I'm ashamed!

Although I don't necessarily buy this 'satanist crap' as some have put it. It's worth noting that the definition of God is pretty pasty.. some people won't like this, but satanists believe Satan is their god. That is monotheistic religion for you , I guess? One god, my god, etc.

It is of my understanding that the only requirement to join freemasonry is the belief in a supreme being or creator, not a Christian God or any other specific god! Isn't this correct?

This by no means that all masons, or any masons are satanists. Just that, theoretically 'God' can mean anything, and you know - guess what - people can lie too ;-)


1. God
a. A being conceived as the perfect, omnipotent, omniscient originator and ruler of the universe, the principal object of faith and worship in monotheistic religions.
b. The force, effect, or a manifestation or aspect of this being.
2. A being of supernatural powers or attributes, believed in and worshiped by a people, especially a male deity thought to control some part of nature or reality.
3. An image of a supernatural being; an idol.
4. One that is worshiped, idealized, or followed: Money was their god.
5. A very handsome man.
6. A powerful ruler or despot.

god, Noun
1. a supernatural being, worshipped as the controller of the universe or some aspect of life or as the personification of some force.

2. an image of such a being

3. a person or thing to which excessive attention is given: the All Blacks are gods in New Zealand.
4. the gods the top balcony in a theatre [Old English]

goddess fem n, God, Noun
the sole Supreme Being, Creator and ruler of all, in religions such as Christianity, Judaism, and Islam

interj,
an oath or exclamation of surprise or annoyance


A

reply to post by Mintwithahole.


And Im telling you that self-proclaimed satanists are not permitted to the lodge.

If you dont believe it, try it out for yourself: Send a lodge an email, introduce yourself as a satanist and tell them you`d like to join a lodge.

Good luck.

Originally posted by 7redorbs

1. God
a. A being conceived as the perfect, omnipotent, omniscient originator and ruler of the universe

That will do as a masonic Definition.

Originally posted by 7redorbs
As I said, it is my belief that rank may be much of an illusion; for a society of esoteric 'practice' (is that the right word?)

Yes, I think it is the right word.

, one should not be surprised if meanings and agendas were... at for lack of a better word, less material in their nature - as much of 'magick' or 'occultism' 'symbolism' and the 'occult' could be considered quite an unscientific, or immaterial realm - and perhaps no matter what degree the mason is, or is not, or his associations - the definition of order in immaterial ideology may not carry over from conventionally accepted scientific (materialism) culture.

I think you are spot on. A mason who has completed several side degrees is highly respected by other Freemasons, and definitely influences the way of thinking of newer masons.

As you suggest, too many non-masons make the mistake of thinking of 'rank' as a material thing.

The question is, what influence does rank have over Agenda, and what influence does perception have over order.. these are good questions no?

Unfortunately, too little. I have often complained that many of the more esoteric parts of the ritual have been removed by the powers that be in Freemasonry, simply to comply with popular demand of the more non-esoteric masons in the fraternity.

It is a sad reality that most of those masons with much esoteric knowledge spend all their time learning further and have no time for "management " of Freemasonry. Most of the 'high ranking' masons (in a material sense) and 3° masons who have perfected the work of the craft or blue lodge degrees.

Originally posted by Skyfloating

Originally posted by 7redorbs

1. God
a. A being conceived as the perfect, omnipotent, omniscient originator and ruler of the universe

That will do as a masonic Definition.

I'm going to stay away from the satanist thing because its a little misdirected. (in my opinion of course). I will quickly state though that the definition is a little ambiguous perhaps?

Again, avoiding arguing over satan or the existence.

Lets just say for example in a scenario that satan does not exist, and satanists are delusional, if this is so and I have noted, delusional people often will claim things are what they are not, and in the cases of 'satanists' and this scenario per-say, the definition would apply. Shortly translated, this is a lot of effort to go to just to prove that people can lie or mislead themselves (and other people too!), and join the freemasons, but so be it, in any case 'lie/mislead' scenarios don't just apply to satanists, they apply to everyone, and that's why I think it is worth mentioning.

A

[edit on 1-9-2009 by 7redorbs]

reply to post by Skyfloating


If you had bothered to read what I said you would have seen that I said to Level Head that the satanist in question wouldn't come straight out and say he was a satanist!!! ironically, he would keep that secret from the society with secrets!! Reading that why do you mention, "self proclaimed satanist?" A "self proclaimed satanist" possibly wouldn't be able to gain admission to anywhere that decent human beings congregate due to the imagery which we conjure up when we think of satanism.

reply to post by 7redorbs


In that quoted definition there is zero ambiguity.

Now if a "Satanist" chooses to call the Omnipotent "Satan" he might very well sneak into the lodge by saying "Yes, I believe in a Supreme Being". But for Christians to then say "Aha...that means Masons are satanists!" is misdirective.

In my experience, those who have gained access to a lodge by less-than-honest means soon become very bored with charity, benevolence, discipline, etc. and leave rather than going through the degrees.

reply to post by Mintwithahole.


Being that the Satanist would have to proclaim a belief in God more then once, and by doing so lie about his own beliefs; what would be the purpose of trying to join Masonry since he would be associating with people who are definetly not like minded?

reply to post by Mintwithahole.


Its possible for unmasonic people to gain access to lodges. What then happens is either they change their character because they are surrounded by teachings of virtue, or they leave because they are bored.

In rare cases they go undetected and cause harm to Freemasonry.

[edit on 1-9-2009 by Skyfloating]

Originally posted by Akoostikreiki
This topic alone has me reananalyzing my approach to the whole freemasons.
I suppose every group of people has the possibility of being evil.
It does still bother me though that there is so much evidence which seems undeniable that masons have been behind some atrocities...

However, the problem is that many posters don't seem to be capable of distinguishing between actions that have no connection to Masonry by Masons as individuals as opposed to actions by Masons as a group carried out in the name of Masonry.

Likewise, it's undeniable that Masons have been behind a great many great works, works which number far in excess of anything that could be labelled an atrocity. But if it bleeds, it leads; anti-Masons would rather focus on negative individual exceptions as opposed to the predominant good done by the group as a whole.

Originally posted by Skyfloating
reply to post by 7redorbs

 

In that quoted definition there is zero ambiguity.

if so,only just, i think the only thing that saves it is the word 'perfect' but OK Edit: ok ok, maybe I'm wrong this point is buke anyway, see below

Originally posted by Skyfloating
Now if a "Satanist" chooses to call the Omnipotent "Satan" he might very well sneak into the lodge by saying "Yes, I believe in a Supreme Being". But for Christians to then say "Aha...that means Masons are satanists!" is misdirective.

In my experience, those who have gained access to a lodge by less-than-honest means soon become very bored with charity, benevolence, discipline, etc. and leave rather than going through the degrees.

Yah, I by no means am saying Masons are satanists, that is madness.. if everybody occupied the same reality, they'd agree, and unless the masons have solved that one, (which although is sometimes debatable) - it is very hasty to apply a badge to all people, they aren't the same.. keep looking!

It's true that those who are dishonest do no doubt come unstuck from time to time, any conscientious freemason would do well to be wary, it only takes one in any position of power to abuse it, one human.. the philosophy is almost mute in the matter anyway - in reality i've observed it is always the human being holding the philosophy that causes damage..

Perseverance & Vigilance, something I am sure all Masons could agree with me on? Well, it was nice a thought some really interesting points raised..

To all those anti-masons or anti-satanists, the problem isnt an individual group, the problem is individual people with individual agendas.. and the scariest thing for me - which is why i can understand anti-masons _FEAR_ is.. 'group think', or 'orwellian group think' often sensationalized by the Jesuit Priest Alex Jones (I like to call him AJNLP) - roughly pragmatized to, it only takes one bad, stupid, insane, [insert madness] individual to roll an entire group of people if this vigilance is not present. (note: I'm not criticising Alex Jones, just that individual bad, but orwellian group think commanded by an individual is a worst case scenario, and that is damned scary to us all, especially if you have not mastered your fear, or self, see: masonry *chuckle )

This is why conspiracies will live on, and why fear may continue to live on in all of us for a time yet... you know I think a lot of the masons have mastered fear and centered themselves, so regardless of any case it is vigilant for the anti masons to master theirs, if any such 'claimed satanist gap' could exist.

This is another bad attempt at saying what I can, and not what I'm trying to...

Very interesting none the less.. thanks.

A

[edit on 1-9-2009 by 7redorbs]

[edit on 1-9-2009 by 7redorbs]

Originally posted by Titen-Sxull
reply to post by Spooky Fox Mulder

 

Its a SECRET brotherhood, of course there are rumors associated with it. Not only is it secret but there are many wealthy and influential members, leading to even more rumors...

And there are many more members who are middle class and others who scraping by. But it's only the rich ones that interest anti-Masons with an agenda.

Go figure.

Originally posted by Titen-Sxull
I can't believe you'd be ashamed because the myths surrounding Masons make sense to me...

Based on what perspective?

Originally posted by 7redorbs
and the scariest thing for me - which is why i can understand anti-masons _FEAR_ is.. 'group think', or 'orwellian group think'

The hive-mind has been a problem throughout history. So has the abuse of religious teachings for violent purposes. Lets hope humanity "gets it" someday.

Originally posted by LoneWolf83
to me it doesnt matter if they are handing out candy to children or collaborating the New World Order the idea that they have the opportunity to do something wrong, as in against society, and hide what they have done in secrecy does not work in a free society like ours should be.

You're making connections that don't exist and justifying them by a 'they could exist' backstop. All in the name of freedom. Ironically, that pursuit of knowing everyone else's private matters is the thin edge of the wedge to a totalitarian society. How about you take your theory and try to march into the board meeting of a company using your logic of secrecy being repugnant and potentially evil. I'm sure someone will come and bail you out.

Originally posted by 7redorbs
Let me explain, as one progresses through each degree, the ritual practices, change, to reflect that, as does the interpretation of the current 'reality' or 'consciousness', some of these rituals are private, many as a Freemason you may not know about, until invited, or attaining a 'higher' degree.

And of course you know this from your own personal experience, right? What Grand Lodge? What Lodge?

Originally posted by 7redorbs
Although it is unfounded to say that Freemasonry degree system is a cast based system of deceit, at the very least, it is founded to say that misleading people is a very confounding way to reach the same goal (not the full truth, or full known interpretation of bearer(s)).

Care to back up your assertion with some examples?

Originally posted by 7redorbs
I try and keep away from the pike topic , personally, but...[snip]

But you'll launch in and make some more unsupported suppositions nonetheless. Great! Thanks for playing.

Originally posted by 7redorbs
It is in my opinion though, it is, a little disingenuous to consider the Scottish rite 'have no more impact on freemasonry' - as compared to what?

The side rites are relevant to, in and of themselves alone. Outside of that framework, what happens in the Scottish Rite is of relevance only to the Scottish Rite and not to York Rite nor Craft Masonry.

Originally posted by 7redorbs
You also mention 'The 3rd degree is the highest. End of story. Full Stop.', in terms of attainment there is a great deal of focus put on the first 3 degree's isn't there? Funny that, but I think it is something that neither of us are qualified to answer??

I can certainly say that you've demonstrated that you aren't

Originally posted by Mintwithahole.
reply to post by Level_Head

 

But he's not going to come right out and say it is he? Outwardly he , the satanist, would look just like any other potential mason so there would be no reason to black ball him.

That's right. All he has to do is lie. Again and again and again, repeatedly. His outward lies are the lesser of the two evils; the inward ones are the ones that are more problematic. There's nothing to stop an accomplished liar from ascending to Master Mason status. But obviously he'll have to completely waste his time as the point of Masonry is becoming a more moral person and more useful to yourself, your family and community.

Originally posted by Mintwithahole.
And that's really the point I'm getting at. Masons seem so sure that there aren't any bad eggs within the fraternity and that all masons are on the same page so to speak.

No, anti-Masons are the ones that speak with such surety that all Masons are one way or another. Masons of my experience acknowledge the possibility that there can be less-than-desirable characters within the fraternity.

Originally posted by Mintwithahole.
I think they are just as likely to attract people with strange beliefs simply because such people would be attracted to the masons due to the secrecy aspect and the links (unfounded maybe) to Lucifer.

And they will be quickly disappointed (after their initiation fees have been welcomely received). Que cera, cera

Originally posted by Mintwithahole.
reply to post by Skyfloating

 

Memory work!!! Oh come on, now we're saying that all satanists must be morons?

No. I believe he said that typically (not universally) Satanists are not going to want to put in the time memorising 19th-century lexicon and phraseology. Operative word? Typically.

I'm sure there may be some but they'd have to be rather exceptional not to mention exceptionally dense to waste their time amassing what could be found at your fingertips.

Not to say that there can't be stupid Satanists

Originally posted by Fitzgibbon

Originally posted by 7redorbs
Let me explain, as one progresses through each degree, the ritual practices, change, to reflect that, as does the interpretation of the current 'reality' or 'consciousness', some of these rituals are private, many as a Freemason you may not know about, until invited, or attaining a 'higher' degree.

And of course you know this from your own personal experience, right? What Grand Lodge? What Lodge?

Originally posted by 7redorbs
Although it is unfounded to say that Freemasonry degree system is a cast based system of deceit, at the very least, it is founded to say that misleading people is a very confounding way to reach the same goal (not the full truth, or full known interpretation of bearer(s)).

Care to back up your assertion with some examples?

Originally posted by 7redorbs
I try and keep away from the pike topic , personally, but...[snip]

But you'll launch in and make some more unsupported suppositions nonetheless. Great! Thanks for playing.

Originally posted by 7redorbs
It is in my opinion though, it is, a little disingenuous to consider the Scottish rite 'have no more impact on freemasonry' - as compared to what?

The side rites are relevant to, in and of themselves alone. Outside of that framework, what happens in the Scottish Rite is of relevance only to the Scottish Rite and not to York Rite nor Craft Masonry.

Originally posted by 7redorbs
You also mention 'The 3rd degree is the highest. End of story. Full Stop.', in terms of attainment there is a great deal of focus put on the first 3 degree's isn't there? Funny that, but I think it is something that neither of us are qualified to answer??

I can certainly say that you've demonstrated that you aren't

1. My own personal research shows that rituals changed based on degree, yes. I have other sources too that can verify this too, usually I get it from a close friend. Sometimes I sit down for days trying to understand and interpret what information he has. Hiram Key?

2. Yes, I can back up my `assertions` with AN example; the meaning of the first 3 degrees is not just a material transformation , but a conscious transformation, if you're a mason you likely already know this.. If you are a master mason you are likely to have taken part in _some_ of this, (or more?), say the re-enactment of the murder and resurrection of Hiram Abiff, as a (master) mason advances the ritual changes _do some research it will take me forever to find all the source_. I applaud you for calling me out, but I don't think its a mystery, even among masons that what things appear, is not FIXED. This is an integral part of masonry, at least the more esoteric and occult side, which I focus on, anyway.

3. I dont think I made any unsupported supposition by stating `I try and keep away from the pike topic , personally, but yeah, Freemasonry should actually thank Pike for doing so much to modernize the masonic traditions, and you know, other more 'faithful' people may take a distasteful pleasure over the possibility of pike being a satanist, I actually take a dislike to the fact that Pike, as a bloodline, may , and has been suggested many times to serve the Illuminated Agenda.`
this means I stay away from the Pike topic because it's bigger than one person, however I do state that it is no big secret at all pike was affiliated with Adam Weishaupt, writing Novus Ordo Seclorum in 1776, albert pike head of the Scottish Rite, VI, added updates to the illuminati plan; and given his role in the illuminati - which is often ignored by anti-freemason/anti-satanists - goes totally unnoticed. I find it thoroughly amazing!

(continued....)

(continued...)

3. (continued) According to Albert Pike, in Morals and Dogma,the Illuminati, like their predecessors, the Templars, Rosicrucians, and Freemasons, were inheritors of the ancient tradition of the Kabbalah:. Masons in ritual carrying idol of the Baphomet of the Templars.

I have studied in _some_ detail, all of these things, and frankly I think you are being just a little bit obnoxious, when frowning down at my 'mere mortal' non freemason status. Gosh, how could I possibly know something that the secret society of the Freemasons don't know about themselves already.

In at least some cases, in terms of the 'minions' as popularly entitled by anti-masons/anti-satanists, often have _ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA_ - and this sir is why i thought it apt to give documented history a fair mention, rather than the obviously growing unsupported suppositions of other people.

I always make it a habit not to say anything that can't be backed up by fact, and hope you respect that

4. you state quoting me that `The side rites are relevant to, in and of themselves alone. Outside of that framework, what happens in the Scottish Rite is of relevance only to the Scottish Rite and not to York Rite nor Craft Masonry.`, which isn't a disenginuous statement by itself, but given the actions of Pike, it is certainly naive not to call into question that, Pike, the head of the illuminati, and a high ranking member of scottish rite, un-noteworthy unsupported, or a supposition of any kind.. do some research on Guiseppe Mazzini and Weishaupt perhaps?

Because to me, it's clear, even if the 'conflict of interest' is incorrect, the reasoning is most justified in concern to consideration of the fact of historical account, even when ignoring conflict of interest (because, i suppose, people can be honest from time to time!) :-)

5. What can I say, I'm not a freemason, are you?


Thanks for the feedback, now im tired ! :

A

I'd be more ashamed of people calling themselves "intelligent" yet still killing each other over materialistic things.

You'd think we'd learn from what history tells us. Yet we repeat the same mistakes with the experience to hide it. haha.

That's shameful.