84-year old Woman Smashed Into the Ground By Cops

Personally, I've worked as a nurse aid in a Alzheimer’s unit...with 20+ elderly people. I’ve had "steak knives" in my face before. Did I throw them to the ground? NOOOO!!!!! All you have to do is say "come on grandma, let's go finish dinner", take the hand with the knife and remove it. People with Alzheimer’s don't respond to demands or threats. That only makes them feel like they need to defend themselves even more. These cops are brain-dead. There's no way they felt "threatened" enough to justify taking an old lady to the ground. This is just sick!

Some situations SHOULD be handled more delicately than others IMHO. I really believe that there was a better way this could of been done.

Knock it out of her hand?

Have a cop come up from behind, put the lady in a bear hug and have the other officer knock the knife out?

A really big magnet??!

Come on.

But I'm on both sides, here. The cops needed to do something, but taking her down like that was not right IMHO.

Originally posted by eNumbra
If a police officer asks you to drop your weapon; you either drop your weapon or you have it taken from you. This is how a dangerous situation is resolved.

There was a thread on this earlier and the story apparently went that the old lady was brandishing the knife at people. So either the woman is put down physically or she gets tazed. Either way no one would be happy with the outcome, so maybe those people who still ASSUME the police are first and foremost bullies should get the facts and learn to properly assess a situation.

[edit on 8/13/2009 by eNumbra]

I see your point. But try to see mine: A Police Officer is trained in hand to hand combat which provides the trainee with scope to assess how much force is required in any given situation. What I see is a cop who used excessive force for the situation.

Working in pub security in New Zealand as a second job, I've unarmed strong hard men without ever hurting them, it only required quick decisive movement to properly constrain the arm holding the weapon in order to have the offender drop it. The right constraint movement will weaken the muscles hold on a weapon instantly.

Why did the cop not do that? Becasue cops in general have been desensitized to the overuse of force in their line of work and today you rarely see one who can assess the danger adequately without resorting to excessive violence or weaponry.

[edit on 13-8-2009 by Tayesin](Reason:- Dyslexic typing fingers)

[edit on 13-8-2009 by Tayesin]

For what it's worth, instead of instantly resorting to the "OMG filthy PIG!' crap, perhaps you can consider that a rookie cop reacting to adrenaline and someone with a knife, regardless of age, did what her training told her to, and took the suspect to the ground. Overkill? Absolutely. Warranted? Maybe. Someone who is unstable is perhaps a greater danger than anyone without an illness.

The real person to blame is whoever was abysmally stupid enough to leave a women with that disease in a car with a knife. What were they thinking?

I get a bit weary of the instant hate towards law enforcement. What if that lady had turned and stabbed someone at random before she was brought down? Oh... then it's just a tragic accident. But she is taken to the ground before this happens, and suddenly we are living in a police-state of martial law.

/shrug... I think people overreact. She went too far, applied too much force, but if you think you can do it better under pressure, become a law enforcement officer and stop complaining.

Also, this was a very crowded parking lot. There were people everywhere. That perhaps, helped with the officer's decision to defuse the situation quickly.

[edit on 13-8-2009 by fleabit]

Don't f with cops.

it's quite simple. but no one ever learns.

I had to register so I could post here, have read here for a long time but finally decided to ad my 2 cents.
In this instance the officer clearly did not asses the situation properly and rushed to make a quick ending .
Very old woman in parking lot,,, how did she get there? Must be with someone, maybe just wait a bit and see if someone is missing her. Not a direct threat to anyone, bring in backup, keep public away. She was not going to run off, at least not quickly.
I believe a mistake was made to take action too quickly, where some patience would have made all the difference as help in the people with the woman would have come along to help.

I hate to take this out of context, not knowing what went on prior to filming. However, I've been trying to figure out what I would have done if I were the cop.

When the cop gets there she's not chasing anyone with the knife. Not knowing if the store has tried finding her family, makes speculating hard. I can't say this hadn't been done but that's probably what I would have tried to find out first. The cop didn't have to approach the lady when she did. Her family member could have(probably could have) talked the knife out of her hand. The cop should have waited a minute and kept everyone away from her, while trying to find her family. Unless she charged someone, but she's old and on a cane. So how fast is she going to charge. Then you resort to force.

I can't think of a reason to slam the lady unless she's charging. Except for following police training at all times.

If they had tried finding her family and couldn't talk it out of her hand (which it appears the cop tried, for a second). You grab her arm and put her down but not a slam. Once the cop grabbed her arm the cop was in control. She could have put her down another way. The old lady had a death grip on the knife so she had to be put down. But that should have been the last resort.

Busting her head on the concrete.... is excessive force on a 84 year old lady with a cane.

Edit: After some contemplation on the issue as well as watching the video several more times, I have to agree that the way the policewoman handled the situation was poor. Yes the old lady was technically a threat to those around her as she was holding a knife, but the cop used force that was unnecessarily disproportionate to the risk involved.

I agree with posters that say they could have made more of an effort with dialogue and tried to contact a relative. The old woman DID have a knife, but it didn't appear like she was directly threatening somebody with it or holding anyone hostage.



[edit on 13/8/2009 by Dark Ghost]

reply to post by ElectricUniverse


The old lady fell down?!?! I downloaded this video and have watched it frame by frame. You can clearly see the cop put her right leg behind the woman high enough to catch her at her hip. Then the camera bounces up to high to see but within one frame the woman hit the pavement. This video was about 15 frames per second. In a fifteenth of a second this woman went from an upright position to hitting her head.

Too fast for a fall she was whiplashed into the ground pivoting from her hip.

I work with cops everyday. I am a certified Firefighter/EMT and if I was there I would be in a jail cell right now. I would have thrown away my career and my freedom because I would have jumped that cop for over the top use of force on a 84 year old obviously confused old woman.

reply to post by Strictsum


They lady was walking within stabbing distance of civilians. Trying to cordon off an area will draw more attention, not less. She was clearly trying to defuse the situation quickly. I agree that there were probably several better ways of resolving this.

But I also think it was an obviously young cops overreaction, and hardly a "pig" being cruel because they could, as I see a lot of folks suggesting. Why does everyone have to leap to the worst conclusion? Oh.. stupid me, I forgot where I was.

There is a lot of the same comments here, but there are some that I agree with and some that I do not.

I watched the video a couple of times to make sure that I "saw what I thought I saw" before commenting.

First off, the initial blame goes to the family members who left her alone to wander about. And where did the knife come from in the first place? They are in public with an elderly and demented family member. The initial responsibility here lies solely on their shoulders.

As the officers actions, I will agree to an extent that there was some excessive force used, but I can also see how it would be warranted. No matter what the officer did, she was going to get the blunt stick of reaction for taking any action at all. What would be said if there was a standoff of sorts while the cops talked and talked and talked. What happens when that doesnt work? Incompetent comments come flying there as well.
If the officer hit her with a baton or nightstick, boom...flame on baby for excessive force. I havent seen a lot of comments yet on just how determined the old woman was to keep her knife, even after hitting the ground. Add that to the fact that her free hand was flailing as well, and you have what is known as a hostile subject.

I have had to deal with people in altered mental states that were armed and aggressive. Its not easy to remain as calm as you might think when someone is swearing or yelling or just plain ignoring what you say. Sometimes, aggression is warranted.

As for the situation with this lady, I might have taken the approach of pushing her against a vehicle to immobilize her, but whose to say that would have been any more or less effective. Whose to say that would have or not caused an injury and opened up the excessive force vault of comments?

The officer reacted. People around the world can say what they want, but when it comes right down to it, until you stand in the middle of the situation, you can only speculate and comment.

Originally posted by thedigirati
OK I have read thru most of this thread, and I agree on the surface it looks like overkill.

What choices do Officers have

A. Mace (pepper spray)
[contraindication for asthma]
B. Baton/Nightstick/flashlight
[frail bones as already pointed out]
C. Tazer (Yeah! right)
[regardless, one point for being at least smart enough to NOT use it]
D. Physical take down
[least offensive]

as was also stated, this is a NO WIN Situation

Myself, (I'm no cop) would have been a short burst of pepper spray upwind of her.

I work with these type of people daily, they are sometimes cantankerous and get more so during an "episode"; The police are not trained in compassion, nor should they be. Like another poster said if you don't want a brutal response, don't call the police

How about talking with them.

It works wonders!

And people will like you and respect you too.

reply to post by MabyeThisTimeAround


You are taking care of a Nursing home resident familiar with you in a familiar setting. And contrary to popular belief Alzheimer residents still have partial memory, otherwise whats the use for activities to do repetitive activities to reinforce cognitive function. (Do you ever wonder why the Government\facility will spend extra money for activities while every one else is understaffed and over worked?)

Take that elderly person, place her in a unfamiliar setting with many perceived threats and then see how she reacts. Sure you coming up and saying "Give me the knife, Hon" Would work in a familiar setting when she recognizes you. But try this with elderly Alzheimer pt who doesn't recognize you, and your likely going to get hurt.

That and a CNA in a nursing home has a lot more training in working with alzheimers then some so called "pig" who is used to dealing with crack heads and whores. Perhaps you can start a CNA task force to disarm hostile elderly ladies?

As far as the question where are the people who left her alone in the car,,, well that was a stupid thing to do, but I have done similar bad judgment calls in my lifetime, luckily with no bad things happening.
As far as where did she get the knife,,,, I've been meaning to keep a knife or scissors in my car for a long time now but keep forgetting,,, if you get into an accident where you have to get out of the car and your seatbelts are stuck or you come upon an accident where getting someone out in a hurry due to fire,, they would be a good thing to have.

reply to post by msnevil


The Golden rule, friend.

The officer needs to respect people as people.

I know. I have been there. Read my previous posts in this thread.

Originally posted by Lemon.Fresh
reply to post by msnevil

 

The Golden rule, friend.

The officer needs to respect people as people.

I know. I have been there. Read my previous posts in this thread.

All police should respect people...as people..obviously.

And we must respect their orders when they are given to us. Otherwise, your punk ass is getting tazed

Given this womans age maybe she was deaf so giving her orders would not of worked , that should have been considered.

Talk and reason with her?

She is wandering around the parking lot with a STEAK KNIFE IN HER HAND. Her mind is obviously wandering and off in la-la land. You are presuming quite a bit by saying she could be "reasoned with."

Originally posted by fleabit
For what it's worth, instead of instantly resorting to the "OMG filthy PIG!' crap, perhaps you can consider that a rookie cop reacting to adrenaline and someone with a knife, regardless of age, did what her training told her to, and took the suspect to the ground. Overkill? Absolutely. Warranted? Maybe. Someone who is unstable is perhaps a greater danger than anyone without an illness.

The real person to blame is whoever was abysmally stupid enough to leave a women with that disease in a car with a knife. What were they thinking?

I get a bit weary of the instant hate towards law enforcement. What if that lady had turned and stabbed someone at random before she was brought down? Oh... then it's just a tragic accident. But she is taken to the ground before this happens, and suddenly we are living in a police-state of martial law.

/shrug... I think people overreact. She went too far, applied too much force, but if you think you can do it better under pressure, become a law enforcement officer and stop complaining.

Also, this was a very crowded parking lot. There were people everywhere. That perhaps, helped with the officer's decision to defuse the situation quickly.

[edit on 13-8-2009 by fleabit]

I disagree with you completely. This officer was feeding her ego. How about talking calmly to her & asking her where her family was? Maybe ask her if she has a little dog at home? This officer should've called for back up as well as the paramedics immediately without trying to take care of the situation all by her big tough self. Where was mall security anyways? They could've assisted the officer by sneaking up behind the old woman with a wheelchair, then the cop could've simply pushed her into it. The old lady would've surely dropped her cane & the knife trying to grasp for something to keep herself from falling. And once again the world is safe.

reply to post by oneclickaway


Don't think so...?, then go stand in on academy training yourself and find out. Most cops have pure common sense. Your obviously not educated on police tactics. Don't like the way cops are trained then do something to change the training, or go train them yourself if you think you can teach someone how to disarm an armed person.