I'm ashamed!

reply to post by Fitzgibbon

Actually that wouldn't be possible in Regular Masonry and if I seem to go on and on about Regular vs irregular masonry, this is one of the reasons why. Before initiation, a candidate is asked whether he believes in a Supreme Being (he isn't asked the particulars). Lucifer aka Satan is not the Supreme Being ergo a Satanist/Luciferion can not rightly or truthfully be a Regular Mason.

But to Satanists he is the supreme being!!! It's the same sort of ideal and thinking which has supporters of lower league football teams chant that they are the greatest team the world has ever seen. . . Doesn't matter if it's factual or can be backed up by hard facts and data! It's what they believe and when they step through the doors of a lodge and are asked whether they "believe" in a supreme being, they say yes. They do believe in a supreme being and his name could very easily be Satan.

Originally posted by Mintwithahole.
But to Satanists he is the supreme being!!! It's the same sort of ideal and thinking which has supporters of lower league football teams chant that they are the greatest team the world has ever seen. . . Doesn't matter if it's factual or can be backed up by hard facts and data! It's what they believe and when they step through the doors of a lodge and are asked whether they "believe" in a supreme being, they say yes. They do believe in a supreme being and his name could very easily be Satan.

It is universally understood that the Supreme refers to the source/cause of all-that-is, without further labels attached.

Study up.

[edit on 1-9-2009 by Skyfloating]

Originally posted by Saurus

Thanks for the input.. I await your corrections! Perhaps you could start of with your take on 'The 3rd degree is the highest. End of story. Full Stop.', as a freemason, yourself?

Why do you feel that Scottish rite is more important than any other side degree?


[edit on 1/9/2009 by Saurus]

Hey, thanks for your post Saurus. I wasn't aware I stated that the Scottish rite is more important than any other side degree.. I was merely stating that it could be premature to marginalize it without some reasoning

by my quote , I specifically wanted to know why someone thought that the 3rd degree was 'the highest'. I actually think the idea of 'rank' or 'height', may be quite the illusion, so this area of discussion is of particular interest to me.

You make some interesting points about the Scottish rite, why is it that most members are American? It'd be interesting to know.




A

Freemasonry is structured in such a way that certain side degrees are favoured by certain constitutions around the world.

Each side degree has its own numbering system, often which has some esoteric meaning. Others don't use numbering, simply names.

Since numbers awarded in degrees are usually localized to certain constitutions around the world, no weight is placed in these numbers with regard to placement in "management" of Freemasonry, which is spread all over the world.

The only requirement for placement in a top office in Freemasonry is that the Mason be a Master Mason (and in some constitutions, that the Mason belong to the Royal Arch - a degree which has no numbers.)

I think the key to understanding why 3° is the top degree in Freemasonry is that any other number related to a side degree is deemed to be symbolic and esoteric in nature, and not related to rank.

reply to post by Skyfloating

It is universally understood that the Supreme refers to the source/cause of all-that-is, without further labels attached.

So what we're saying here is that when a man enters the lodge, looking to become a "better" man, by taking his degrees first of all he is taken into a side room where another mason explain that when you're asked if you believe in a supreme being what we really mean is that you believe that something caused all that is!!? I didn't know the masons talked in tongues?
What other verbal shinanigans do the masons get up to? When we say breakfast we actually mean supper! When we say night we actually mean day! When we say charity work we actually mean a diversion carried out to deflect peoples attention from our strange garb and weird rituals. . .!
Come on, it doesn't matter if a person is being asked whether he believes in a supreme being in a masonic lodge, the bar at his local hostelry or a church! It's a simple question which has a simple yes or no answer. You believe or you don't.

reply to post by 7redorbs


when you are raised to the 3rd degree you are told that you are as much of a mason as any man in that room. There is no requirement to gain any of the side degrees. there is no degree in the blue lodge (what we mean when we say "regular masonry") higher than the 3rd degree. In essence, all master masons are 3rd degree and if somebody happens to be a 32nd degree mason, he is a 3rd degree master mason, and a 32nd degree Scottish Rite mason. Or a 17th degree York Rite mason. Or a 99th degree Memphis mason. there is no hierarchy in the lodge other than the Master who is in charge of the lodge for that year, then the Grand lodge officers. Each lodge has a DDGM District deputy grand master. that person is elected as well and travels to all lodges in his district to help with questions, and oversee the degrees to ensure they are done properly. The DDGM is a respected position and is an honor to become one, but one only need be a 3rd degree master mason to hold that title. The same as Grand master. The GM is at the state level and elected once a year.

Originally posted by Mintwithahole.
It's a simple question which has a simple yes or no answer. You believe or you don't.

Thats right. So thats clarified then.

Originally posted by Skyfloating

Originally posted by Mintwithahole.
It's a simple question which has a simple yes or no answer. You believe or you don't.

Thats right. So thats clarified then.

Yes it has. If a satanist wanted to join the masons he could reply yes to the question of whether he believed in a supreme being without lieing.

Originally posted by Mintwithahole.

Originally posted by Skyfloating

Originally posted by Mintwithahole.
It's a simple question which has a simple yes or no answer. You believe or you don't.

Thats right. So thats clarified then.

Yes it has. If a satanist wanted to join the masons he could reply yes to the question of whether he believed in a supreme being without lieing.

Yes, you are correct but you fail to realize that it is still the Lodges decision whether or not the man will be accepted. At that point one blackball would mean denial of membership.

reply to post by Mintwithahole.


No, because satanists do not believe that satan is a supreme being.

Real satanists consider themselves atheists and believe that 'satan' is merely symbolic of certain human traits.

The other type are really anti-God or anti-Christian, but also don't see satan as the supreme being.

[edit on 1/9/2009 by Saurus]

reply to post by Mintwithahole.


Freemasonry uses universally acknowledged definitions. In this sense Supreme Being would be God, Allah, Krishna, Yaweh, Creator-of-all, Source-of-all, etc. The concept "Satan" is a Christian concept and does not count as "Supreme Being".

reply to post by Mintwithahole.


Furthermore, self-proclaimed "satanists" are usually of the adolescent-rebellious type and I doubt they would find any joy in kissing a bible (which is done at masonic initiation) or having the discipline to do memory-work.

reply to post by Level_Head

But he's not going to come right out and say it is he? Outwardly he , the satanist, would look just like any other potential mason so there would be no reason to black ball him. And that's really the point I'm getting at. Masons seem so sure that there aren't any bad eggs within the fraternity and that all masons are on the same page so to speak. I think they are just as likely to attract people with strange beliefs simply because such people would be attracted to the masons due to the secrecy aspect and the links (unfounded maybe) to Lucifer.

reply to post by Skyfloating

Memory work!!! Oh come on, now we're saying that all satanists must be morons? This from a mason who should readily understand, being a mason, the dangers of jumping to unfounded conclusions!!!

reply to post by Mintwithahole.


You are thinking about Freemasonry from a Christian perspective.

As Skyfloating mentioned, satan is a christian concept.

Most masons are not Christian, and therefore have no interest nor links to satan, and do not even believe in satan.

reply to post by Mintwithahole.


Before he even steps in the door for his initiation, there is an investigation committee who should have visited the candidate and asked a few questions which would have found this out long before it got to this stage. If somebody outright lied about their beliefs, I suppose they could gain admission, but they would not like what they find. It sadly is just like we keep saying it is. there is no sooper seekret Satan worship or even a mention of Lucifer. Just a group of guys trying to help each other be better men. Nothing more, nothing less.

Originally posted by Saurus
I think the key to understanding why 3° is the top degree in Freemasonry is that any other number related to a side degree is deemed to be symbolic and esoteric in nature, and not related to rank.

That last bit 'any other number related to a side degree is deemed to be symbolic and/or esoteric in nature, and not related to rank.

As I said, it is my belief that rank may be much of an illusion; for a society of esoteric 'practice' (is that the right word?), one should not be surprised if meanings and agendas were... at for lack of a better word, less material in their nature - as much of 'magick' or 'occultism' 'symbolism' and the 'occult' could be considered quite an unscientific, or immaterial realm - and perhaps no matter what degree the mason is, or is not, or his associations - the definition of order in immaterial ideology may not carry over from conventionally accepted scientific (materialism) culture.

The question is, what influence does rank have over Agenda, and what influence does perception have over order.. these are good questions no?

Whether freemasons are 'evil' or not, will not save anyone the time or their soul if we are intellectually unprepared or unfamiliar with situations that present themselves.

The question i'm asking myself is where is this conversation going.. I don't like the fact I feel like i'm arguing for against rank as a definitive thing, or orders beyond 3rd degree as a definitive rank, in case anyone did miss that, I have not stated this... I think to the contrary that if this intellectual exchange turned into a 'does rank reflect power' sort of thing, as i said before, we would be grossly underestimating the complexity of reality, and in the freemason equation, most possibly, and in some cases definately there are more mystical and surprising realms of possibility that cannot, and often (including in masonry) do not apply to the majority of cultures perceptions of reality.

I think perception is a key to reality, here. Not rank.. it's never that simple, is it?

A

Originally posted by Mintwithahole.
Yes it has. If a satanist wanted to join the masons he could reply yes to the question of whether he believed in a supreme being without lieing.

There also comes a point in the ritual where the Worshipful Master asks, "In whom do you put your trust?"

The candidate's answer should be, "God."

If it is not then he is led from the lodge without any further ceremony and his initiation is ended. This happened in my lodge once as the candidate did not want to answer the question. He was returned to the preparation room and once he was dressed we resumed the ritual for the other candidates.

Originally posted by Mintwithahole.
reply to post by Skyfloating

 

Memory work!!! Oh come on, now we're saying that all satanists must be morons? This from a mason who should readily understand, being a mason, the dangers of jumping to unfounded conclusions!!!

would you spend weeks trying to memorize a bunch of stuff that you had no interest in? I don't care if you are a mensa grad, boaring is boaring no matter how smart or dumb you are.

Originally posted by network dude

Originally posted by Mintwithahole.
reply to post by Skyfloating

 

Memory work!!! Oh come on, now we're saying that all satanists must be morons? This from a mason who should readily understand, being a mason, the dangers of jumping to unfounded conclusions!!!

would you spend weeks trying to memorize a bunch of stuff that you had no interest in? I don't care if you are a mensa grad, boaring is boaring no matter how smart or dumb you are.

They wouldn't be there if they weren't interested in becoming a mason would they? Augustus raises another point about having to actually name their supreme being as "God." So at this point I stand corrected and the satanist would indeed have to lie to worm his way into the lodge.
Also, Augustus, why did the guy who refused to say the word, god, have to get dressed? Are you naked during these rituals?