"Damn The Country, Obama Must Fail"

I think we got a hint of this tactic with Bill Clinton and the Lewinsky debacle. Even then the long knives were out, trying to tear down Clinton regardless of the effect that this had on the country or the office of President. These people are vicious, and seem not to have the best interests of the United States at heart.

I don't know what to do about that. I don't know how we can even begin to fix the system. All I can say is that often such thuggish tactics backfire, making the perpetrators look bad in the long run. In the short run, unfortunately, people get hurt, the country suffers.

Hi all,

this is my first post here after years of really interesting readings... This time I've chosen to post some of my thoughts because it's my opinion that the "lobbysts-deciding-our-future" is a bad (unfortunately not new) reality for all of us in the world: it's not only a problem that afflicts the US. The world is heavily influenced by United States but it's not US-centric.

I'm writing from Italy, a Country that is continuously offended by its prime minister Silvio Berlusconi and his behaviours, a man that needs no presentation for his bad background and present alike.

Seen from the international community as a kind of a pitiful jester, which indeed HE IS, Berlusconi is in reality a man that is killing our democracy day by day. He and his "best friends", currently ruling the actual government, are directly connected with mafia, they are promulgating laws to cut the freedom of speech and the internet. All of this is happening with the placet of the worst president of italian republic that our history remembers: Giorgio Napolitano.

Why am I writing these things? Because we, in Italy, are in a situation that resembles yours: we're without an alternative. The only one that comes to mind (and that is terrible) seems to be: CIVIL WAR.

That's my feeling: I think that with "money" commanding our lives we, the people, will arrive at a point of no return and we'll be forced to choose the most radical way to achieve a new state of freedom.

My hope is for a democratic solution and a new government made by people for people because a war of any kind really scares me.

My humble opinion.

[edit on 12-8-2009 by Emanuele_C]

[edit on 12-8-2009 by Emanuele_C]

heh crips bloods, republicans democrats all the same. just gangs for their time
and age.

[edit on 12-8-2009 by verastyle]

A nation founded on a republic, similar to Rome, finds itself succumb to the problems and tragedies of Rome. The political class of Rome did not care what the Roman people, and imperial subjects thought - Emperors were routinely assassinated by the military for being Vox populi

In the end, Rome fell because of internal conflicts. America is to face the identical fate and death.

The thread is long and i couldnt be bothered to read it all
So, sorry if something i say here was already said..

1 - Yes.. I think limit terms could work..
2 - I think you have to change parties funds legislation.. Quit contributions from corporations.. (In Portugal thats illegal.. there were however some scandals because of "shadow" contributions.. You have to keep it in check)
3 - Quit, by law, the Lobbyists.. I understand it can be a good thing.. But balancing with the risks involved.. maybe the good can be lower (Again in Portugal thats illegal)
4 - This might be the most controversial proposal but.. Create a Public owned tv station.. It might have some risks of government controlling the news.. to avoid that pass specific legislation.. A Public owned tv station would be obligated to advertise also lower parties (given they meet a certain numbers of signatures/members)
5 - Change your model of government to a Semi-Presidential one.. On this model of government, the President is independent of the government, and his task is to check government actions.. The Goverment can then be composed by more than one political party, which will destroy the dual party system, giving chances to more parties.. You see.. It is the presidential model that gives you the Dual Party System.. Because its all or nothing.. On a semi-presidential model, the government is formed proportionally to the votes.. This way you can have governments formed by people from different ranges of political ideology that will keep government on balance..

By the way, thanks for the thread.. Im not American, but made me put in practice some learnings from my ongoing Mst on Political Science

Hope to have contributted to the discussion

Originally posted by JayinAR
Just as an off thought... anyone consider the outrageous possibility that the republicans have their long-knives out because they are starting to realise what is about to come to a head?

I mean Christ, we now have people painting Swastikas on the doors of Congressional "leaders'" offices.

What if this is happening because the Republican party realizes that they f-ed the pooch pretty bad last go around and they are actually trying to stop the coming crap-storm?

Sure, there will be serious harm in this and they won't come out openly (well, Palin sorta' did) because in doing so shows fault of their own.

It is a silly thought... but I'm curious why they are so up in arms.

There must be a reason they are trying to "stop" Obama.

Not a silly thought, rather a "spot on"kind of observation. Old-style GOP is running scared.(btw, so is a part of the Dems...) They suddenly realize that, by making someone else hated, they made themselves even more hated.. However, it will only worsen, for their real faces and double tongues shine thru, and no scare-mongering will change that. "He who plays with fire, must be prepared to sit on the blisters" (free after an old Dutch proverb)

"The emperor(s) are without clothes" The child noticed....

reply to post by Gorman91

At least we are not like Rome during Caesar. We have not yet abandoned our constitution for emperors.

I can't believe you would post this remark, a few short posts under this...

ProtoplasmicTraveler
www.abovetopsecret.com...


Thank You PT for pulling this out of the "archive"...

"Citizens of Rome" need to read the above post as many times as it takes, and research for themselves...that event marks when this all went wrong and what the solution is...

And Infinites post...
www.abovetopsecret.com...

"...History doesn't repeat, although it often rhymes..."

Close enough for Government work...

[edit on 8/12/2009 by Hx3_1963]

reply to post by SkepticOverlord


"Is it too late?"

No, it is not too late to overcome, and reverse, the current state of despair that the USA has fallen into. It will not be an easy pill to swallow, and very unpopular, especially within the lobbyist camp.

ONE solution is to ensure that the elected officials do the work of representatives of the people. Eliminate the lobbyists, whose only purposes are to influence the representatives on the behalf of special interests. If one can not approach a representative of the people as a private, individual,
citizen, that person should be denied access.

For an example of the absurdity of the lobbyist: Has anyone considered the reasoning behind taxpayer money being spent on lobbyists for the Federally funded education industry? How many school supplies could be purchased with the salary that is demanded by one of these lobbyists, whose only function is to obtain more funds for their school district?
Is it a fair and equitable system that dispenses educational funding based on the cost (overhead) of the paid lobbyist? I think not, and the program should be abolished.

The "change" should be swift. To guarantee sweeping change, all elected representatives currently in office should be allow to complete the current elected term, then banished from holding elected office of any sort in which public taxpayer funds are doled out.

There are ways to establish a more rapid "change", but are infinitely more unpopular.

Not all inclusive, by any means, however, a beginning to re-establish the concept of "power of the people". IMO

Originally posted by Emanuele_C
Why am I writing these things? Because we, in Italy, are in a situation that resembles yours: we're without an alternative. The only one that comes to mind (and that is terrible) seems to be: CIVIL WAR.

Thanks for raising your voice, Emanuele, do it more often!

But in America we need a Revolution of thought and energy and action to purge these old, broken-down bureaucracies and failed social engineering networks, which are exactly the same old recycled BULLCRAP coming out of the Obama Administration. This guy isn't offering us a "New Plan," because there is no "plan"...it's a freaking flow chart, it's a list of hyperlinks, it's a hobbled and cobbled and carved-up mess that is going to send American healthcare spiraling into oblivion. Obama is offering us his glib jibes and feel-good anecdotes, but he's misrepresenting the facts.

Most importantly, the American Association of Retired Persons is not "on board" for ObamaCare, as Mr. Obama declared in his scrumptious and keen Town Hall session yesterday.

AARP memo refutes Obama claims

WASHINGTON – AARP Chief Operating Officer Tom Nelson issued this statement following remarks by the President at a townhall event in New Hampshire on health care reform.

“AARP has been working with Democrats and Republicans to fix our broken health care system.

“While the President was correct that AARP will not endorse a health care reform bill that would reduce Medicare benefits, indications that we have endorsed any of the major health care reform bills currently under consideration in Congress are inaccurate.

When the President of the United States gets up in front of a Town Hall and the nation and assures the elderly that the AARP is "on board" with ObamaCare, you know that carries a lot of weight with a crucial "senior" segment of the American voting population, right?

POOF! Not True. AARP says it's not true.

That's really troubling. Makes it sound like the president doesn't know what he's talking about...

Hm.

And I got two warnings and had my numbers cut because I mentioned this fact earlier. NOT COMPLAINING, Bill, but...well, yeah I'm complaining.



— Doc Velocity




[edit on 8/12/2009 by Doc Velocity]



Replaced 'code' with 'ex' tags. Stretching page.

[edit on 12/8/09 by masqua]

You say you want a revolution
Well, you know
You better free your mind instead

Oderint dum metuant (Let them hate me, provided that they fear me)

Caligula's response when advisers warned his totally lost and respect from the Roman Senate was inevitable. One does not need to be a humble student of Niccolò Machiavelli to understand the exploitative and deceitful actions of politics. It occurs to this very present day.

Whether it was Machiavelli, Rome or the British - all the attitude was the same. If we cannot be in power, then no one can. Scorched Earth policy - simple and effective.

[edit on 12-8-2009 by infinite]

So it is the lobbyists who really run the country and drive policies. Someone with access to an awful lot of money stuffs the pockets of politicians and wink wink, their agenda perpetuates itself. Seems like the same old politics and nothing will change it.

Now take a look at this thread. Two hundred plus flags and an unlimited amount of stars and literally hundreds of eager responses. Is this because whatever Skeptic posts is so interesting that everyone is drawn to it? How about when a forum moderator starts a thread? The same thing happens regardless of the topic.

I submit to you that had I started this thread, it would still be empty. I am just a low level member and nothing can be gained from entertaining my ideas. I am using myself here but I do mean all others as well.

Now I am not saying that this topic wasn't laid out perfectly and it makes me think. It is the same formula that drives policies and agendas in the real world. Think about it. Attention is given to those who have the (money) and I see it in almost every aspect of society.

reply to post by SkepticOverlord

Your OP said :
... three of the House office buildings on Independence Ave., the Rayburn, Longworth, and Cannon buildings. Each building is connected by a maze of multi-level underground tunnels which also connect to the Capitol building. Accompanied by a registered lobbyist (in order to have access to the tunnels), I was teamed up with three other web site owners as we rushed from meeting to meeting.

...

It's not difficult to spot the four types of people rushing about in the tunnels below the congressional office buildings ...

Talk about the 'hive mentality' - Holy Stromboli !

This description strongly evokes for me the image of some giant ant colony - the allegory is absolutely chilling !

No wonder I myself and so many others feel our government has become inhuman ... and that we ourselves are feeling more and more dehumanized each passing day, week and month.

IMHO, your OP deserves national attention. For instance as a guest OpEd piece in the Washington Post, Wall Street Journal, whatever ... you should really shop this around !

He, he, I remember a thread I did on who is lobbying for the American people back a few years ago in ATS.

I guess nobody.

Thanks SO for bringing with your experience what we already know.

reply to post by jackflap

You said :
I submit to you that had I started this thread, it would still be empty. I am just a low level member and nothing can be gained from entertaining my ideas. I am using myself here but I do mean all others as well.

I am reminded of the old adage -

Principals over personality.

While I agree that the 'thread-to-flags-ratio' for a given member here averages out in the long run to little more than a 'popularity-rating,' that doesn't entirely rule out the possibility that sometimes the message of a given OP doesn't resonate with the membership for reasons completely independent of the poster's identity ( read : 'member's digital persona' ) ...

Click here for more information.

reply to post by visible_villain


What is "members digital persona" and where can I find it? I am interested in following your line of reasoning. Are you able to see the picture I laid out in my post? I am not disrespecting anyone here I am merely saying that this whole lobbying thing is everywhere.

I think America lost it's automatic respect for presidents during the Bush jr regime. Don't worry about it, it's good that presidents get no respect, especially ones who either havent earned it yet or have already proved themselves to be idiots. Remember that in the Bible, nearly every single ruler of Israel was described as evil or useless. One thing about Obama, I hope he turns out to be good, it's too early to judge him. I am not hopeful though, good rulers are rare.

reply to post by Doc Velocity


Hey, I would love to know how you came to your conclusions. Really. U2U me the way it is done because I really want to know that one. Anyway, I am not sitting on a pitty party here I am merely saying that the lobbying agenda is everywhere. Even here. Skeptic posts a thread and everyone wants to snuggle up to him.

Is that a bad thing that I discovered? No, it is human behavior. I do not want to dominate the conversation, I am merely pointing out a fact. This behavior will not change. It is lobbying at work.

Now, please tell me how you discovered that I am in the "red" ouch.


Edited for decorum and all that stuff.

[edit on 12-8-2009 by jackflap]

reply to post by jackflap

Although Wiki says this -

Digital persona

... (DP) is an avatar, the electronic representation, an information model, of an individual's public personality based on and maintained by transactions or secondary information, and is intended for use as a proxy for the individual. The term was created and defined first by Clarke. Another mention of a related concept is in Neal Stephenson's Snow Crash (ISBN 0-553-38095-8). He refers to the term Avatar, a Sanskrit word meaning incarnate. An individual could assume several Avatars by assembling needed attributes. In real life, the DP, can be adjusted to reflect different levels of exposure.

Often this DiP exists unbeknownst to most individuals. Moreover, many do not even know that this persona is often traded among the various users. People are unaware of the increasing extent of data exchange among organizations. Sometimes the exchange may be carried on at the level of cohort groups and at other times at the level of individual consumers.

Source : Wikipedia

But, I use the term more in the sense of an online 'forum street rep' ...

Hope this helps.