The most violent country in Europe: Britain is also worse than South Africa and U.S.

Originally posted by Majestic23
you have no idea about real violence and hardship just like I dont.

Actually, I do, but you are correct in your assessment that I have stories which don't rightly belong here. Not at this point, anyhow. I'm probably a bit older than your mum, though.

Violence in England seems random and very cruel and comes out of the blue and its not what they are used to.

It usually does come out of the blue. If you see it coming far enough ahead, you can avoid it. That fact alone could account for some of the differing viewpoints here as to whether there is violence in Britain at all. One who has never been in the wrong place at the wrong time has likely never encountered it, and that would affect their views, while one who HAS been would necessarily have a differing opinion.

[edit on 2009/7/5 by nenothtu]

I was attached to a unit of the First Cav, and every time we went on a small three day R&R, we had a number of guys knifed, beaten, and robbed by gangs which we referred to as "cowboys."

Their favorite tactic was to have a spotter or two in one of the hundreds of bars, and when a drunken GI would flash a roll, they'd follow him out, and as he passed the corner, drag him into the alley, and depending on their mood, they'd rob and either cut or beat the hell out of him.

A handful of us decided to negate some of this ongoing threat by addressing the problem directly.

We would buy a lot of smaller denomination bills, and put a few large denomination bills on the outside of a roll, stay sober that afternoon, and then at night we began our task.

We took turns, but we would go in, order a drink, stagger around a bit as we drank it, being sure to flash this nice, big, fat wad of money for anyone to see, since in our "drunken" state, we'd be very clumsy peeling off our notes to pay for the drink.

After the drink, we'd stagger out the door, and repeat the process until we were grabbed and dragged into an alley.

Before they could even begin to beat us, we'd grab our stomach, and start the gagging like we were going to throw up.

Believe me, when a guy is lurching, everyone stands back.

We'd bend slightly at the waist, grab our middle while trying to yak, pulling out the US Army Model 1911 we had tucked in our waist.

We'd come out with it, shoot the SOB's, and walk out of the alley.

We did this scores of times over the next three visits, and suddenly, when the First Cav came to town, there were no attacks.

Zero.

None.

Apparently word got out. No one could figure out what was going on as there were never any survivors to tell their friends, but they apparently came to the conclusion that the First Cav was a very good group to leave alone.

Violent people will only be violent people as long as they are permitted to be violent.

Cutting down on their numbers is a really effective method of convincing some to get into another line of work.

reply to post by noangels


Actually data from the US tends to show the opposite effect. When citizens carry guns they tend to avoid confrontation and de-escalate potentially dangerous situations as much as possible. There are very very few shootings where a citizen "loses it" and shoots someone out of anger. That is a criminal act and one lands in jail. I don't want to use my gun ever, but I carry it all the time so that if I do need it I have it.

Most criminal shootings are done by criminals who are not legally allowed to posses guns already, as is the case in the UK as well. So if current laws are not preventing that then gun control does not work.

reply to post by Silk


Thats not entirely true, before the gun laws changed my neighbour had a dozen or so hand guns under his firearms certificate as well as a pump action shotgun and several rifles.
Obviously he wasnt allowed to carry conceled but was allowed to drive around to shooting clubs with them in his car etc.

when the law came in instead of giving them up he transported them to the isle of man where he still legally owns them as they are kept in a club for him.
He still owns the pump but it has been converted to 2 shot & still owns the rifles (lee enfield 303 & some 22 bolt actions).

Originally posted by nenothtu
Actually, I do, but you are correct in your assessment that I have stories which don't rightly belong here. Not at this point, anyhow. I'm probably a bit older than your mum, though.
[edit on 2009/7/5 by nenothtu]

It is in my experience Neno, that people who have lived under the cloud of violence and hardship I was describing do not have any desire to propagate it, romaticise violence, or even talk of or remember about it. I feel you speak about it too much and have "security officer" on your avatar. It therefor concerns me that you are either a keyboard warrior or simply someone who likes violence and secretly wants people to try and jack you just so you can have a go. Your views on this please.

reply to post by Retseh

Americans don't post this type of thing because we want to gloat over the social decay that has so plainly beset the UK, we post it because we use it to try and educate liberals about where their policies will ultimately lead here in the US

I'd forgotten about this post until I came back to look for where I'd read upto.
So you post BS to further your agenda. Are you claiming to represent all Americans?
We have some perjoritive words & phrases for that kind of thing: indoctrination, parrotting propaganda, revisionism, spreading lies, or just plain lying out of your arse.

reply to post by dooper


This is an excellent example of a case where mortal force was allowed to become more powerful for the criminals. Parts of human nature is ruthless, always has been and always will have that element. Wouldn't it be nice if the world was all pink bunny rabbits and rainbow butterflies? Yeah, it's not. Once equilibrium was applied (via lethal force) the crime stopped and the victims no longer needed to violently protect their lives.

My postulate still stands in my world view that if folks in the UK could not be prosecuted for defending their life and property there would be less violence. If you have the option to posses and use lethal force and choose not to then that is your business, but to have your govt. dictate to you how you can or cannot protect self, family and property is simply unacceptable.

Originally posted by TruthxIsxInxThexMist
I live in London and i gotta say that in all my years i've only ever seen one person get into a fight after a night out.... sounds strange but it's true.... and i used to go out a lot and i mean a lot...... of course people drank, got drunk and did drugs but i never saw any violence!!

thats the thing though,we all mostly come to our conclusions based on where we are now and what we are experiencing,it only takes 10 miles and it can seem you are in another world imo.

where i grew up was terrible you couldn't walk to the shop without being threatened and you get used to it,i remember thinking it was generally the norm to be threatened by a group of 16 year old chav's for walking past them.

at 16 we moved from yorkshire to lincolnshire and i tell you what it was like another world and if id lived here all my life i would come to the conclusion that its not as bad as everybody makes out but the fact is it really is bad in a lot of places and i for one would love it to get more attention violence is violence imo fists,knives,guns,bats whatever.

reply to post by merkaba93


Simple problems are best solved with simple methods.

We in the US have our problems as well. The damned police, the courts, the attorneys, and the liberal human rights groups prevent a proper addressing of our problems.

Sure, we can own and carry firearms in most of the country, but there are a lot of areas of the country where they've passed local laws prohibiting carry. And it is in those areas where the highest number of crimes occur.

Not too many decades ago, in the Western US, the local populace would get sick and tired of the lawlessness and violence, get a group together, round up the troublemakers, hang them, and INSTANTLY the town had no problems with crime or criminals for a long time.

I recall years ago talking to an old lawman. He said that on a Saturday night, they could enter a bar or club, announce that everyone was going to be patted down as they exited the business, and after everyone had been patted down, everyone could reenter and continue their pursuits.

He said they would turn their head of purpose, and you could hear the knives and guns hitting the floor. It was quick, no one got into trouble, it sent a clear message, and it helped prevent things from getting out of hand later in the night.

Can't do that now! No unreasonable search.

In days past, murderers, rapists, child molesters, and the like were quickly hung or shot upon conviction.

Hell, we've got folks that have been on death row for thirty years!

No justice. No real punishment.

Only when punishment is swift, certain, and public does it become effective.

Here, there, or over yonder.

Britain, in my opinion can be considered one of the most vile empires of all time.

Besides the genocide and democide, their elite have conspired for the last 250+ years to bring the entire world under their rule, and that is not a conspiracy or a theory. That is well known fact.

I am not talking about todays Britain, but the Britain of the 18th and 19th centuries.

reply to post by stumason


Great post..esp.Basildon..loved it.
So true what you say,loved how you put it.

reply to post by open_eyeballs


Your opinion is flawed by hatred as your passion
belies your objectivity.

reply to post by jean59


I dont see how an opinion can be flawed, since it is an opinion. And hatred doesnt really describe my feeling. I am more indifferent than anything, as I have not lived during those times.

And recognition of the facts are what has formed my opinion. Feel free to look up Britains past transgressions in South Africa, India, China and well, America. They are well documented and outlined.

As for the conspiritorial accusations. Well, they are not made by me. I just made a quick reference to Cecil E. Rhodes and his co-conspirators.

Originally posted by Majestic23

Originally posted by nenothtu
Actually, I do, but you are correct in your assessment that I have stories which don't rightly belong here. Not at this point, anyhow. I'm probably a bit older than your mum, though.
[edit on 2009/7/5 by nenothtu]

It is in my experience Neno, that people who have lived under the cloud of violence and hardship I was describing do not have any desire to propagate it, romaticise violence, or even talk of or remember about it. I feel you speak about it too much and have "security officer" on your avatar. It therefor concerns me that you are either a keyboard warrior or simply someone who likes violence and secretly wants people to try and jack you just so you can have a go. Your views on this please.

Nope, there's nothing romantic or glorious about violence or hardship. It does exist, and potentially can catch any of us at any time. It bothers me when good people are caught by such events unawares, and without a clue as to what to do and how to deal with it. Because of that, I speak about it, perhaps more than I should, in hopes of raising a degree of awareness in them. Forewarned is forearmed, and it's much easier to avoid unpleasantness if one know what to look for, and can sidestep the approach of it. If it can't be avoided, then development of the proper attitude and mindset ahead of time is 90% of a victory over it.

In the department of hardship, I grew up in a shack in the Appalachian mountains. No indoor plumbing, no running water. A chronically unemployed and alcoholic father. I don't say that to slight him in any way, he was just given out, and did the best he could at raising me with what he had available, to the limits of his diminished abilities. We had no money, and I lived for sometimes weeks at a time on nothing more than cornbread and beans, and there were sometimes stretches of days at a time when even that was unavailable. Our water source would go dry in the summers, and I would have to carry water in milk jugs about a mile back to my house, 12 gallons at a time.

There's more where that comes from, but I'd say that's sufficient to explain myself.

Because of that, I learned a lot of things that the average citizen doesn't have a clue about these days, and to be honest I hope they never do. The upshot is that if hardships come, I can handle them, and would prefer that everyone could, without have to actually experience the school of hard knocks for themselves. So I talk to educate. Not so much about hard times in this thread, as that's not really the topic here.

On the topic of violence, I have a smattering of experience there as well. I'll not go into particulars here, as some folks who actually know me, and should know better, have said some fairly unkind things to me over the years after discovering bits and pieces, without knowing the full stories. If they would do that, how much more so strangers in an open forum?

The long and the short of it is that I am not by nature a violent person, but I can become extremely violent on very short notice, given the proper stimulus. That reaction will be kept up at full throttle until the stimulus is removed, and I can get back to being peaceful. I can get along with anyone, assuming they also have an urge to get along.

I speak, in general terms, about violence because peace is to be striven for, and the first step in doing that is knowing how to meet, or flee from, violence when it makes its appearance. Because it does so without warning.

I will ALWAYS remember, and speak whenever I can, hoping against hope that someone will take something constructive from it. It doesn't matter who they are, or if they "like" me, or if they even know me, but if that evil day falls on them and anything I've said has made enough impression to help them through it, I've done my job.

The avatar actually says "Chief of Security". It's the position of a character I write for in a space opera in the writing forum of ATS, which can be found here. It's not "my" identity. That said, it's also true that I carried a gun for a living for most of my adult life, in one capacity or another, one of which was as a "Custom Protection Officer" for Wackenhut. More or less an armed "Security Guard". You may take from that what you will.

I am not a "keyboard warrior", and I don't "like" violence. I don't WANT to be "jacked", but I won't run and hide if someone tries to jack me. I will jack right back, for as long AS I deem necessary. Then I calm right down. Being in a constant state of conflict is far too taxing to willingly perpetuate it.

I hope I have sufficiently addressed your concerns. If not, let me know, and I will elaborate as far as I am able to, in order to do so.



[edit on 2009/7/5 by nenothtu]

Originally posted by kode
Certainly better then a bunch of gun tooting, dog owning ye ha's, who come from the good ol US of A.

Haha, I couldn't stop laughing, not at you but to the reference to the hick with the dogs who proclaimed (when imaginary burglers came into his house whom he didn't see) to his dogs, " Let's go hunting boys". You have got to be kidding me, if that isn't hick I don't know what is. And this guy has a gun.

reply to post by nenothtu

Good to see you! A worthy opponent is often the mark of a man, and the delight of a warrior. I thank you for doing me the honor.

Wheyhey! I made you a foe. It's the "respected foe" bit. There's a lot on here who seem to mindlessly repeat barely understood political theories without showing the least understanding necessary to even relate such ideas to their own lives. I just can't respect that.

A couple of years ago, port authorities managed to stumble across 2000 Type 56 assault rifles

I'm well prepared to believe that drug funded gangs can afford to do business with international arms traders. But what has that got to do with ordinary Americans? Those people could buy you 5x over & call it operating costs. They're not going to come round your house on the rob: you haven't got anything worth the effort. Those AKs & who knows what else, are to fight police, border patrol, the Mexican Army & each other. You want to stop that? Legalise drugs.

I know that some of the gangsatas in my neighborhood have full auto playthings

You & I both know that any semi-auto weapon can have its gas return system modified for full-auto fire, even a pistol; ok it's moving parts wouldn't last long, but that's not so with a gun designed for such use but modified for single shot to be legally bought in the USA (& that's not google-knowledge). Anyway, are you really saying that most guns used in US crime were not made in & filled with ammo from the USA? I'll need credible (ie non-NRA) stats on that.
Re: knowledge of & storage of guns
I'm also prepared to accept that you, as a vet & into stuff like that, know what you're about with firearms. But I dont for 1min believe that's the norm. Put anything in a locked box, someone else with enough determination can get it open or carry it away to where they can take their time over it & any "bolt-blocking lock" can be drilled.
(TBC)

Originally posted by rogue1

Originally posted by kode
Certainly better then a bunch of gun tooting, dog owning ye ha's, who come from the good ol US of A.

Haha, I couldn't stop laughing, not at you but to the reference to the hick with the dogs who proclaimed (when imaginary burglers came into his house whom he didn't see) to his dogs, " Let's go hunting boys". You have got to be kidding me, if that isn't hick I don't know what is. And this guy has a gun.

Well of course I'm a "hick", "redneck", "hayseed" or any other slur you'd care to prop up against me. Good job with applying ignorance to someone you know nothing about. Keep it up, I'm sure your judgmental ravings will carry you far in this world.

1) You were not here, so how in hell would you know whats "imaginary" and what isn't? If you ask me, you're pretty good at imagining things you know nothing of yourself.

2) You know squat about me, and have no clue how excitable or not that I am. That goes back to your judgment of what's "imaginary" and what isn't. You don't have a clue.

3) You imagine that someone really cares of the judgment you pass on people you don't even know, "hick"or not? Talk about imaginary...

4) I've got more than "a" gun. I truly hope you don't. However, if you DO, and you shoot it off as well as you do your mouth, the rest of us have nothing to fear from you. You won't be able to hit your target, you'll just wind up doing yourself in.

5) I've seen things and lived though things that would obviously make you wet yourself. You are not qualified to gauge my responses. I can say that in all confidence, because of the way you shoot off your mouth without engaging your mind. I'll still be standing when the dust settles. You won't.

Y'all come back now, y'hear?

[edit on 2009/7/5 by nenothtu]

Originally posted by nenothtu
Haha, I couldn't stop laughing, not at you but to the reference to the hick with the dogs who proclaimed (when imaginary burglers came into his house whom he didn't see) to his dogs, " Let's go hunting boys". You have got to be kidding me, if that isn't hick I don't know what is. And this guy has a gun.

Well of course I'm a "hick", "redneck", "hayseed" or any other slur you'd care to prop up against me. Good job with applying ignorance to someone you know nothing about. Keep it up, I'm sure your judgmental ravings will carry you far in this world.

All I have is what you tell us, so yes I have made a judgement. I am curious do you keep the banjo next to the gun ?
As for getting far in this world, well let's face it your an anonymous person on teh internet, you have no sway over my and never will and the same goes for me with yours.

1) You were not here, so how in hell would you know whats "imaginary" and what isn't? If you ask me, you're pretty good at imagining things you know nothing of yourself.

It just seems the way you are, so fearful of crime and America, that any little noise will set you off.

2) You know squat about me, and have no clue how excitable or not that I am. That goes back to your judgment of what's "imaginary" and what isn't. You don't ave a clue.

You are getting excitable now to a small post on the internet

3) You imagine that someone really cares of the judgment you pass on people you don't even know, "hick"or not? Talk about imaginary...

Depends, not that I really care or not. Judging by your response you do care.

4) I've got more than "a" gun. I truly hope you don't. However, if you DO, and you shoot it off as well as you do your mouth, the rest of us have nothing to fear from you. You'll just wind up doing yourself in.

Nice one, that's worth a little chuckle.

5) I've seen things and lived though things that would obviously make you wet yourself. You are not qualified to gauge my responses. I can say that in all confidence, because of the way you shoot off your mouth without engaging your mind. I'll still be standing when the dust settles. You won't.

Of course you behave just like any bull#ter. Sadly, it's ten times easier to be a bull#ter on the Internet, where people can't even tell how old you are, or even what gender you are. A 40 year old man can pretend to be an 8 year old girl, a 15 year old kid can pretend to be a senator, and anyone with a keyboard can pretend to combine the skills of Rambo, Oppenheimer, Josey Wales, and Bruce Lee. With that in mind, ask yourself if this guy's posts to me already sounds like the bleatings of a classic Bull#ter.



[edit on 5-7-2009 by rogue1]

Thanks for that insight Neno. I guess I dont like the talking about self defence and such as it became something of a preoccupation for me and brought out a pretty negative kind of character, you know, like I wasnt being the real me.

I see it was me now that I was preoccupied in my mind and saw it as a violent place, puts you on edge. Iam glad to have grown out of that stage now though and feel a lot more at ease. But I get you, self defence is important. Wheter guns laws have a posative or negative effect is a differant matter in my opinion. I mean, when it comes down to it, the people who have it in themselves to defend themselves will no matter what the cirumstances may be.

reply to post by nenothtu


A very macho, threatening speech.. well done.
Now you have stroked your ego and shown your muscles, you should
understand that was British humor!!
Relax and please don't shoot us!!...Joking.