Independent Investigation Into Pentagon Attack Yields Alarming Information

reply to post by mmiichael

Originally posted by mmiichael

Originally posted by scott3x
don't you see how many people here have questioned that version of events? jthomas, atleast, has the good sense to rarely if ever claim to have proof for his assertions, but by saying "without any question", you are essentially implying you have proof. Do you?

Originally posted by mmiichael
A warehouse of evidence, recordings, testimony - largely from the general public - all demonstrate that clearly and unambiguously.

Nothing beyond speculation and attempts at manipulating anecdotal information to indicate otherwise have emerged in 8 years.

I strongly disagree with the above. Perhaps you'd like to go over some of this alleged evidence?

On this board alone there are tens of thousands of posts providing specifics of the Pentagon crash. Many links have been provided on this thread. There are thousands of relaible sources on the Internet. Few things in history have been reconstructed in such detail.

Perhaps there are tens of thousands of posts providing specifics of the pentagon crash here. But most of what I've seen here points towards the official story being false, not true. And while I'm not sure as to the number, I certainly agree with you that there are reliable sources on the Internet in regards to what happened at the pentagon; but again, I believe they point towards the same conclusion.

Originally posted by mmiichael
If people are of the mind to dismiss everything that has documented, then nothing will convince them. You need convincing, you can phone any of a dozen labs that analyzed the remains and DNA recovered and probably talk to an actual person who worked on it.

I believe I have already heard that the people who analyzed the DNA have stated that they got it from the FBI. I certainly admit that the DNA may actually be from the people who were allegedly on Flight 77. The question is, where did the FBI acquire this DNA? I'm not sure if this was the item that was allegedly found in 2 different locations or if that was something else, but I distinctly remember it allegedly being found at the same place that a fireball allegedly broke out at the E ring; and SPreston demonstrated how DNA doesn't do well with heat.

Originally posted by mmiichael
But if someone wants to accept the Internet circulating disinformation and totally unfounded speculations out there, nothing I say will dissuade them.

If you really are concerned, dip into the mass of data on this event and then provide your personal list of discrepancies. If you really think there's some massive cover-up involving thousands of people, government and private citizens, colluding on mass murder and withholding evidence, you have to show something tangible that substantiates your claim.

I'm not sure how many people would have had to have been involved. I certainly believe that Rumsfeld, Cheney and Bush were involved, but after that I'm really not sure how many more people would have been necessary to pull this off. I have also recently heard about some people who were allegedly at the airport where the plane that allegedly (I use allegedly here for your sake) flew over the pentagon landed that have been getting killed suspiciously; perhaps they knew a little too much? You may ask for sources and at this point, I don't have them. There's just so much information and there's a limit to how much any individual can remember. But if I find that information, would you like to see it?

[edit on 29-9-2009 by scott3x]

Originally posted by scott3x
I'm not sure how many people would have had to have been involved. I certainly believe that Rumsfeld, Cheney and Bush were involved, but after that I'm really not sure how many more people would have been necessary to pull this off. I have also recently heard about some people who were allegedly at the airport where the plane that allegedly (I use allegedly here for your sake) flew over the pentagon landed that have been getting killed suspiciously; perhaps they knew a little too much? You may ask for sources and at this point, I don't have them. There's just so much information and there's a limit to how much any individual can remember. But if I find that information, would you like to see it?

While there's no doubt Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld are up to their ears in collusion, duplicity, withholding vital information - and in fact I have a pretty clear picture - the actual mechanics of the attacks happened as reported and confirmed in the investigation. Hijaacked planes flown to tatgets.

The world we are in is not like a James Bond movie. If super-villains were to try and pull off elaborate deceptions involving thousands of death and high technology it could not be hidden. When you add in the testimony and confessions from people in the Middle East directly involved, it's hard to imagine a scheme that would utilize thousands not only in the US but a dozen non-cooperative countries.

The investigation afterward focused on details to fully understand how the devastation occurred. No one felt it necessary to prove the destruction was as seen, any more than they have to prove the causes of destruction when New Orleans was hit by Katrina.

There is a popular subculture trying to contrive scenarios of US admin planning and direct involvement in what happened on 9/11. Stories are reported on the Internet and circulate like wildfire. They inevitably prove to be baseless, often pure invention. When the anecdotes and allegations are weighed against the vast and consistent hard data gathered by investigators, journalists, enthusiasts worldwide, they look foolish at best, possibly malign in intent.

The US admin was and is capable of tremendous deception and self-serving actions. But there is no question the country was succesfully attacked by foreign nationals attempting to do as much destruction as they could.

To avoid coming to terms with that is sheer denial.


Mike

reply to post by mmiichael

Originally posted by mmiichael

Originally posted by scott3x
I'm not sure how many people would have had to have been involved. I certainly believe that Rumsfeld, Cheney and Bush were involved, but after that I'm really not sure how many more people would have been necessary to pull this off. I have also recently heard about some people who were allegedly at the airport where the plane that allegedly (I use allegedly here for your sake) flew over the pentagon landed that have been getting killed suspiciously; perhaps they knew a little too much? You may ask for sources and at this point, I don't have them. There's just so much information and there's a limit to how much any individual can remember. But if I find that information, would you like to see it?

While there's no doubt Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld are up to their ears in collusion, duplicity, withholding vital information - and in fact I have a pretty clear picture - the actual mechanics of the attacks happened as reported and confirmed in the investigation. Hijaacked planes flown to targets.

Can you atleast link to your alleged evidence that the plane that approached the pentagon actually hit it?

Originally posted by mmiichael
The world we are in is not like a James Bond movie. If super-villains were to try and pull off elaborate deceptions involving thousands of death and high technology it could not be hidden.

It isn't, to those who have are willing to believe that elements within their own government could have orchestrated such events and have done enough research on the matter. I'm not sure where you are in regards to having an open mind, but I definitely believe that you still have a ways to go when it comes to critically examining the evidence.

Originally posted by mmiichael
When you add in the testimony and confessions from people in the Middle East directly involved, it's hard to imagine a scheme that would utilize thousands not only in the US but a dozen non-cooperative countries.

I have never said that some within the middle east weren't involved. But yes, I do indeed believe that people in the US as well as in other countries, were involved; at present, the countries I believe were involved are Israel, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. I honestly haven't seen any evidence linking Afghanistan, although I do believe that the Taliban were given a chance to 'co-operate' with certain oil interests; they refused and the gauntlet descended.

Originally posted by mmiichael
The investigation afterward focused on details to fully understand how the devastation occurred. No one felt it necessary to prove the destruction was as seen, any more than they have to prove the causes of destruction when New Orleans was hit by Katrina.

There you are mistaken. Many people -do- believe that what happened at New Orleans was not the same thing as what happened during 9/11. However, in both cases, fingers have been pointed at the Bush's inept handling of the affair. It's simply that in the case of 9/11, it was more than simple ineptitude.

reply to post by mmiichael

Originally posted by mmiichael
There is a popular subculture trying to contrive scenarios of US admin planning and direct involvement in what happened on 9/11. Stories are reported on the Internet and circulate like wildfire. They inevitably prove to be baseless, often pure invention.

I agree that there are -some- conspiracies concerning 9/11 that are indeed baseless. However, I contend that there is also a mainstream within the alternate theory movement and these mainstream theories are fairly consistent. Admittedly, there is still some debate as to what happened in regards to the pentagon attack, but even detractors of the no plane impact theory, such as Victoria Ashley, have acknowledged that this theory has eclipsed the plane impact theory within the truth movement. And I contend that this dominant position is getting stronger.

Originally posted by mmiichael
When the anecdotes and allegations are weighed against the vast and consistent hard data gathered by investigators, journalists, enthusiasts worldwide, they look foolish at best, possibly malign in intent.

michael, it's easy to claim that the above. I could say the same thing for my position, but we wouldn't be accomplishing anything. I suggest that we try to focus on the alleged evidence.

Originally posted by mmiichael
The US admin was and is capable of tremendous deception and self-serving actions. But there is no question the country was succesfully attacked by foreign nationals attempting to do as much destruction as they could.

I agree that foreign nationals were involved. But they're not the ones who issued orders shortly before 9/11 to have all authority for shoot downs redirected to the top brass, nor were they the top brass themselves, who were mysteriously unavailable during that crucial time. Shortly after 9/11, those 'only the top brass can shoot down planes' order was quietly relenquished. I also sincerely doubt that they had the means to plant explosives at the Twin Towers, WTC 7 and the Pentagon as well. And why do you suppose it is that Bush and Cheney would only testify before the 9/11 commission together, behind closed doors, with no recordings of the event allowed?

[edit on 29-9-2009 by scott3x]

Originally posted by scott3x
Can you atleast link to your alleged evidence that the plane that approached the pentagon actually hit it?

Without wanting to appear avoiding something, I am not a broker for all information online that provides details of what happnend on 9/11. There are people who are experts and have comprehensive knowledge. A member using the name "Reheat" on this board has extensive flying background and have investigated thoroughly. I suggest you go to his profile and look at the threads wherein he demolishes the notions of flyovers and other wild speculations.

I have never said that some within the middle east weren't involved. But yes, I do indeed believe that people in the US as well as in other countries, were involved; at present, the countries I believe were involved are Israel, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. I honestly haven't seen any evidence linking Afghanistan, although I do believe that the Taliban were given a chance to 'co-operate' with certain oil interests; they refused and the gauntlet descended.

Without wanting to go into any depth here, we now know the plotters, financiers, trainers and facilitators of 9/11. A collaboration of wealthy individuals, militaries, intelligence services, in half a dozen Middle East countries, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Turkey mostly.

While Russian, Israeli, German, British intelligences services had pieces of the puzzle, and in fact alerted their counterparts in the US, the information was neglected, caught up in agency feuding, or undervalued. These are among the many things that need to be addressed.

But as I've said so many times, the actual attacks themselves were executed as reported and follow-up investigations have verified. If there is contradictory evidence of any weight, it hasn't surfaced in 8 years. And many have searched far and wide.


Mike

Originally posted by mmiichael
Without wanting to appear avoiding something, I am not a broker for all information online that provides details of what happnend on 9/11.

We know that, mmiichael. You're not able to support your claim that passenger bodies were found strapped to airline seats, so we don't expect you to know anything really.

Originally posted by mmiichael
There are people who are experts and have comprehensive knowledge. A member using the name "Reheat" on this board has extensive flying background and have investigated thoroughly.

Is this the same Reheat who also claimed that the bulk of the plane buried itself at Shanksville? Of course, he stated it without any proof.

I won't go any further, as this isn't a Shanksville thread.

Originally posted by tezzajw
You're not able to support your claim that passenger bodies were found strapped to airline seats, so we don't expect you to know anything really.

Thinking that typing questions like "where are the pictures of passengers strapped into seats" is a typical demonstration of your inability to deal with reality. And the inability to even read the messages on this thread.

The old Truther avoidance manta "where is the proof" doesn't work with me or anyone with half a brain.

Where is your proof the plane and passengers that left Dulles airport were not in the wreckage? Where is your proof that radar controllers, passersby, DNA analysts, police, firemen, volunteers - are all lying?

When you are able to provide a shred of proof for any of the wonky theories you so desperately want to buy into, you might have a leg to stand on.


[edit on 29-9-2009 by mmiichael]

They set their pentagram on fire, and held the sacrifice at the World Trade Center. It is of the highest concern that everyone remember how evil the elite savages are.

Originally posted by mmiichael
Thinking that typing questions like "where are the pictures of passengers strapped into seats" is a typical demonstration of your inability to deal with reality.

mmiichael, I really don't mind which way you want to try and prove your claim, but so far - you've failed. If you feel that producing pictures of passengers strapped to airline seats, will assist your proof, then that's for you to decide.

Originally posted by mmiichael
Where is your proof the plane and passengers that left Dulles airport were not in the wreckage? Where is your proof that radar controllers, passersby, DNA analysts, police, firemen, volunteers - are all lying?

Huh? Where did I claim any of this? Seems to me like you're asking for negative proof - again. Logically devoid statements like that won't help your cause.

mmiichael, your incorrect assumptions are obviously showing how rattled you are and how incoherent your thought process is.

All that I have done is to ask you to support your claim that passenger bodies were found strapped to airline seats. You've failed to do this.

Originally posted by mmiichael
When you are able to provide a shred of proof for any of the wonky theories you so desperately want to buy into, you might have a leg to stand on.

Please quote me and show me the wonky theories that I have bought in to.

Your desperate attempt to attribute statements to me - that I have never made - is a sign of your inability to comprehend your own shortcomings in this thread.

Originally posted by tezzajw
All that I have done is to ask you to support your claim that passenger bodies were found strapped to airline seats. You've failed to do this.

You don't read.

I said 'weedwhacker' posted information on passengers strapped into seats. And I said go find it. It was earlier today.

Instead of commenting, you just go on and on and on and on.

Don't reply to anything I type any more. Insults from you I consider a compliment. But don't insult the intelligence of everyone who has the misfortune of seeing you dribbling.

Originally posted by weedwhacker

"When Williams discovered the scorched bodies of several airline passengers, they were still strapped into their seats. The stench of charred flesh overwhelmed him.

'It was the worst thing you can imagine,' said Williams, whose squad from Fort Belvoir, Va., entered the building, less than four hours after the terrorist attack. 'I wanted to cry from the minute I walked in. But I have soldiers under me and I had to put my feelings aside.'
Rescue Commander U.S. Army Staff Sgt. Mark Williams

Does this man not exist? Is his statement a lie?

SO...it comes down to FINDING Sgt. Williams, and asking him again to recount his memory of being there. CHECKING his Army records to see if they indicate WHERE he was that day, to verify his authenticity.

THAT is how you conduct a proper investigation and draw conclusions...not from biased conspiracy sites on the Intertubes....

[..]

"I did see airplane seats and a corpse still strapped to one of the seats."
Capt. Jim Ingledue , Virginia Beach Fire Dept

from the JREF forum...from about one year ago

(from poster Alt+F4)

(there was a link here, not working...will search for it)

A multi-disciplinary team of more than 50 forensic specialists, scientists and support personnel from the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology (AFIP) played a major role in one of the most comprehensive forensic investigations in United States history following the September 11, 2001 terrorist attack at the Pentagon in Virginia, just outside Washington, DC.

Code-named "Operation Noble Eagle," AFIP’s team of forensic pathologists, odontologists, a forensic anthropologist, DNA experts, investigators and support personnel worked for over two weeks at the Dover Air Force Base Port Mortuary at Dover, Delaware to identify the 188 victims of the attack. "Our staff represented every branch of the service," said AFIP Director Glenn N. Wagner, CAPT, MC, USN, who served as senior officer during the operation.


Why don't the conspiracy liars just contact a few of the folks mentioned in this report? Why not drop by any Metro D.C. fire house and interview a few of the firefighter that saw the bodies?

As for the FBI, why are they lying when they say they saw AA77 passenger bodies at the Pentagon but telling the truth when know the "real reasons" OBL isn't on the most wanted list?

Good points, and good questions.......

M


[edit on 30-9-2009 by mmiichael]

Originally posted by mmiichael
Before you start on your accusations, where is your shred of proof Flight 77 didn't hit the Pentagon with passengers in it?

Negative Proof

en.wikipedia.org...

Originally posted by pteridine
Strange that there are photographs of the bodies that you say were completely destroyed that were identified by the DNA that you say was also completely destroyed.

Where?

Originally posted by mmiichael
If you really are concerned, dip into the mass of data on this event

I really appreciate the fact that we can both agree people should research this "event" themselves...

There are so many anomalies and oddities surrounding this event and I certainly don't fully understand it.

Originally posted by mmiichael
you have to show something tangible that substantiates your claim.

I couldn't agree more, unfortunately we may never know exactly what happened at the pentagon...

It's a real shame there aren't any videos...besides that one that doesn't show an airplane...

Originally posted by Jezus
It's a real shame there aren't any videos...besides that one that doesn't show an airplane...

We know about the events of 5000 years of history without videos or some website telling us.

We know a plane took off with passengers from an airport and a little over an hour later it crashed into the Pentagon. The wreckage and bodies were found inside.

Videos can be faked and if the US military chose to do so it could be done. Except no one really has to prove something that's known beyond a reasonable doubt.

A recovered black box, tons of wreckage, dead bodies with matching DNA along with hundreds of witnesses preclude anything else.

Anyone wanting to claim otherwise has a serious burden of proof showing something else happened, and that all the information from all sources have been falsified.

Have you got video evidence of something else?

Mike





[edit on 30-9-2009 by mmiichael]

Originally posted by mmiichael
no one really has to prove something that's known beyond a reasonable doubt.

No one has to prove the official story true because everyone already knows it's true...

Originally posted by mmiichael
A recovered black box, tons of wreckage, dead bodies with matching DNA along with hundreds of witnesses preclude anything else.

There is tons of evidence for the official story...

Originally posted by mmiichael
Anyone wanting to claim otherwise has a serious burden of proof showing something else happened, and that all the information from all sources have been falsified.

Anyone who doesn't consider the evidence for the official story adequate needs to prove something else happened...

Any evidence that something else happened is fake...

Originally posted by mmiichael
I said 'weedwhacker' posted information on passengers strapped into seats. And I said go find it. It was earlier today.

No, mmiichael. What weedwhacker posted was an unconfirmed witness statement. That's not proof of anything.

You really need to do better than that.

Show me how the witness was qualified to identify the remains? Which passenger body was found strapped to which seat?

Honestly, the standards of evidence that you're prepared to accept for a claim are really pathetic.

You have not proven that there were any passenger bodies strapped to airline seats - neither has weedwhacker.

Originally posted by tezzajw
No, mmiichael. What weedwhacker posted was an unconfirmed witness statement. That's not proof of anything.

You really need to do better than that.

Show me how the witness was qualified to identify the remains? Which passenger body was found strapped to which seat?

Honestly, the standards of evidence that you're prepared to accept for a claim are really pathetic.

You have not proven that there were any passenger bodies strapped to airline seats - neither has weedwhacker.

Let's end the conversation.

Anything will need confirmation. That's the latest desperate ploy to maintain your delusions.

A Youtube video with dramatic music and a hyped up intro assembling a pictures with lots of arrows over a Google map of the Pentagon is your notion of proof.

DNA reports from a bodies in wreckage that matches someone who boarded a plane in plain sight don't cut it.

Good luck in your future attempts to differentiate facts from fiction.


[edit on 30-9-2009 by mmiichael]

Originally posted by pteridine
The heat completely destroyed metal, brick, and almost 70 people? You must be reading those truther sites again. Strange that there are photographs of the bodies that you say were completely destroyed that were identified by the DNA that you say was also completely destroyed. STR is exactly for the type of disaster at the Pentagon. You are 90% bluff, lillydale.

Actually, I am looking at the "Official Report" that it was concentrated heat and force that made that last hole. According to it, the heat was so intense that once concentrated, acted as an explosive and took out part of a brick wall. Look that up yourself.

But uh....photographs you say? Which bodies are those that were not completely destroyed that photos exist of?????

I have been asking for pics like that for quite some time now. I have even asked you. Please show me these pictures.

Originally posted by mmiichael
A Youtube video with dramatic music and a hyped up intro assembling a pictures with lots of arrows over a Google map of the Pentagon is your notion of proof on something.

Please quote me where I stated anything to this effect?

Your failure to do so will be an admission of another of your incorrect claims about me. Similar to pteridine, you are accusing me of things that I have not stated or done. Very poor form.

Originally posted by mmiichael
DNA reports from a bodies in wreckage that matches someone who boarded a plane in plain sight doesn't cut it.

An alleged DNA report of an alleged body in the wreckage does not confirm that passenger's body was found strapped in an airline seat.

Originally posted by mmiichael

Originally posted by tezzajw
Here, mmiichael wants us to believe that there were not thousands of people involved at the Pentagon and that the US does not want to release documentation.

That's right - it took mmiichael 50 minutes to contradict himself with two posts taking opposing views.

Before you start on your accusations, where is your shred of proof Flight 77 didn't hit the Pentagon with passengers in it?

Are you some mouthpiece for disinformation agents and video salesmen?

This board doesn't need more mindless trolls desperate for attention?



[edit on 29-9-2009 by mmiichael]

So is this your answer to contradicting yourself? I am here looking for the truth. The fastest route to the truth is through questions. I will ask you, since you dodged it, why would you say that there were NOT thousands of people involved and that the government does not want much info out there and the within an hour, go back and say the exact opposite?

Before you completely hide and ask me for proof of no bodies, you have asked that, I have answered it. If you want to ask again and get an answer, you are going to have answer a question sometime. I want to start with this one.

Originally posted by weedwhacker
reply to post by tezzajw

 

NOT my job to defend him....but I can see the difference in the two posts, and what he was saying. Can't you?

Here one of the biggest problems with your ANTI-truth movement. MM has screwed up by claiming things are fact and then running away from any question of proof as well as contradicting himself. Now if what he was saying was so vastly different from what Tezza Characterizes it as, why is it that the first response is deflection? He does not even ADDRESS what he is being called our for until after you rush in to explain his bad post for us.

Why is the the ANTI-truth movement so against questions and proof? Why is it that when any of you are questioned on the vast knowledge that makes you so certain, you all jump to see who can cover for each other the fastest? There is no truth to be found on your side or else you would welcome questions and even a new investigation.

What would shut "truthers" up better than a real investigation that answers some of the HUGE holes in the story we have so far?


But hey, get defensive, rude, insulting, and deflect and project!!!!!!!!!! Any good investigator will tell that is a great sign that you are a good honest person by trying to do anything you can to avoid the truth.

[edit on 30-9-2009 by Lillydale]

Originally posted by mmiichael
The world we are in is not like a James Bond movie. If super-villains were to try and pull off elaborate deceptions involving thousands of death and high technology it could not be hidden. When you add in the testimony and confessions from people in the Middle East directly involved, it's hard to imagine a scheme that would utilize thousands not only in the US but a dozen non-cooperative countries.

Ummm..... Excuse me but doesn't the "Official Story" claim that it only took 19 people to pull this off?