banner,pendent, political standered, agency of government or religion uses the SUN as a primary symbol, then it can truely be said in the mystery schools that "Gods sun is king of knigs and lord of lords". In egypt If you wanted to live the life of gods sun, one would first have to leave his old ways of life to follow the sun face to the east. In order to do this one had to be born again.Your first birth was out of the water your mother formed you in, because her water broke and your life began, rebirth was symbolized by comming out of total emmersian in water. Known today as babtism. George Bush when asked at a press conference weather or not he was a christian, his reply was this..."If you are asking weather or not I have been born again than the answer is yes".Today as sun rise or sunset you can still see how "Gods Sun" walks on water.

reply to post by 7redorbs


The problem with your definitions of God is that by the virtue of Satan's existence, it proves God's Existence, which immediately negates Satan's position as omnipotent and perfect. Satan was kicked out of Heaven, correct? Who was he kicked out by, pray tell?

TheBorg

reply to post by thresher32


Could you please provide a source link for this work? I'd love to get a better look at it, but can't bear to read through that HUUUGE paragraph of text.



Fitzgibbon and 7redorbs,

I've been following your discourse over the past 3 pages, and I must say that I'm keenly watching the discussion with much interest. You both seem to have reached an impasse, as it would appear that there are some sources missing from 7.

7redorbs, it would be in your best interest to back up accusations like this in any case of debate with someone else. It helps to establish your side. Having become a permanent fixture in the Debate Forum, I've had a great opportunity to hone my skills at this very thing. Trust me when I say that sourcing is like gold in a debate format, or in even simple discussion such as this.

Fitzgibbon, as a fellow mason, I can understand what you're feeling. We, as people, just have to remember that we're leading the way to helping everyone to see their true potential.

As we all know, mason and non-mason alike, The Craft aims to make the world a better place by improving the people that make up the Fraternity. They, in turn, will go out and do good works in their communities, which helps everyone, and makes the world a better place.

Sometimes, enlightenment takes an unforseen form. In this case, this thread could be viewed as one such form. We have an unique opportunity here to convey some of our knowledge, without breaking our obligations, to the members here, in the hopes that they can learn to be more open-minded when they do their research. It would be remiss if this enlightenment was stifled by a mere misunderstanding, and a falling out between two of the more adamant members...

I guess what I'm trying to say here is simply this; lets all be patient with one another, as there are obviously some roadblocks between us. Without pointing fingers at each other, lets take a step back and rethink the approach. Only through trial, error, and diligent research will we ever reach the truth.

It's what this whole life is about.

TheBorg

[edit on 2-9-2009 by TheBorg]

you know what, forget it.

[edit on 2-9-2009 by 7redorbs]

Originally posted by Mintwithahole.

why did the guy who refused to say the word, god, have to get dressed? Are you naked during these rituals?

No. But during the ritual the candidate is clad in a ceremonial garment furnished by the Lodge, not his street clothes.

I'm ashamed of your bloody SPELLING!!

"TEH" instead of THE??!!

If you wanna be taken seriously then at least type correctly!

HAHAHA!!

Originally posted by Masonic Light

Originally posted by Mintwithahole.

why did the guy who refused to say the word, god, have to get dressed? Are you naked during these rituals?

No. But during the ritual the candidate is clad in a ceremonial garment furnished by the Lodge, not his street clothes.

Sorry Mint, I did not see that you responded to my comment. Masonic Light is correct, there are certain pieces of apparel that all Masons have worn during their initiation ceremonies.

Thank you, ML, for answering.

First, Freemasonry is th e"farm league" FOR the Illuminati. It is the "base" of the pyramid. DUH.

The Illuminati have to get their subjects from somewhere. And there has been so much infiltration into the organization and most of the "secret" books have been exposed, your shameful writing is shameful.

Baphomet, Mahabone, Jahbuhlun, Baal, Lucifer, Satan, all the same idea. Stupid!!!

So if the masons and their "leaders" such as Albert Pike and so on, do not worship or conduct ceremonies to Lucifer, why would they write about it in these books? I have seen many. I have been inside a Lodge and my father-in-law was a mason and we had discussed it. No secret there.

And so many 32nd and 33rd masons have come forward and ADMITTED what is going on, are they liars? So where are you coming from. Documented history. Why feel shameful?

reply to post by Spooky Fox Mulder


I can't tell you how much your post means to me.

I've always respected you even if we didn't agree.

No need to be ashamed, though. It just wouldn't be any fun to be a Mason if everyone accepted us at face value!

Originally posted by daddio
First, Freemasonry is th e"farm league" FOR the Illuminati. It is the "base" of the pyramid. DUH.

Great. Finally someone who can prove to me where the Illuminati are. I have been looking tirelessly for eons. Please good sir, point me in the correct direction!

The Illuminati have to get their subjects from somewhere. And there has been so much infiltration into the organization and most of the "secret" books have been exposed, your shameful writing is shameful.

Baphomet, Mahabone, Jahbuhlun, Baal, Lucifer, Satan, all the same idea. Stupid!!!

Ahh, so perhaps you could break down the importance of all these labels I admit I have not seen "Baphomet, Baal" in any work I have studied.
Satan is the bad guy with the pithfork and red suit right?

So if the masons and their "leaders" such as Albert Pike and so on, do not worship or conduct ceremonies to Lucifer, why would they write about it in these books? I have seen many. I have been inside a Lodge and my father-in-law was a mason and we had discussed it. No secret there.

I am sorry to be the one to break this to you, you might want to sit for this one, but Mr. Pike has passed on. Sorry.

And so many 32nd and 33rd masons have come forward and ADMITTED what is going on, are they liars? So where are you coming from. Documented history. Why feel shameful?

I have seen many 32 and 33 degree mason on this very forum admit what is really going on. In fact, I myself a 32nd degree Scottish Rite Mason and 3rd degree master mason have "spilled the beans" on more that one occasion. I hope I have not told an untruth!