The Rise of the Birther Movement and It's Aims.

Originally posted by deadbang
reply to post by Witness2008

 

I can see your point on the more mundane things like throwing a ball or the jeans he wore etc...nonsense, I agree

However I refer to the tax protests for instance, folks have been protesting taxing authorities since the country was founded...in fact it's a major reason the U.S. was founded...but this time, with this president and his supporters...instead of being patriots for questioning government and it's intentions...they became teabaggers and racists.

I'm not sure I entirely understand this phenomenon, after all he is just a man like you and I, not a demigod.

It will be interesting to see if in 3-4 yrs the liberal agenda is still so quick to call dissenting voices racists, bigots etc...for simply questioning a MAN.

You have a point, however, 'protesting taxing authorities' is not what is happening here. What is happening here is targeting a specific individual and attributing policies to him that he has never espoused and inventing conspiracies out of thin air that he couldn't possibly be involved in.

The teabaggers are demonstratively racists, hypocrites, and gullible. The demonstration is simple:

1. racist: the teabaggers attack Obama for the results of G.W. Bush's actions. They didn't wait to see if he was going to do anything that they accused him of, they didn't need a reason.
   
2. hypocrites: the teabaggers were happy with G.W. Bush's actions. Now they need an excuse to attack Obama, so they do the flip-flop thing. It is one thing for a good ol' boy like Dubya to raise taxes, but it is quite another for suspicious looking guy to not not not lower them before he has had a chance to catch his breath. (there was a triple negative in that sentence on purpose)
   
3. gullible: the very "teabaggers phenomenon" was a Faux News marketing campaign, designed, financed, promoted, supported, staffed, and executed.
   

Sure there are legitimate protesters out there, on both sides of the political fence, always have been and always will be. But this so-called 'movement' has more smell than a dead fish after a week in the sun.

reply to post by ProfEmeritus


Like I said in an earlier post I call it like I see it. What I see at the Tea Bag parties and hear out of the mouths of birthers is hatred and none of the facts. That leaves me to question their real motives.

I doubt that your member name has any true reflection on who you really are because if it did you would have put the clues together as to the truth of this matter.

Here is a little youtube link that will show these people for who they are.
www.youtube.com...
Enjoy

Originally posted by mecheng

Originally posted by Animal
...It is a discussion that supposes Obama is legitimate...

Since there are numerous reports that he was in fact born in Kenya and has yet to provide the long form... You're making a big assumption.

You seem to want a very one-sided 'discussion'.. but I'll play along.

The 'birther' movement's motive is simple... we want, and BY LAW deserve, the TRUTH!

[edit on 23-7-2009 by mecheng]

There's no "long form" for my birth certificate. Mine fits on a 6x4 index card... and I was born in Washington, D.C. My dad doesn't have a "long form", nor did my mom. Our birth certificates have the same info as Obama's does. We are all native born US citizens.

So if you throw people out of the US because they don't have "long form" birth certificates (which assumes that every state uses the exact same form and always has... and that isn't right)... then you also threaten the citizenship of millions of us who live in a state that doesn't happen to have a birth certificate that looks like what the "birthers" demand.

I think they did zero research on the issue and haven't seen any other Hawaiian birth certificates from the same time period.

reply to post by Animal

The birther movement is a farce created to make Obama seem to be an illegitimate leader and manipulates those willing to buy into the lie in order to mobilize the gullible masses. It is a display of how the republican party is interested in party-over-country politics and its desperation for power and control.

I totally agree with the premise of your thread, especially the above paragraph. What I find most ironic about this whole birther movement, is the fact the same media tv talking heads and Congressman who are starting to jump on the birther band wagon, are the same ones who call the 911 truthers "UNAMERICAN, INSANE, TERRORIST " and whatever catchphrase they could come up with to make people scared of truthers......strange....well not so much.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by Animal
The State of Hawaii has said itself the the form provided by Obama is a legitimate copy of a birth certificate and that it is indeed true that he was born in Hawai'i.

No they didn't. They just said that they have a copy of a birth certificate for Obama in their vault and that he is the only one that can authorize viewing it (or perhaps a court order). They never verified that he was an American born citizen.


HONOLULU (AP) State officials say there's no doubt Barack Obama was born in Hawaii.

Health Department Director Dr. Chiyome Fukino said Friday she and the registrar of vital statistics, Alvin Onaka, have personally verified that the health department holds Obama's original birth certificate.


Did you even bother reading that? It is apart of the OPs thread.

Originally posted by grover
He has produced enough to be certified by the board of elections or he would not have been able to run in the first place.

You ASSUME so. What exactly did he show the 'board of elections'??
Was it that fake COB that was on the internet? If they accepted that
then they are idiots.

The proof is that he WAS CERTIFIED BY THE BOARD OF ELECTIONS AS EVERT OTHER PRESIDENT HAS. By your own logic there is only 1 answer. If BO faked his birth certificate and was able to fool the BOE, Congress and the media then

A) there all in on it, in which case you should trust no one and question every single presidential election there ever was.

B) there all a bunch of idiots who are not worthy of their education and wealth, IN WHICH CASE YOU SHOULD TRUST NO ONE AND QUESTION EVERY SINGLE PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION THERE EVER WAS!!

I don't really wish to comment on what I think in regards to Obamas birth origin or birth certificate because it has been done.....my only suggestion would be for these guys to develop a better name for their cause.

Has there ever been a worse name for a movement than "BIRTHERS"? I don't think anyone thought that one through very well.

Even if I believed Obama was born in Guatemala I wouldn't want to associate myself with anything sounding like that. Bizarre choice of title.

Originally posted by Witness2008
reply to post by DrMattMaddix

 

Finally some honesty.

Did you demand to see a copy of Bush's birth certificate? If not why not?

How is it you could not believe an Americans defense of Obama but would believe a Kenyan accusing Obama of being a usurper?

How is it? Because they really have nothing to gain... Little worker bees (peeons in societies, here or there) have an inherent honesty about them.

On character and honesty:
Obama and his criminal thugs (should we recall his former states' , former governor , on attempting to 'sell' Obama's vacant senate seat? He said, "that's the way we do politics and business here in Chicago".) are finally being vetted, after the fact, unfortunately. His criminalistic ties are coming out and he will be vetted completely.

In Kenya, where they likely scratch the dirt for something to eat, are just as proud as any family would be if their 'home town boy done good'. Even in Idaho recently, we saw a whole small town stand together silently awaiting news of one of our hero's taken captive.

Using those verbose character references of individuals and community... I tend to side with the Kenyan's community, official (their ambassador claims Obama was born there and later retracted claiming he thought an interviewer was talking about sr. not jr. Obama) and individual's open honesty.

...Communally and individually there are those who have everything to gain by being honest and dishonest. AND race having nothing to do with their behavior. Just human nature.

With the sheer number of people with a vested interest in Obama, either financially or ideologically, they will go to great lengths to do whatever it takes to keep the entire issue sealed.

That my friends IS the definition of a conspiracy and why we came to ATS.


[edit on 7·24·09 by DrMattMaddix]

Originally posted by grover

Originally posted by DrMattMaddix
You miss the point of birthers...
...Birthers will find another way to compromise his character and background.
[edit on 7·23·09 by DrMattMaddix]

EXACTLY...That is why the whole blithers "movement" is a crock.

You are not upset over any real issue...because there is none....

You are out to trash Obama regardless.

EXACTLY! ... Now let's get back to beating this horse into dust...

But first... here's an inside to the next horse coming for beating into dust...

I'm impatiently waiting to find out more about his alleged use of 39 different social security numbers and 149 different addresses.

I mean, I admit I used a bad social to get my first real job at 16...

Like Obama, I didn't obtain a SS# until my later teens. The job application asked for a social number and I majickly pulled a number from my butt. Got the job and then asked my parents what a social security number was all about.

LOL, the ONLY things I have in common with Obama is getting a SS# in my teens and it wasn't from the state that I was born in... yet, I had an address in the state that issued the SS# and I really lived there.

SG: as usual you have a good point... people that didn't vote for Obama are more likely to be shocked at his policies... What really shocks me is that you don't seem surprised about some of these newer policies? As if you expected this much of a radical departure? Including appointing a Regulatory Czar that the Presidential Cabinet Members will answer to instead of directly to the President?

Originally posted by Animal
That supposes that the STATE of Hawai'i is complicit in the deceit of the people of the USA.

The State of Hawaii has said itself the the form provided by Obama is a legitimate copy of a birth certificate and that it is indeed true that he was born in Hawai'i.

The truth is and has been in the public realm for quite some time.

Complicit, not necessarily. They are bound by laws to not release whatever "Long Form" information they may (or may not) have without explicit permission from Barack Obama.

Confirmation that the original birth certificate is being held by the state is a far cry from confirming that what was offered to the public, by way of a .jpg posted on the web (with editing proven by the exif files) contains the same information that the original birth record contains.

I admit to being a "birther" only because there is still so much to question.

from birthrecordsearch.us

1. In the State of Hawaii, back in 1961, there were three different birth certificates that were obtainable:
a. If the birth was attended by a physician or mid wife, the attending medical professional was required to certify to the Department of Health the facts of the birth date, location, parents’ identities and other information. (See Section 57-8 & 9 of the Territorial Public Health Statistics Act in the 1955 Revised Laws of Hawaii which was in effect in 1961).
b. In 1961, if a person was born in Hawaii but not attended by a physician or mid wife, then, up to the first birthday of the child, an adult could, upon testimony, file a “Delayed Certificate”, which required endorsement on the Delayed Certificate of a summary statement of the evidence submitted in support of the acceptance for delayed filing, which evidence must be kept in a special permanent file. The statute provided that the probative value of the Delayed Certificate must be determined by the judicial or administrative body or official before whom the certificate is offered as evidence. (See Section 57-18, 19 & 20 of the Territorial Public Health Statistics Act in the 1955 Revised Laws of Hawaii which was in effect in 1961).
c. If a child born in Hawaii, for whom no physician or mid wife filed a certificate of live birth, and for whom no Delayed Certificate was filed before the first birthday, then a Certificate of Hawaiian Birth could be issued upon testimony of an adult including the subject person) if the Lieutenant Governor was satisfied that a person was born in Hawaii, provided that the person had attained the age of one year. (See Section 57-40 of the Territorial Public Health Statistics Act in the 1955 Revised Laws of Hawaii which was in effect in 1961).
2. In 1982, the vital records law was amended to create a fourth kind of birth certificate for children born outside of the Territory or State of Hawaii. HRS Chapter 338 was amended to add a new section authorizing the Director of the Department of Health to issue a birth certificate for a person NOT born in Hawaii either as a Territory or State, upon sufficient proof that the legal parents of such individual had declared the Territory or State of Hawaii as their legal residence for at least one year immediately preceding the birth of such child.

This alone leaves much room for a parent to purposely manipulate the system to ensure that their child was granted US Citizen status through the State of Hawaii. And I wouldn't fault a parent for such action.

But the question still looms, under which of these situations are the records that the State of Hawaii holds for Barack Obama defined under?

Originally posted by grover
Yes BUT based on the responses and attitudes of at least those posting here on ATS Obama could produce a birth certificate signed by God himself and you guys would find something wrong with it.

He has produced enough to be certified by the board of elections or he would not have been able to run in the first place.

Well, maybe, but the board of elections didn't bother to stop Roger Calero from running and he was born in Nicaragua. Nine individual states remove Mr Calero from the Ballot, but 41 others and the board of elections did not.

For myself, while I have doubts about the eligibility of Barack Obama, this is more an issue of the rule of law being destroyed, the checks and balances that are supposed to function in this country being declared null and void.

Seriously, we all see clearly how our Gov has gotten "way too big for it's britches" - The Patriot Act ALONE had us all screaming bloody murder.

But to go from the affront of The Patriot Act to an even (potentially) more damaging affront of an in-eligible person sitting in the Oval Office running this country, well that one is just too much (not that many of the other affronts in the past were NOT too much at the time)

The potential repercussions of Barack Obama not being eligible to hold the office of President are so extreme and ultimately damning for the United Staes as a Nation that this issue should NEVER have been allowed to be raised in the very first place.

The fact that it has been raised, and continues to be raised is making the US the laughing stock of the world, which is the very last thing we need to have happen, especially with the economic problems we are currently dealing with.

We The People are *supposed* to be the final line in the checks and balances system. If We The People demand of our government documents that prove (fill in the blank) then we should be presented with those documents.

Since it is only by our consent that any person in any elected position is *supposed* to be allowed to remain in that position.

But it seems that between NFL Football and American Idle & whatever other distractions are thrown at us, that we have forgotten that crucial fact.

So, speaking as a "birther," I will gladly be made to look like a complete and utter fool, if and when this issue is resolved with the presentation of Barack Obama's Long Form Certificate of Hawaiian Birth, ESPECIALLY if the efforts of those like me & especially those more actively vocal in this issue than I, raise the American Populaces realization that our Government answers TO US, and not we to them.

Originally posted by Witness2008
One would think that a birth certificate, newspaper announcements of such, the fact his parents were citizens along with the vetting of a political run should answer this burning question of yours.

Just what will it take for you to admit his legitimacy?

Not so. I, myself, have a Long-Form Birth Certificate that has fraudulent information on it, including both parent's names, and Newspaper Announcements for my birth were printed in Florida, Pennsylvania, Massachusetts, Ohio, Oregon and California. The whole family had them printed - go figure.

My BC is from Florida, and I know exactly how it came to have so much fraudulent info & why.

I am no-one important (as far as anyone here knows) and if it can be done for me, it can be done for anyone.

What my BC does have that IS NOT Fraudulent is the name of the Hospital I was born in and the delivering doctor's name and signature.

That's all we "birthers" are asking to see from the Hawaiian Long Form BCC for Barack Obama

[edit on 7/24/09 by redhatty]

There's no such word as "birther." The term was invented by radical leftists to ridicule those who dare question "The One," about where he was born. There is no such movement as "birther" movement. There are concerned citizens who seek the truth - either in the form of a real birth certificate for Kenya or Hawaii, or an admission of the truth.

This is a classic example of the application of Saul Alinsky's Rules for Radicals to destroy the opposition thru ridicule and lies.

Those who choose to [or are paid to] suppress the truth by denigrating concerned citizens who seek the truth are promulgating ignorance, appearing to be (webmaster decides) contrary with the "deny ignorance" policy of this very website.

How many times does this have to be posted? The laser printed form is what Hawaii gives anyone who was born anywhere and is not the same as a REAL birth certificate. The laser printed form is unacceptable for employment in Hawaii state civil service.

How many times does this have to be posted? Barry Setoro's own grandmother stated for the record that she was there in Kenya when he was born in Kenya, and the Kenyan ambassador stated on broadcast radio that Soetoro was, in fact, born in Kenya and that the Kenyan government is or has erected a marker honoring him for being born there.

How many times does this have to be posted? It's extremely easy for "The One," to pay a small fee to have Hawaii reveal his real birth certificate or whatever piece of paper is on file (ie. foreign birth certificate). Yet Soetoro's handlers prefer to spend millions to suppress those who are only asking for the truth.

If there is a "movement" per se' it's a ridicule concerned citizens directive promulgated by Obama's own taxpayer-funded Acorn organization and their employees.

reply to post by Adonsa


We don't need to ridicule the blithers...you guys are doing a perfectly good job of making fools out of yourselves all on your own.

The right did the same sort of thing with Clinton...remember those videos jerry foul well was hawking accusing Clinton of every crime under the sun?

In the long run it has nothing to do with Obama because he will never produce adequate proof for you guys because even if he did you wouldn't accept it.

You and your so called movement is as transparent as air and has about as much substance...

...you guys just can't stand it when your side loses power and really that is all there is to it...

...just sucking on sour grapes.

[edit on 24-7-2009 by grover]

Originally posted by Witness2008
One would think that a birth certificate, newspaper announcements of such,

There is NO public record of a legitimate birth certificate.
The newspaper announcement had a FAKE American address.
It's worthless.

Jeeeeze .. how many times do you have to be told those facts before you get it through your head and you stop spamming the boards?

Just what will it take for you to admit his legitimacy?

a REAL and AUTHENTIC birth certificate from Hawaii.

Originally posted by Witness2008
His birth certificate is posted all over the internet kingdom.

NO IT IS NOT. There is NO legitimate birth certificate 'posted all over the internet kingdom.' NO birth certificate has been released by Obama. McKinnon admited the forgery and Daily Kos pulled it off line. The other places left the admitted forgery up. Get it through your head and quit spamming the boards with the LIE that his legitimate birth certificate is 'all over the internet kingdom'.

"A Foolish Consistency is the Hobgoblins of Little Minds"
Emerson

.... something YOU had best take note of.

:shk: OY

Originally posted by Adonsa
There's no such word as "birther." The term was invented by radical leftists to ridicule those who dare question "The One," about where he was born. There is no such movement as "birther" movement. There are concerned citizens who seek the truth - either in the form of a real birth certificate for Kenya or Hawaii, or an admission of the truth.

EXACTLY. However, the radical left who adore Obama won't see the truth of what you just said. They invent a term and then invent ridicule in order to stiffle the search for the truth. And you are right ... these actions are straight out of the Obama playbook.

Welcome to 'hope, change, unity, transparency'. :shk:

The point of the birther movement: Get Obama to show the Long Form BC.

That's it, that's all there is (well to me, anyways).

What does he have to hide? And if the Short Form has already been proven fake, then why do you guys still take it as proof of his legitmacy?

Originally posted by theamazing60secondman
What does he have to hide? And if the Short Form has already been proven fake, then why do you guys still take it as proof of his legitmacy?

Because it hasn't been proven fake. Right wing bloggers claim it's fake. The State of Hawaii verified they have the record of his birth and he was indeed born there.

reply to post by Animal

The Birther movement, which I am sure all of us here at ATS have become increasingly familiar with is intriguing to me. It intrigues me not because I think they are onto a true conspiracy where Obama is secretly not a USA citizen but because of what I perceive as a more covert and insidious attack on President Obama by groups allied in their opposition to him personally and his party.

So, how is this different than the multiple movements, support by democrats to make Bush look like he was illegitimate, a crimminal, a monster and maybe even behind 9/11? Why do people on the left seem to think they have a special pass for this stuff?

On Hardball last night, Chris Mathews spent 30 minutes suggesting Bush and Cheney were behind the Plame leak, when Armitage admitted to it years ago. After that piece, he went right in to slamming Republicans for the birth certificate stuff. Its like you guys never heard the phrase, what goes around, comes around.

Originally posted by mythatsabigprobe
Because it hasn't been proven fake.

Yes it has. Jay McKinnon admitted making the forgeries for Daily Kos and when he admitted it, Daily Kos pulled them off their website.

The State of Hawaii verified they have the record of his birth and he was indeed born there.

Not true. Hawaii said they have his original BC in a vault there.
They did NOT verifiy his birth in Hawaii.

Again ... example ...

My daughter was born in Santa Cruz, Bolivia. She is adopted.
Her original BC is now in Atlanta, Georgia.

[edit on 7/24/2009 by FlyersFan]

What this movement really wants seems to be rather bizarre.

If their arguments where valid these things would happen:

a) All citizens of Hawaii would no longer be US citizens. (None of them will be able to produce a "long form" since Hawaii doesn't have anything it calls a "long form")

b) The US would become a part of Kenya/Indonesia/Afghanistan/all three since their laws trump US laws (on US soil on the subject of US citizens), making any decision in the US administration invalid.

So they obviously want to abolish the US, with the exception of Hawaii. Why? No idea...

Originally posted by redhatty
Complicit, not necessarily. They are bound by laws to not release whatever "Long Form" information they may (or may not) have without explicit permission from Barack Obama.

Thats true, however they did personally verify the short form as authentic causing many birthers to partly implicate them as somehow bias or in the conspiracy. The short form birth certificate is the legal certification of birth and last year the state of Hawaii verified Obamas short form birth certificate as sufficient proof of birth.

Confirmation that the original birth certificate is being held by the state is a far cry from confirming that what was offered to the public,

Then you may find this interesting:

Birth certificates (Certificates of Live Birth and Certifications of Live Birth) and Certificates of Hawaiian Birth are the primary documents used to determine native Hawaiian qualification.

The Department of Hawaiian Home Lands accepts both Certificates of Live Birth (original birth certificate) and Certifications of Live Birth because they are official government records documenting an individual’s birth. The Certificate of Live Birth generally has more information which is useful for genealogical purposes as compared to the Certification of Live Birth which is a computer-generated printout that provides specific details of a person’s birth. Although original birth certificates (Certificates of Live Birth) are preferred for their greater detail, the State Department of Health (DOH) no longer issues Certificates of Live Birth. When a request is made for a copy of a birth certificate, the DOH issues a Certification of Live Birth.

hawaii.gov...

Whether you choose to accept it as sufficient proof or not, the certification of live birth otherwise known as the "short form" birth certificate has become accepted by the state Hawaii as sufficient proof of birth. The fact that Fukina and other officials at the Hawaiian health department verified the short form personally solidifies this fact. You may have your own suspicions about Obama not meeting the demands of the birthers, you may not be satisfied, but under law he has proven sufficiently his eligibility, and really isnt obligated to show anything further.

Any chances by the least to question his birth right for the presidency was left to the "presidential confirmation" in December of 2008, however congress along with the electoral college accepted him as eligible. The constitution leaves all issues of eligibility and birth right to congress by the way.

I admit to being a "birther" only because there is still so much to question.

The only questions being created are those from the rightwing fringe who typically are known for holding multiple conspracies about Obama and other past leading liberal figures. These "questions" fortunatley do not tally up sufficient evidence to any basis in the theory of Obamas birth off US soil, evidence under court of law.

Not everybody will be satisfied with what this man does, not everybody will be satisfied with this man being voted in. Fortunatley in these United states the president doesnt have to satisfy every single individual in the nation.

2. HRS Chapter 338 was amended to add a new section authorizing the Director of the Department of Health to issue a birth certificate for a person NOT born in Hawaii either as a Territory or State, upon sufficient proof that the legal parents of such individual had declared the Territory or State of Hawaii as their legal residence for at least one year immediately preceding the birth of such child.

Obama snr was never a permanent resident of Hawaii, he was an exchanged student who left back to Kenya straight after Obama jnrs birth. For the ammendment it needed both parents to declare permanent residency. You are somehow trying to say Obama could still have attained a birth certificate of Hawaii, even after 1982 when he was already an adult when this statute came out. This ammendment also only applied to children, Obama was into his 20's by the 80s.

This alone leaves much room for a parent to purposely manipulate the system to ensure that their child was granted US Citizen status through the State of Hawaii.

Yes, only this granted parents the rights over their children from 1982 onwards, when Obama was already an adult. It simply didnt apply to him "had he hypothetically been born off soil". He would not have attained an Hawaiian short form birth certificate given that case. He did however present a short form hawaiian birth certificate, verified by the state. It only confirms his birthright.

But the question still looms,

Questions will not get your case through court, neither will hypothetical scenarios, neither will your personal dissatisfaction. You need solid proof. Obama has proven sufficiently under Hawaiian law his birth right for the presidency. Its in his right under law not to have to prove anything further. You may not find that acceptable, however you dont dictate the laws of the land.

The potential repercussions of Barack Obama not being eligible to hold the office of President

Again hypothetical, speculation. It just doesnt hold up as evidence he was born off US soil.

That's all we "birthers" are asking to see from the Hawaiian Long Form

Redhatty, the rest of the nation and the world doesnt give a cats hair what the birthers "just want to see". Apart from the fact you will inevitably continue to cry foul so long as this mans president, Obama has under law proven sufficiently his birth right for the presidency. He is not obligated to show anything any further. The campaigns over and its time birthers to get over the fact he proved sufficiently by law his eligibility and was voted in president.

If you really feel there is something to this conspiracy, gather up the solid evidence he was born off soil, because thats the only way you will probably get him to release more documents to prove otherwise.

SG



[edit on 24-7-2009 by Southern Guardian]

Originally posted by FlyersFan"...the radical left who adore Obama won't see the truth of what you just said. They invent a term and then invent ridicule in order to stiffle the search for the truth. And you are right ... these actions are straight out of the Obama playbook....

They are straight out of Saul Alinsky's Rules for Radicals, particularly Rules #5 and 12.

[quote="Saul Alinsky"]

RULE 5: "Ridicule is man's most potent weapon." There is no defense. It's irrational. It's infuriating. It also works as a key pressure point to force the enemy into concessions.

RULE 12: Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it." Cut off the support network and isolate the target from sympathy. Go after people and not institutions; people hurt faster than institutions.

In Rule 12, Acorn has labeled concerned citizens into a group of people of their naming, then applied Saul Alinsky's Rule #12 in order to shut them down.

The records show that Obama (Barry Soetoro) studied and adhers to the teachings of the late Stalinist, Saul Alinsky; and Saul Alinsky was Hillary's mentor in college.