Why I'm Tired of People Opposed to Health Care Reform

Originally posted by vox2442

(I don't have a stake in any of this, I'm just utterly baffled by the resistance to the proposal that I'm seeing on here.)

Yeah I am too. Its the years of corporate media that has brainwashed most Americans into believing that anything for the regular everyday middle class person is evil socialism and anything for the corporations is good for the country.

Its a weird bunch of brainwashed people here in the States and the rest of the world should be afraid of so many mindless zombies trying to run the world.

They will listen to anything fed to them by any corporation.

I dont know how we got here...I guess because I don't watch TV it didn't infect me.

They would all rather spend our treasure on the military and leave health care and education rot.

We may be the most stupid developed nation in the world.

I used to love everything about my nation, then after I became an adult over 27 years ago I got so I hated the Government.

Now I am beginning to not like the people very much either.

reply to post by js331975



You have got to be kidding...

You are talking about the same President who broke EVERY promise he made before his election...

You are talking about a president who DOESN'T GIVE A DAMN about the elderly people, and he has been quoted in these same forums as to how this same healthcare reform, you are so BLINDLY bowing to, and which will not allow elder patients to have surgeries if the government goons decide the surgery or treatment is too expensive, and the elderly person "might" not get better for it...

You are talking about the same healthcare which has been shown to give power to the STATE instead of giving this power of decision to doctors. Doctors won't have a say on what treatment patients can have, only the government GOONS will have such power, and if it is economically viable...

That's just the tip of the iceberg and you want to claim that "people" are not listening to the lies which this president has been caught making ever since he took office?....

This is the same president who said he would bring ALL of our troops home, yet we have been having the largest deployments of National Guards for all states since WWII, or EVER in the history of some states...

This is the same president who CLAIMED that there would be government transparency yet we have seen more government coverups, and even the president stated right on television that 3-4 trillion dollars were lost into a blackhole and noone knows where this money went...

You are talking about the same president who in the same video first blamed the Bush administration for going above the law, and then stated himself that what the government needs to do is detain people just for being "possible terrorists" without any proof of wrongdoing, just if their way of thinking "might" transform such people into "possible terrorists", and he stated that the government needs to find some loopholes to make this a permanent policy...

You are talking about the same president who even knowing that we were in a bad recession he spend more money than ANY other president EVER in his inauguration..

BTW part of that money which will be used to pay for this new SOCIALIZED healthcare comes from medicare and medicaid, from which $300 - $313 billion will be taken from, money which helps the elderly and disabled and which the SOCIALIZED healthcare won't be helping these same elderly people so i wonder how many MILLIONS of elderly or even disabled Americans won't be helped by this SOCIALIZED healthcare...

Yet a couple of idiots want to claim that we are not listening to your demands?.....

You need to WAKE THE HELL UP before you are brainwashed beyong recognition....

[edit on 9-8-2009 by ElectricUniverse]

reply to post by LoneGunMan


I hear ya man. Here is a better way to put it though. I care about them more than they care about me.

reply to post by amazing


It might help in the short term amazing but it is only a band-aid. Our country is filled with child-like adults wanting free ice cream and everlasting summer. The lack of patience, frugality and general self-control led us down this path. Why save for tomorrow when you can charge it today? The battle cry of the captives. We are no longer beholding to the local savings and loan. The government owns the local savings and loan. If you owe money, you are beholding to the government. The bank would take back your car or house. What will the government take back? Did you ever consider that?

Originally posted by mhc_70
I guess your definition of working is different than most. I would hope continually making cutbacks, while at the same time increasing taxes is not what the different countries had in mind when they implemented their different government run programs.

I pay $70/month or so on the national health plan.

I'm in a fairly small city - but we are quite well served. If I need an MRI, I don't need to wait - and I'm out of pocket about thirty bucks. I have my choice of at least three hospitals for that. Medication is dirt cheap. I have not had a prescription that cost me more than $15 in the last 7 years. A cleaning at the dentist costs me $11. Fillings run me $17. A crown - silver - set me back $85. That took three visits. Porcelain would have been about $110. A check-up at any hospital, clinic, doctor's office or dentist's office in the country will run me $4.20.

When I came here, I was on blue cross. Visits to the doctor set me back $120 for a consultation. X-rays were in the $300 range. An emergency trip to the dentist set me back nearly $800. Medications ran me over $100. I filed four claims with blue cross, three of which were denied. I paid them about $90/month for that!

In Canada, I paid a bit less per month as I do here (can't really remember, to be honest) - but I had no cash outlay at the hospital, ever. Except at the dentist, where I had to pay at least 10 times or more what I pay here.

In Canada, wait times could be into a few hours at the emergency room, depending on where you are and what's wrong with you - people in danger of dying get faster treatment than people with the sniffles. In Japan, I tend to have wait times of about an hour for walk in stuff. I've had 3 MRI's here in the last few years, and I have not had to wait more than 2 hours for them. In Canada, because none of them were life threatening, I would have had to wait significantly longer.

These are the two systems I have had personal experience with. They work quite well. Japan's works better, in my opinion - and Japan's seems a lot closer to Obamacare than Canada's does. It's a tiered system. And it works quite well.


When I look at the proposal, I see a reflection of the best parts of socialized medicine in other countries. This CAN work. The socialized medicine experiment has been running for decades, al over the world. There is a wealth of information on what works - and what doesn't - to draw from.

If there is the will to make this work, there is no reason why the USA of all places can't make it work. Having experienced this from a couple of different angles, I can't understand why people would be against it - unless you all work for the insurance companies...

Could someone tell me what is actually in the health care bill instead of engaging in all of this juvenile name calling? Then I can make up my mind.

reply to post by Hemisphere


yeah I understand that. The bigger question I guess is do we need any stimulus at all. How much good is any of it really doing both short term or long term. And then what do we do about health care? Sure we could kick out all the illegals and that would unclog us and reduce costs a little bit ...but only a little. The current system and insurance scams isn't working. So a national system that doesn't take the current systems place but just offers an alternative? Isn't there some republican lawmakers that can come up with a valid alternative to the Obama plan? Isn't there anybody on capital hill that can clean up the current bill and just give us what we need without all the crap added to it?

Originally posted by vox2442

Originally posted by mhc_70
I guess your definition of working is different than most. I would hope continually making cutbacks, while at the same time increasing taxes is not what the different countries had in mind when they implemented their different government run programs.

I pay $70/month or so on the national health plan.

I'm in a fairly small city - but we are quite well served. If I need an MRI, I don't need to wait - and I'm out of pocket about thirty bucks. I have my choice of at least three hospitals for that. Medication is dirt cheap. I have not had a prescription that cost me more than $15 in the last 7 years. A cleaning at the dentist costs me $11. Fillings run me $17. A crown - silver - set me back $85. That took three visits. Porcelain would have been about $110. A check-up at any hospital, clinic, doctor's office or dentist's office in the country will run me $4.20.

When I came here, I was on blue cross. Visits to the doctor set me back $120 for a consultation. X-rays were in the $300 range. An emergency trip to the dentist set me back nearly $800. Medications ran me over $100. I filed four claims with blue cross, three of which were denied. I paid them about $90/month for that!

In Canada, I paid a bit less per month as I do here (can't really remember, to be honest) - but I had no cash outlay at the hospital, ever. Except at the dentist, where I had to pay at least 10 times or more what I pay here.

In Canada, wait times could be into a few hours at the emergency room, depending on where you are and what's wrong with you - people in danger of dying get faster treatment than people with the sniffles. In Japan, I tend to have wait times of about an hour for walk in stuff. I've had 3 MRI's here in the last few years, and I have not had to wait more than 2 hours for them. In Canada, because none of them were life threatening, I would have had to wait significantly longer.

These are the two systems I have had personal experience with. They work quite well. Japan's works better, in my opinion - and Japan's seems a lot closer to Obamacare than Canada's does. It's a tiered system. And it works quite well.


When I look at the proposal, I see a reflection of the best parts of socialized medicine in other countries. This CAN work. The socialized medicine experiment has been running for decades, al over the world. There is a wealth of information on what works - and what doesn't - to draw from.

If there is the will to make this work, there is no reason why the USA of all places can't make it work. Having experienced this from a couple of different angles, I can't understand why people would be against it - unless you all work for the insurance companies...

That may be true for you personally, but when you look at the systems as a whole they do not work as initially intended. There are always cutbacks to reduce costs and taxes raised to increase revenue because governments seem to be incapable of staying within budget and improving efficiency. They only understand spending money to fix the problem.

reply to post by LoneGunMan



"Yeah I am too. Its the years of corporate media that has brainwashed most Americans into believing that anything for the regular everyday middle class person is evil socialism and anything for the corporations is good for the country."

Im just a working man,with a family.I pay for my health care,and I pay for everyone else,who cant afford to pay,and or who is illegal.This is the Patriot Act of Health Care!!!!!.Sure,I believe everyone has the right for health care,but at what costs? My freedoms? The right to have BIGGER Government intrude into my life?The right to have someone who hasnt contributed as much as me,or the next man, tell me, fill my change cup or else? Thats not greed brother,that is reality. Im sure this has been tried in others country's ,but at what expense?If this wasnt a great country,why would ANYONE try to sneak in?If you like Social Security,Medicaid,Medicare,or any other BIG waste of time or money,I can understand your reasoning.Personally I would rather take Gold,than FOOLS gold any day.This Plan is only being pushed,cause ALL the others are broken.They need a new form of Taxation,and a better way to keep track of us,Its simple.


By the way, where has ALL the stimulus money gone??????????????????

Originally posted by mhc_70

Originally posted by ExPostFacto
reply to post by jd140

 

Let me tell you something about healthcare insurance. I used to spend $300 a month for my insurance to cover my family. When I took my son to the doctor to get his required shots it cost me $150 out of my own pocket each time. I thought what the hell good is insurance that I pay for that doesn't cover what I need. I did the math and figured out that I should just save my money and pay cash out of pocket the times that I need to see the doctor. I canceled my insurance.

I returned to the doctor for my sons two year check up. Another series of shots was required. I had no insurance, and didn't qualify for medicare. The doctor gave the shots, and upon leaving I paid $50 out of my pocket. I asked the doctor why this time was so cheap, and they told me when I was on insurance the insurance company would only cover the expensive brand of the shot. Since I had no insurance I received the free government shot and all I paid for was the administration of the shot.

This is why insurance is a farce. They dictate certain procedures that aren't necessary. They dictate certain drugs. The argument that government would dictate to your doctor is a possibility I must admit, but it's already happening from the insurance companies working with all the drug companies to administer their brands of medication at higher prices, and probably unneeded treatments as well.

Just because you failed to find a plan that better suited your needs does not mean the whole health insurance system is a farce.

wow, how unfair and judgemental

I've been working for the same company for 20 years now. When I first got insurance my company used to -pay me- back a little each month because for single coverage I didn't need to take advantage of the all the money the company gave me toward health insurance. Now 20 years later I pay extra for the same coverage. Recently I spent 6 hours-6 hours mind you in the hospital for an emergency, the bill? 12g and in one fell swoop years of banking extra funds into my insurance was swept away and the Hospital and the insurance company are still fighting it out on payment!!!!!

Personally I look forward to seeing the insurance companies having to compete with the Gov because bottom line folks, despite all the touchy feely commercials the Insurance companies are not in this to help you, they are in it to turn a profit and unless you ar sitting on piles of cash you are one real medical emergancy from the poor house.

Originally posted by Helmkat

Originally posted by mhc_70

Originally posted by ExPostFacto
reply to post by jd140

 

Let me tell you something about healthcare insurance. I used to spend $300 a month for my insurance to cover my family. When I took my son to the doctor to get his required shots it cost me $150 out of my own pocket each time. I thought what the hell good is insurance that I pay for that doesn't cover what I need. I did the math and figured out that I should just save my money and pay cash out of pocket the times that I need to see the doctor. I canceled my insurance.

I returned to the doctor for my sons two year check up. Another series of shots was required. I had no insurance, and didn't qualify for medicare. The doctor gave the shots, and upon leaving I paid $50 out of my pocket. I asked the doctor why this time was so cheap, and they told me when I was on insurance the insurance company would only cover the expensive brand of the shot. Since I had no insurance I received the free government shot and all I paid for was the administration of the shot.

This is why insurance is a farce. They dictate certain procedures that aren't necessary. They dictate certain drugs. The argument that government would dictate to your doctor is a possibility I must admit, but it's already happening from the insurance companies working with all the drug companies to administer their brands of medication at higher prices, and probably unneeded treatments as well.

Just because you failed to find a plan that better suited your needs does not mean the whole health insurance system is a farce.

wow, how unfair

and judgemental

I've been working for the same company for 20 years now. When I first got insurance my company used to -pay me- back a little each month because for single coverage I didn't need to take advantage of the all the money the company gave me toward health insurance. Now 20 years later I pay extra for the same coverage. Recently I spent 6 hours-6 hours mind you in the hospital for an emergency, the bill? 12g and in one fell swoop years of banking extra funds into my insurance was swept away and the Hospital and the insurance company are still fighting it out on payment!!!!!

Personally I look forward to seeing the insurance companies having to compete with the Gov because bottom line folks, despite all the touchy feely commercials the Insurance companies are not in this to help you, they are in it to turn a profit and unless you ar sitting on piles of cash you are one real medical emergancy from the poor house.

If you call my observation judgemental, how will you feel when it is up to the government to judge the level of health care you and your family are worthy of?

Originally posted by LoneGunMan

I used to love everything about my nation, then after I became an adult over 27 years ago I got so I hated the Government.

Really? So you want them to be in control of your health care? You must be one of those kinky types who likes being punished.

Originally posted by js331975

You have to question the motives of any group of people that does not want you to think for yourself.

this is the only part of your post i can agree with, as far as the rest, its garbage! i recomend you listen to this part and do some real research for yourself rather than listen to your friend. also, you say your friend doesnt react emotionally, well i disagree. the title of what she wrote makes it easy to assume she was emotional when writing this

Originally posted by otheym
Could someone tell me what is actually in the health care bill instead of engaging in all of this juvenile name calling? Then I can make up my mind.

Here ya go:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Read it and weep.

It's already changed a few of the "Pro-Obamacare" people's minds.

It's not fair to label those at these town hall meets as "mobs", "brawls", or "idiots".

When liberals protest, it's generally called a "protest" not a mob or brawl. If the protest is violent, it's just called a "violent protest".

Im' a lib by the by and real tired of seeing the hypocrisy.

These people have a right to scream and shout if they want to. The same way liberals do. And it's not just people from the right showing up at these meets, it's dems too.

reply to post by js331975




Well if everyone paid the same amount I would not have a problem with it at all but come on it will be people like me that carry the burden. I swear this country pisses me off to no end and especially socialistic dick heads. I work enough over time a year for 3 people and at 16.50 a hour I am not a wealthy man. I put my child into pre school and had to dish out over 3k for it while people that don't even work overtime and more than likely don't even work go for free. All I got out of the deal was a stupid tax credit that will end when She enters first grade. We all know what is going to happen. The crooks in washington will make this bill like 5% of Your income or some such crap and that will mean 5k a year coming out of my pocket while I pay something like 1920 a year. The worse part is I come from a pretty healthy family and I rarely go to the doctor and even when I do the results are unsatisfactory to say the least. So already I am primed to get screwed here. I will pay more for a service that I don't use while these people on welfare that are sick will use it every five minutes....


Oh and I forgot to mention I am a sailor meaning 9 months out of the year I CAN NOT RECEIVE MEDICAL SERVICE because I am to far out ... So in that light please tell Me why I should support this and why it will be great for me and my family. On another note please enlighten me to the fact on why I am a idiot also because I would be at those town hall meetings also.

reply to post by js331975


I just got this in an email and I think it sums up Obamas health care plan nicely!!!


"While discussing the upcoming Universal Health Care Program with my friend the other day, I think we have found the solution. I am sure you have heard the ideas that if you’re a senior you need to suck it up and give up the idea that you need any health care. A new hip? Unheard of. We simply can't afford to take care of you anymore. You don't need any medications for your high blood pressure, diabetes, heart problems, etc. Let’s take care of the young people. After all, they will be ruling the world very soon.

So here is the solution. When you turn 70, you get a gun and 4 bullets. You are allowed to shoot 2 senators and 2 congressmen. Of course, you will be sent to prison where you will get 3 meals a day, a roof over your head and all the health care you need! New teeth, great! Need glasses, no problem. New hip, knee, kidney, lung, heart? Well bring it on. And who will be paying for all of this. The same government that just told you that you are too old for health care. And, since you are a prisoner, you don't have to pay any income tax.

And if we all do our part we can end up in the same prison and have one heck of a social life"

Originally posted by Alien Mind
reply to post by eightonefive

 

Don't even say that the japs have facories over here, of course they do, but they are all in the south, and non union factories which are paying poor bubba 13 bucks an hour

Whats with the hatred towards the south?

You think that we don't deserve to get paid?

We have kids to feed just like everyone else.

Comments like that are the reason there is still hate in the world.

No they are just a union thug that doesn't realize that their number #1 reason for being employed is to make their employer money. These union fools have been duped into thinking that their number #1 reason for being employed is so they can make money. These fools have a bad out look and then they wonder why the car companies are going out of business left and right.............. Oh and let me not forget the hate us because factories are relocating down here because people down here understand what work ethic is and will work hard with less lip for the same pay or less.....

If this has been adrssed already my apologies - but

fact: there is no "bill" as yet - only the democrats proposal - and there are definitely legitimate concerns -

fact: the republicans have not offered their version or proposal - they have martialed all their forces to criticize the dems and to disrupt their townhall meetings where folk are supposed to ask questions and voice their concerns and opposition - without acting like they've been paid by fox and insurance companies to start a shouting match.... If the "protestors" had asked questions - pointed and in depth questions, some of my concerns about the PROPOSAL might have been addressed....but instead I'm supposed to choose sides based on Rush Limbaughs spin?.....you have got to be kidding me - are people really buying this townhall brownshirt BS???? And basing their thinking on some media whore???? crikey we have come low....

I have real concerns about euthanasia and abortion funding and the cost of parmaceuticals and why we pay more than any other country in the world for our medicine..if you scream at the people who should be called to account instead of nailing them with hard questions then you have lost my vote and my confidence in your ability to think rationally and strategically -

Whre is the republican proposal?????? WHERE IS IT? They have lost all perspective - all they want to do is polarize people like me who are genuinely concerned in order to gain back power they have lost - and I'm not buying their crap and certainly not from Limbaugh or fox or cnn or msn - that pig just won't fly.....

Originally posted by realshanti
If this has been adrssed already my apologies - but

fact: there is no "bill" as yet - only the democrats proposal - and there are definitely legitimate concerns -


Whre is the republican proposal?????? WHERE IS IT? They have lost all perspective - all they want to do is polarize people like me who are genuinely concerned in order to gain back power they have lost - and I'm not buying their crap and certainly not from Limbaugh or fox or cnn or msn - that pig just won't fly.....

It is obvious you have no clue how congress works...........the "proposal" is the "bill" and the only thing Repubs can do is offer amendments since they can't get there versions voted out of committee to become a bill.

You are blinded by your fear and hate.