"Damn The Country, Obama Must Fail"

Change rarely comes from hope and desire for betterment. Your system will stay until the need for change is so great that the reaction or evolution (doubt a revolution) forces it to take place. Till then......Your stuck with people politicking and wanting power, which in fact have nothing to do with democarcy and running a nation.

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord

Originally posted by Stormdancer777

For the most part, I encountered little surprise that a site like ATS would be represented at this event... but perhaps some surprise that our representation was better dressed than some lobbyists.

(My suits from my days as an ad exec still fit nicely)

You are a brave man SO,

How old was that suit?

[edit on 123131p://bWednesday2009 by Stormdancer777]

Reply to post by JayinAR

We need no political parties period it should be about find individuals and ability to do the job well. Not group affiliation. Any parties invite this crap to happen again.


Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

reply to post by Djarums


Donald Trump stated that NY would fail if 50 guys moved out of state and he 's one of them. I grew up in Rochester (now referred to as Crapchester)
and it's sad ; why I moved to Texas.
At least here we could possibly secede with 80% of the refineries and our own militia.

This is a fascinating and jaw-dropping thread in many respects. Stars all around you Bill.

reply to post by mopusvindictus


It all would come down to whomever counts the votes.

My2c

On March 28, 1861 the United States Congress adjourned sine die (without assigning a day for a further meeting or hearing, for an indefinite period to adjourn an assembly sine die). In other words Congress went home at the start of the Civil War with no intention on returning. To call the Congress back into session De jure (concerning law and principal) would have required the Speaker of the House and Majority Leader of the Senate to set the date at a later time.

This never ever happened. Let me repeat there has been no legally sat Congress or Senate per the United States Constitution since March 28, 1861.

The Congress was called back into session de facto (concerning fact and in practice) by President Abraham Lincoln who had not the Constitutional Authority or Power to do so.

Legally, technically and factually the Constitutional Government of the United States ceased to exist forever March 28, 1861. It became a de facto War Time Emergency Government a CORPORATE Government operating under Contract Law because at that point the United States Constitution became desuetude (an outdated doctrine that causes statutes and similar legislation to become unenforceable by a habit of non-enforcement or lapse of time.) Legal doctrine says that when something falls into desuetude and continued non-use that it is rendered invalid.

Not only did Lincoln not have the legal authority to call Congress into session under the Constitution, the Congress being illegally sat, lacked a quorum (In law a minimum number of members of a deliberative body necessary to conduct business of that group). A legislative body not meeting a quorum can not vote. The seceding States were only seceding over an unlawful attempt to infringe upon the Constitution and over an attempt to amend it illegally without a quorum and that is what caused the legal Congress to convene sine die. Lincoln’s illegal and dictatorial actions in decreeing Congress in session de facto while in sine die prevented the real Congress from ever reaching a Constitutionally legal agreement to call it back into session de jure by the Speaker of the House and the Majority Leader in the Senate. Thus the Constitution was violated at its core and fell into desuetude.

There has not been one Constitutionally Legal Law passed since March 28, 1861.

When Lincoln called Congress back in to session illegally by Presidential Decree the Office of the President became a Dictatorship (for all you out there wondering why a democratic congress that despised Bush would keep passing all his Bills and requests for money) and began operating under the United States Code of law, which is nothing but Corporate Contract Law, and turned the States each into a Corporation which created States Codes of Contract Law under the United States (the District of Columbia) the parent Corporation.

The original 13th Amendment passed by 12 out of the 13 States in 1819 barring anyone of nobility and title from holding office in the Government (esquires, which are lawyers are one step below a Knight on the nobility chart) and affirming states rights, was quietly suppressed with the current 13th amendment and quickly followed by the 14th amendment making all citizens artificial persons (straw men) and employees of the corporation so that it could impose rule on the citizens under contract law not constitutional law.

However the current 13th & 14th amendment is not technically legal since it was declared by a de facto Congress and not a de jure Congress as the real elected congress was sine die and was never called back into session legally. The 13th amendment probibits whites from owning blacks, but the 14th amendment makes everyone property of the corporation as artificial persons and straw men, not human beings living under Nature's and Constitutional law. But property owned and governed by corporate law. Corporations are legally persons too under the United States Corporate Code law and they and their owners function as our Masters.

The only way the Corporate Government gets away with what it does is as a Government that has been operating under a dictatorship, a Corporate Dictatorship that we are all employees of and we keep submitting to it, and signing its contracts, and individually giving it contractual authority over us, even though every action it takes is as a Corporation and a de facto Emergency Government since 1861.

When the Supreme Court objected to Lincoln’s tyrannical and unconstitutional practices of suspending Habeas corpus (You shall have the body, which is a writ and legal action a person can seek relief from unlawful detention) and arbitrary imprisoning and prosecuting his opponents by declaring his actions unconstitutional and illegal, Lincoln threatened to and then issued a warrant for the arrest of the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court. The arrest was never made because the Army General charged with carrying it out worked out an agreement with the recreant Justice and the Supreme Court has made no attempt to ever challenge dictatorial Presidential Rule by evoking the Constitution ever again. This is why the Supreme Court will never look into Obama’s Birth Certificate.

Lincoln also established the Secret Service which he turned to famed detective Alan Pinkerton to form. The President of the United States is the most heavily guarded and secured person in the entire world. The President of the United States, both present and past are virtually untouchable from a legal and physical standpoint. The only time he ever becomes non-immune is when he disobeys his Corporate Masters. Neither the Supreme Court nor the Congress can touch him; only the ultimate scandal can bring him down (Watergate) or a corporate assassin, Ford’s Theatre, Dallas to name a couple examples.

Lincoln was the first of a long line of Presidential Dictators since and Obama by the way has stated he likens himself to another Abraham Lincoln. Obama’s supporters have been known to chant the Alpha (first) and Omega (last).

Now once Lincoln got this set up and quashed the real Constitution and the real Congress by winning the war, a war that really was for and against States Rights, since they had now all been turned into Corporations under the Head Corporation in Washington, he was killed by his Corporate Masters in London on April 15th as he was no longer needed.

That’s the day as property of the corporation by which we all must pay the corporation. April 15th Tax Day one of those things never allowed for in the real Constitution that ceased to exist in 1861.

That really is what happened, that really is what's real, it doesn’t matter what you morally think about it, or how you justify it, legally, technically the United States Republic governed by the Constitution ceased to exist and became the United States Corporation and whether you like it or not the United States is Incorporated as a religious non-profit of course, not only do the owners (Rome) not like having to pay taxes, they really don’t pay any attention to that separation of church and state matter either. The IRS is a for-profit corporation that you get to pay every year on April 15th even though a Federal Income Tax was not allowed for in the United States Constitution, and since no legal congress has sat since 1861, but only as de facto ones, any amendment allowing for taxes, like all other amendments passed post 1861 are not legal under the Constitution.

Perhaps the most amazing part is that the Federal Reserve is also incorporated as a not-for profit Religious Corporation. The fiat instrument of debt de facto currency not attached to anything of intrinsic value but considered legal tender for all debts public and private is simply just part of a religious ceremony. In reality we labor as slaves for the corporation that earns the real wealth of our labors off of the goods and services we produce as we pay our debts publicly and privately and to the IRS to determine in that process how much true freedom, luxury and comfort our individual labors are worthy or not of reward. Rewards paid in legal tender which is basically script for use at the company store (the Corporations) to issue us goods and services based on rewarding us for goods and services we produce. The more we are taxed for our labors the less the corporation, our owners and Masters wish to rewards us with goods and services.

Lobbyists are pretty much the least of your worries!

My offer to take over as semi-benevolent Dictator for life still stands. I don’t think Rome would mind as long as we continue to pony up every April 15th.



[edit on 12/8/09 by ProtoplasmicTraveler]

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord

Originally posted by jam321
Do you have any opinion or thought on what it would take to turn this gridlock around?

Sadly, the only viable answer I can imagine is a patriot benevolent dictator who takes over for 4-6 years, cleans house, restores a modestly sized republic focused on representation of the people, and passes several laws to ensure it all stays intact before he/she resigns.

This thread is dead on.

I think we can turn this around within a few elections. in that time we can change at least 2/3 of the people in office. That would take people voting ina new direction. Best bet would be a new Party based on these principles;

National Election Day - We need to make Election Day a national Holiday where everyone gets the day off. It would be like a Second 4th of July. By doing so voter turnout would increase greatly. It would also give people the incentive to become more informed on the issues. This is agreat first step.

Election funding - Fund all elections at the federal, state and local levels. prohibit any political contributions. Fund in tranches as certian milestones are achieved. If you support a candidate, volunteer your time - Your $'s are useless. No campaigning allowed one year before Presidential elections and six months before Congressional elections. Equal air and press time for all candidates that advance through the threshholds.

Term limit - no need to add the s. One two-year term and done for both the senate and house and state positions. You can serve the senate and the house back to back. President can stay at four years. People could still be come psuedo career politicians by moving through multiple state levels, but they would be limited to 12-16 years at the max unless they became President.

Eliminate the lobbying - By all means provide a forum for lobbyists to discuss issues, but exchanging of any money or benefits is strictly prohibited. No trips, no dinners, no memeberships, no future jobs or gifts to foundations. Any paid lobbyists would be subject to the Sunshine Rules. I. E. No private meetings with electe officials. Lobbyists would be banned from the Capitol building.

Mandatory Representation - Make it mandatory that members of Congress vote in line with their consituents. To determine this, a sytem would be setup to gauge the public's thoughts on issues. Online voting or the such.

Line item voting and line item vetoes - Everything needs to be voted on one piece at a time. President can line item veto as well. This would instantly remove a huge amount of waste found in these 1000 page bills. It would also force the congressmen to know what they are voting for or against.

Benefits - Give them benefits that the median citizen in their jurisdiction recieve. If the median citizen makes $50K then thats what they make. They get the same medical benefits and retirement program as that median citizen. We can't allow being a politician, to mean a lifetime success and good living.

These changes alone would cause huge change in a short amount of time. Give us party that espouses these views and you will have a party that can sweep the elections and be the majority in 4-6 years. They can have diverse and differing opinions but they must be people who are willing to decide things on merit and not on politics or coercion. People that are beholden to no one but their constituents. Let's start finding the people now.

Edit to remove duplicate post...

Second line...sorry



[edit on 12/8/09 by ProtoplasmicTraveler]

Originally posted by JayinAR
I mean, to quote the OP "The Republicans have their Long-Knives out."

The question is why now would they risk the longevity of the Nation (Damn the Country) to Stop Obama?

I'm begining to think that it is because they see what is coming and are trying whatever they can to oust him.

Don't get caught in that trap. Every current administration 'is the most important and carries with it the heat of intense criticism. One of the major differences between this administration and administrations of past is not just that we have an African American as President for the first time but mainly that the internet is an established social arena for the first time in history.

What this means is that for the first time in history people can communicate/discuss with hundreds and thousands of other people and as well are exposed to more information. This new capacity does not carry with it an increase in human comprehension nor does it necessitate that the people discussing with each other are capable of objective thought.

The conflict in Washington between the players in each party and the lobbyists I am sure is decades old. They just have new tools these days and more people are paying attention.

So yeah...the theme of this thread, in my opinion, isn't that the Republicans have inside information and feel the need to oust Obama. No. It is that the conflict between the parties and on Capital Hill are more of a focal point than a cooperative attitude designed to better the nation.

The conflict between the parties and the overlap into public mentality and subsequent opinion/behaviour is the issue.

Afterall, we didn't see this stuff last go around when we had a leader who's apparent goal was Global Conquest.

As I stated...we didn't see it because the net was still establishing itself as a social arena. Indeed, it is still establishing itself. The people are just now beginning to talk over the dull roar of the Mainstream Media.

As well, it can be accurately stated that the fact that Obama is our first non white President has also helped fuel the social controversy.

But it all comes back to the emergence of interactive media.

reply to post by SkepticOverlord


You confirm to me what I saw since a young boy.

And it is too late. We are simply at a point where the system must purge itself. Through violence or simple abandonment, it will come. I personally see this happening through the military. That the government will get so deep into crap that the military will simply evict them and take over. Not a dictatorship, but a military-sustained republic. And they will simply cut us off from the world. Put a robe over us while their mechanics fix this nation's parts. And during that we will see the worst damage outside our nation. because when we come back home to see the mess and try to fix it, we will ignore the death and decay outside. We will simply not have the resources to fix it.

But there could be a way to fix it without this. If the government can just last one more generation for us to get in, this educated generation, we may see something better.

Regardless, we are in deep crap. and if it doesn't end by the leader's hand, it will end by the people's hand. Just what comes out of it is the question. At least we are not like Rome during Caesar. We have not yet abandoned our constitution for emperors. Instead we see our emperors and use our constitution to destroy them.

Time will tell. Come hither our republic, or we will fall.

I have seen this and I am sad to say that well known ATSers (including myself) have fallen for the bait.

Republicans right now are a wounded animal in Washington. This is a dangerous thing as anyone can tell you. The same thing happens to a chicken that suffers a wound the other chickens will peck and peck and peck till that chicken is dead.

But this wounded bird is fighting back, and hard. It's a coordinated effort on the part of Republican leadership to not let anything this administration wants pass. They have pulled out all the stops on this and they aren't going down without a fight.

So they use what they know will work, lies, manipulation, deception, misinformation, and garnish it with enough truth to make it palatable to people that call themselves conservative. The dumb unwashed masses have fallen for it hook line and sinker.

Meanwhile it is true that it's business as normal in Washington. The real power brokers pull strings in lunches and back alley talks. The crooks are wheeling and dealing suckling on the teat of the D.C. money bag.

reply to post by whatukno


I doubt republics are dying or something. 50% of the nation still calls them self it. It's just that the party leadership is dead and dumb.


anywho, the great thing about two liars is that they won't let each other get their lies through.

I really don't see truth in either side, but this HC bill is lies on top of lies and if it takes lies to bring it down then so be it. Then afterward we can ditch them both.

"Americans" have learned to fight an enemy no matter what ground and techniquies he has employed. You of the greatest kingdom ever seen. The american seed will rush to your arms to the point even you will cry. We have been bread to bleed the supremecy of the soul and its right of passage to a new reality.

No other nation has been tested this way. The UsA it the current de facto King of the world. Call it the last "Super Power" or the remnants of corruption in the highest degrees. This world of red blooded Humans have been decieved and are being led to the slaughter gates.. Wake up...."supressed Yawn" .... Most say that is true but let my neighbor take 8up the flag.. ...Shame on you ...If you were born to watch Television and read comic books and decide on the world's futer. You ignore the path of wisdom and consider y0urselves immature....NO you START NOW.


Best of love and Peace.
Just do it!

People, the power belongs to those who actually create the biggest added value. Today so many items are so complex to engineer and build, like Intel, Lockheed Martin, etc. that thr free market rule- sort out the sucker doesn`t work. That`s why the government is rather sticking with huge conglomerates, than a middle class enterpreneur. In order to survive those companies bribe politicians to have huge orders. Besides huge amounts of workers are involved in those companies. If those complex companies will be not given incentives( tax rebates, etc.) they will simply choose an easier way to make money- by going into service industries. But service industries lower an average hourly payment nationwide due to lack of complex skills and expertize needed. And here is the loop, those companies know it and start pulling the strings by asking more or overpricing governmnet orders from them. And of course Obama is not a real president, your real president is Ron Paul. Imagine me and him running your country and restoring factory after factory, starting from Hamilton watches to Cincinnatti-Milacron, to Studebaker and Zenith Electronics. I would make a revolution in education system and all engineering and complex sciences will have huge incentives. My slogan is- Let`s return America back to the drawing board! We will have to learn once and for all how to build things, how to build quality, products without gaps, products that are purely build in USa, not rebadged imports or generic brands. The money Obamanistration is wasting on wallstreet will be spend on creation. Every single dollar will be poured in buidling new car platforms, designing industrial robots, stamping benches, quality improvement and diversifying exports.Imagine , building a new gearbox, or a new platform or a nxt gen vehicle costs about 1-2 billion dollars. imagine if those bailout dollars were spent on actually building next generation car platforms, restoring MCDonnell_Douglas, building next generation helicopters( I am currently working on RAH -68 Navaho multirole helicopter),it would create millions of highly skilled and paid jobs. In return, rhose well paid people would go out buying new houses Buick Enclaves And Kodak cameras. This is how an economy works.Cheers from Latvia!

Originally posted by nine-eyed-eel
They hate us, they want to destroy us, they want to drink our souls through straws.
And to the question "Who are "they"?", the answer is WE KNOW THEM WHEN WE SEE THEM.
Think of all the witchfinders directing angry mobs throughout history...the convicts recognize their guards in the prison-house of this world.

Actually is worse than that, not only do they hate us, but they hate what we represent, true freedom and the individuality that makes us who we are.

They want us as slaves but we are too many. This is why there is a depopulation goal which had been set up for a long time. When they trim our numbers is when the true dictatorsip will set in.

They are going to try, an unfortunately i think they will succeed, in dividing us and puting us against each other. Dividing the people is how you conquer a nation.

The real people in power have no loyalty towards the United States, or any other country, and what such countries represent, or are supposed to represent.

They will take away the sovereignty of every country, and will try to indoctrinate us, and our children to accept their One World Socialist regime.

To some people this will be appealing, but these people don't realise that our different cultures will be wiped out, or at least they will try to do so.

They have already set up laws to indoctrinate America's children and young adults.



[edit on 12-8-2009 by ElectricUniverse]

Most people feel that there are winds of change, but who will blow them? Because, most online people/bloggers will just get satisfied of posting their blogs and comments. This is not how changes can be done when the system is corrupt and when it controls everything/everyone.
“The revolution is not an apple that falls when it is ripe. You have to make it fall.”(Che Guevara)
But: “Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable.”(John F. Kennedy)
Still, online doesn’t work alone:
“You cannot make a revolution with silk gloves.” (Joseph Stalin)
Even if: “Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent.” (Isaac Asimov)
And that’s because: “Wars begin when you want but never stop when you please.” (…)
But politics must be changed because: “War is the continuation of politics by other means” (Karl Von Clausewitz), and it’s time to change these politics.
However, people must be brave and courageous to blow a war of change because: “In peace the sons bury their fathers, but in war the fathers bury their sons.” (Croesus)
ATS has many thought ATS has discussed thoughts; ATS has come to many conclusions… ATS must plan now, ATS must act… What is ATS all about then? What is the goal for us ATSers…

reply to post by SkepticOverlord


I've read all (to this point) 15 pages of this thread, and I, too must applaud your effort, SkepticOverlord.

But I am curious.


When this apparently, weary and worn,"Guide-to-the Underworld" confirmed your (and our) worst-held suspicions vis-a-vis our lurching government, why did you not ask him the most important question?



Why?



What would compel an elected official (of Either/Any party affiliation) to completely abandon his/her ideals, his/her "vision" of a Better Nation/World, for such a vendetta?


I am not willing to assume that ALL those who seek, and obtain, public office, at any level, are inherently "bad", or greedy bastards.

That would be too easy a generalization; a "cop-out" against intellectual integrity on my part.


It is said, as an arguement against homosexuality being a choice rather than an inherent orientation, that no one would ever Choose to be Gay, given the likelyhood of ridicule, scorn, and ostracizism such a choice would entail.

I think, in many ways the same could be said of anyone seeking to serve in an elected office.



No. There Must be something more powerful. more over-riddingly coercive involved to turn otherwise good folks with a dream into vengeful automatons...if that is truly what they have become.


But what is It?


You did not ask.


Understandable. I'm sure the shock of the moment was overwhelming.

And perhaps, even if you had found the voice to query, it is likely that the gentleman would have no "reasonable" answer for you.


Then again, perhaps the answer would have been too shockingly dangerous to utter.



On the surface, ther seems to be an all-consuming partisan "Battle Royale" in progress, disregards the survivability of the Nation.


But is it just possible that what is actually taking place is much more serious?


We seem all too eager to blame "The Lobbyists" for our present condition. That may be a glimpse at the true nature of our predicament.

Yes, money is at the root of the "evil" that has us at each other's throats.

But I don't think the lobbyists have much to apologize for; afterall, they work for the businesses and, yes, the Corporations, many, if not most of Us work for.

In some sense, their success is our success, however unequally we may share in that success may be.



I think we may be in the first throes of realizing that our nation is at war; a war unlike any we have ever fought before. A war in which we have taken a devastaing blow, which may very well prove to be mortal.


This is an Economic War.


And yes, it involves traditional geopolitical superpowers, and their proxies.

And yes, like in WWII, The US has suffered an all too predictable "sneak attack".

But in this war, the enemy has targeted the very bedrock of our social structure: our ecenomy.

And the effects, as we have seen and are begining to comprehend, are far more devasting than any nuclear fullsade could have been.


This attack has set us against ourselves, playing right into our would be conquerors' hands, as those of us who have the most to lose under the potential occupiers scramble to salvage everything they can for their own survival.

The rest of us are left to wonder WTF.


The revolution will not be televised, to do so would be to admit defeat.

Since ALL economies, even those backed by so-called precious metals, are, to some extent, based on faith in the structure of the econmy, to "speak ill" of the world's current economic structure is to risk that very structure.

Our leaders (our True leaders) greatest fear currently, is that the extent of the damage done will, if it became public knowledge indiscretely, would cause a massive "loss of faith" in, well, everthing.


Down that road lies anarchy, chaos, death, destruction, and our worst nightmares.

[edit on 12-8-2009 by Bhadhidar]

Congress and the President and the Supreme Court are supposed to protect our freedom, not constantly mess with it.

Were you looking for government subsidies? Were you looking to keep freedoms to keep your site?

It is a sad day when the people have to lobby to keep their freedoms and money.

reply to post by seabisquit


It wouldn't you can set up a redundant system through multiple verification centers, you could in fact use every university in the country to verify and validate the votes independently...

It could absolutely be set up in a way that was completely safe

FAR more so than the current system of hand counting using corruptible booths and people







[edit on 12-8-2009 by mopusvindictus]

So I'm a lurker here. I have a friend who links me to hilarious threads every now and again in the UFO/Paranormal boards and I get a good chuckle out of them.

Today, he linked me two threads here that were incredible. One here:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

And then this one.

However, I'd like to comment about something. Political party attacking isn't anything new. Even further, the levels of attack aren't anything new either. You saw the exact same level of attack against Bush, Clinton, Bush, etc. The difference is that we are more exposed to it, or are at least exposed to the slant of it.

During the Bush Jr. years, President Bush was attacked heavily on the things he was doing. The difference, though, is that the attacks came from groups, like CODEPINK instead of the party. The reality is, those groups were funded by the party. Oddly, they also fund the party that funds them.

QUICK EDIT: This is why the Democratic party holds that these demonstrations have been manufactured.

Anyway, what I'm getting at is pretty simple.

This isn't anything new, it's just that we are more openly exposed to it for many reasons.

1. The Internet. It truly started to become fleshed out in the Bush years, but by the time it was widely used, the attacks against the Bush administration from Democrats were so engraved in our heads as normal that everyone just shrugged it off.

2. The media and it's obvious Democratic bias (sans FOX and it's obvious Republican bias).

3. Electronic devices coupled with the Internet have allowed us to gather information perfectly and directly without worrying about having multiple sources. This way, I can record someone saying something on my phone and there would be no way that person could deny what he said.

These three things make it seem as if the Republicans are doing things that are not ordinary and haven't been going on since forever. The reality is that what Republicans are doing is absolutely no different than what Democrats did when Bush was president, or what Republicans did when Clinton was president, or what Democrats did when Bush Sr. was president...

While I do agree that the idea that "Obama will go down regardless of the impact it has to the country!" is extreme, it's nothing different than what happened to the last president. Or the one before that. Or the one before that. Or the one before that and so on.

And, while this may be dark times economically, the reality of the situation is that the media is primarily responsible for it. What was a simple report on some bad luck "Flipping Houses" has turned in to the complete and utter destruction of the housing market, and the eventual dipping of the world economy.

With that said, I do agree with what the Republicans are doing at this very moment. There is no reason to pass this bill, especially when nobody has any idea what it actually has in it.

On top of that, they've stalled long enough for people to actually have the time to gain a formulated opinion on this new bill, something Obama and his administration really didn't want to happen.

So, while the alarming statements of a lobbyist in a time of worry can be worrying, I don't really see this as anything other than the norm. In fact, the only real change I see is in the Internet.

WITH THAT SAID:

A revolution or war will occur in 10 years. Either China will stop buying our debt and we'll be completely sunk, eventually leading to war with China or we'll have a violent revolution. I imagine this will happen much sooner if Obama attempts many more major things in the timely fashion that he has attempted them.

[edit on 12-8-2009 by Credge]