The most violent country in Europe: Britain is also worse than South Africa and U.S.

reply to post by nenothtu Re: revolution
Please explain to me how the govt of the USA or Russia was/is not tyranny? Who was in charge after the yelling stopped? The rich/well connected or did I miss ordinary people bypassing the usual oligarchy we know today as TPTB?
If guns made revolution easier, why didn't we see it in 1930s America? Or the 60s? People were literally sobbing their hearts out when JFK was killed, there was a massively unpopular war & enormous social change; perfect conditions... Oh, but hang on, there was a neighbourhood that might have guns that folks wouldn't be drawn together with & no amount of politeness could assuage the fear of, eh?
Personally, although I disregard his religious standpoint, given the pressure cooker he worked in, I find Dr. King's example inspiring.
(PS it's the weekend, I'm drunk again so please excuse the poor performance)

Originally posted by Bunken Drum
Wheyhey! I made you a foe. It's the "respected foe" bit. There's a lot on here who seem to mindlessly repeat barely understood political theories without showing the least understanding necessary to even relate such ideas to their own lives. I just can't respect that.

I saw that, and returned the favor. You're one of the ones here that actually THINKS before they SPEAK. That goes a long way towards maintaining an intelligent conversation, and makes it worth while to spar with you in these matters.

I'm well prepared to believe that drug funded gangs can afford to do business with international arms traders. But what has that got to do with ordinary Americans? Those people could buy you 5x over & call it operating costs. They're not going to come round your house on the rob: you haven't got anything worth the effort. Those AKs & who knows what else, are to fight police, border patrol, the Mexican Army & each other. You want to stop that? Legalise drugs.

That involves ordinary Americans for a couple of reasons. One is that they are the ones who get caught in the crossfire in these gang rivalries that flare up occaisionally. Another is that these guns don't stay put, they filter down and out, sometimes arriving at destinations far removed from their intended recipients. That presents problems for average Americans entirely disconnected from LA or the drug trade. That particular seizure was only an example. One has to wonder where others are slipping through.

I'm all for legalizing drugs. It's not my job to tell others how to destroy themselves.

You & I both know that any semi-auto weapon can have its gas return system modified for full-auto fire, even a pistol; ok it's moving parts wouldn't last long, but that's not so with a gun designed for such use but modified for single shot to be legally bought in the USA (& that's not google-knowledge). Anyway, are you really saying that most guns used in US crime were not made in & filled with ammo from the USA? I'll need credible (ie non-NRA) stats on that.

Actually, it's more effective to modify the disconnector, since a semi-auto gas system is already set up for full auto, but I get your drift. The problem with such modifications is that they tend to run haywire at the least opportune moments, and often.

To be frank, it's cheaper to buy a real full auto on the black market than it is to modify a semi-auto that's bound to let you down. Laws are notoriously lax at regulating the black market.

I'm not saying WHERE most US crime guns are manufactured, as I have no idea. What I AM saying is that it's known that enough of them are imported on the black market to make the question moot as to whether it's "most" or not. It doesn't take many to kill an innocent, and anyone so killed will not much care where the weapon was made.

Don't worry about me quoting NRA stats. I try to stay as far away fro them as I can.

Re: knowledge of & storage of guns
I'm also prepared to accept that you, as a vet & into stuff like that, know what you're about with firearms. But I dont for 1min believe that's the norm. Put anything in a locked box, someone else with enough determination can get it open or carry it away to where they can take their time over it & any "bolt-blocking lock" can be drilled.
(TBC)

All I can speak to is my own experience, and in my circles it IS the norm. I only know of one individual who stores their firearms in a lax manner, and have heard a rumor of one other (Nancy Reagan) that I can't confirm or deny, since I don't move in THOSE circles.

In order to gather the equipment to drill through my lock, they'd have to shell out more money than the gun is worth, and a LOT more than they could get one for on the black market, ready to go. It would also destroy the receiver. My strategy there is mostly about making it not worth the effort for them, and keeping the guns stashed where they wouldn't think to look for them.

[edit on 2009/7/5 by nenothtu]

You obviously haven't done your homework. That's sad, since you wouldn't even have to leave ATS to do it. Sad AND lazy.

That's ok, you're you, not me. You don't have to do any digging at all that you wouldn't want influencing your preconceived notions.

I'd hate for you to become confused with the facts, after your mind is already made up. Therefore, I'll leave you to your little fantasy world, and won't be engaging any further in this little character assassination attempt of yours. It's the mark of a small mind.

Or an unused one.

Besides, there are folks here that actually think, and gather their facts, before they speak, and they are FAR more worthy opponents than yourself.

Have a nice life.

Originally posted by jean59
reply to post by nenothtu

 

A very macho, threatening speech.. well done.
Now you have stroked your ego and shown your muscles, you should
understand that was British humor!!
Relax and please don't shoot us!!...Joking.

I didn't mean any "threat" whatsoever. I wouldn't fly across the pond to pummel anyone at all, for sure.

I had a muscle once, but that was a long time ago, and I think it must have atrophied.

I missed the humor part, but it must have been in the inflection, which I couldn't hear.

And I CERTAINLY haven't seen anything here worth shooting someone over!

reply to post by nenothtu I meant to address this too:

What's happening over there, what's this violence I hear about you're running into there, and does it compare in any way to our situation here?

I think it does, but slightly differently.
In the 80s Thatcher broke our Trade Unions & to do it, she ripped the heart out of our largest industries. Her govt was so focussed on monetarism (like Reagan & the early neo-cons) that they didn't care @all about the unemployment & invested the least amount possible in education & training, which produced deep social divisions. We had riots. They hired more police & paid them more.
Then they overstepped by trying to bring in the Poll Tax. @that stage Britain was on the point of revolution. 10s of millions wouldn't pay & millions took to the streets. If the govt hadn't backed down, it'd have been martial law & serious sh!t or complete economic collapse & worse sh!t.
Thatcher was dumped. People were appeased. But something else she'd done lingered unnoticed. By selling state owned housing to its occupants cheap, she created a massive house price boom, which fed into an unprecedented consumer credit boom, which led to Black Wednesday: the stock market crash. Does this sound familiar?
It should. Back in 2005 I predicted this current financial meltdown after reading that Bush Jnr. had signed an "American Dream" law to provide grants to 1st time & low income families to buy homes. You put the same ingredients in the same oven: you get the same pie. But your Unions were broken long ago & your manufacturing offshored in dribs & drabs. It matters not, neither workforce has job security & both have massive debt. We are divided, worthless & broke.
How then should we be surprised when people get into drugs, get drunk regularly & get into fights?
The problem is that now so many 'little people' have got something, some equity in their house etc. we've got something to lose.

Originally posted by Majestic23
Thanks for that insight Neno. I guess I dont like the talking about self defence and such as it became something of a preoccupation for me and brought out a pretty negative kind of character, you know, like I wasnt being the real me.

That's a fact. I think everyone has a monster inside themselves somewhere, and under certain conditions it can take over, often insidiously, while you're unaware of it. The trick is to keep it caged, and that's not always easy to do. Sometimes defense will bleed into offense, and the individual will try to rationalize it, eventually becoming someone they don't even recognize.

I see it was me now that I was preoccupied in my mind and saw it as a violent place, puts you on edge. Iam glad to have grown out of that stage now though and feel a lot more at ease. But I get you, self defence is important. Wheter guns laws have a posative or negative effect is a differant matter in my opinion. I mean, when it comes down to it, the people who have it in themselves to defend themselves will no matter what the cirumstances may be.

That's also a fact. The only thing guns, or any other tool, do is make the job more efficient, so we can more quickly get back to our better selves.
The job can be done with nothing at all, but it takes longer, and hurts more. Over here, the only thing gun laws effect are ease of availability, and to whom, not the absolute availability. To put it more simply, our criminals care nothing about the law, and so are not affected by them.

A much more efficient solution would be to root out the violent offenders ASAP, and then the question of arms becomes moot.

I'm just not sure how that could be done peacefully.

Originally posted by Bunken Drum
Re: revolution
Please explain to me how the govt of the USA or Russia was/is not tyranny? Who was in charge after the yelling stopped? The rich/well connected or did I miss ordinary people bypassing the usual oligarchy we know today as TPTB?

Come on now, That's a trick question!

The US government as it stands now IS a tyranny, and has been for roughly 20 years. In the original Revolution, the people did bypass the usual oligarchy, and were more or less in charge roughly up to our Civil War, when things took a turn towards the draconian, and have been going downhill ever since, at an accelerating pace.

In Russia, right after the 1989 revolution, There was wide-open freedom for the people for a while. I'm not sure how it is for them there now, but it's likely the oligarchy has gotten that reigned in to a pretty high degree, maybe not so much as here.

If guns made revolution easier, why didn't we see it in 1930s America? Or the 60s? People were literally sobbing their hearts out when JFK was killed, there was a massively unpopular war & enormous social change; perfect conditions... Oh, but hang on, there was a neighbourhood that might have guns that folks wouldn't be drawn together with & no amount of politeness could assuage the fear of, eh?

Firearms would make it easier, but by themselves don't produce the will for a revolution.

When JFK was assassinated, folks were PLENTY upset, but they didn't have a clue as to what to revolt against. The fervor against the Vietnam war had not reached it's highest pitch (most Americans at that point couldn't even find Vietnam on a map), the war was low-key, with a very small US involvement. The people at the time were of the opinion that the assasination was the product of a lone nutter, Lee Harvey Oswald. The Warren Commission, and the conspiracy theories, were yet to come, after the initial emotion had worn off.

LBJ was the one who started throwing massive numbers of troops into Vietnam, and ratcheting up the heat. It was "Mr Johnson's War" in concert with McNamara. The kids who were the most vocal and upset about it didn't for the most part have guns, or even believe in ownership of them. They, and their progeny, are the ones running the country today. That's something Britain will need to look out for in the future, from these Chavs.

There WERE a few isolated and small groups calling for violent revolution later in the 60's, but they never developed the numbers or the organization to make good on the threat.

Personally, although I disregard his religious standpoint, given the pressure cooker he worked in, I find Dr. King's example inspiring.

Dr King's work certainly didn't come easy, or bloodlessly, but few worthwhile things ever do.

(PS it's the weekend, I'm drunk again so please excuse the poor performance)

You should have caught me last night. We'd have been singing campfire songs before the night was over!

reply to post by TaintedJustice By quoting those "knife crime" stats, you are falling into exactly the same intellectual hole the Daily Mulch did in the OP.
"Carrying an object with a blade or point longer than three inches" is a "knife crime". Doesn't mean anyone got hurt.

reply to post by Bunken Drum


That DOES sound a lot like what we have going on here now, with the exception that little people are losing their housing equities through foreclosure. What they have on us is that the most vocal segments of society at the present are being placated with handouts from the public dole, and of course they don't want to upset the gravy train. Should that ever dry up, or some circumstance occur to upset that balance, it's going to be hell on earth for us for a while. That will put the "rev" in revolution, and cause large, angry crowds to mobilize without organization or direction.

Our counterparts to your Chavs will suddenly find themselves pointed at SOMETHING, but not be entirely sure what, and consequently attack EVERYTHING in their reach. Think "LA Riots", but nationwide. People won't sit still long when you start messing with their money.

That would lead to an excuse for Martial Law, at which time previously uncommitted elements would come into the fracas, and all bets would be off. Cities are far too easy to seal off, as far as power, water, and food go, and you can imagine how people react when they suddenly find themselves without those things after having gotten used to having them immediately to hand.

It only takes one spark to set off a whole powder keg.

I hope that scenario doesn't come to pass, but it is an entirely plausible one.

I don't know how it is there, or if it would be feasible to set those violent elements of your society against the general public in such a way, but if a degree of violence is already present, I'd have to say it bears watching, but not getting panicky about.

Nope, it proves Gun control doe not work.

And also to some extend disproves that abortion lowers the crime rate.

reply to post by Laurauk Who would pay to keep people in jail longer, Laura? You? More income tax, more VAT, or would you prefere less healthcare, education, or police?
How about when those people get out & have no idea whatsoever how to live in society? Do we wait for them to hurt somebody else & send them back to jail until the next probably worse time, or spend even more money on probation supervision? Perhaps we could carry on as we are & jail people just as long as we can afford to keep them there & when they get out give them just the token supervision we can afford?
Then we can all just carry on dreaming that its none of our concern. Some people are bad. Its easy to spot them: they're nothing like me. Except maybe I like a little ganj now & again. Hmmm, there's a bloke down the pub sells [insert whatever] & its handy to know him...
But real criminals. No, because I'd never become violent, right? Personally I've been surprised by what I'm capable of & shocked by some of the things I've seen seemingly ordinary people do.
Since we've had this problem in some form since civilisation has existed, how about we spend some money on the root cause of crime for a change? Poverty & disenchanfrisement...

reply to post by nenothtu


Damn, Neno, it seems you have been catching it from all sides.

I note that a hayseed from Kansas seemingly had a problem with the dog-owning redneck thing. If that isn't the pot calling the kettle black.

Those American rednecks are the salt of the earth. You'll not find much violence in rural areas because these folks have no tolerance for it, and aren't going to put up with it.

I served in combat with men from every corner of the country. and in the interest of self-preservation, gravitated toward the guys from Kentucky, Virginia, Georgia, Texas, Alabama, Mississippi, Tennessee, and West By-God. There were some fine fighting men from other states, but these guys you could rely on when it became do or die.

Many came from poor families, not all, and a harder-drinking, straight-shooting bunch I never met.

Give me a country-assed, dog-owning, tobacco-chewing, pickup truck-driving redneck over a pretentious butt-crud pseudo-elitist any day. I value a man with values, not predetermined assumptions.

I see where the elitists have taken our country, our morals, and our lawlessness.

The big problem about gun control in my eyes is this:
You makes guns illegal, then it will only be criminals that own guns.

But being as I am classified by the govt as a criminal, i guess I'm ok.
but my guns are for hunting and self-defense only. I would never take anothers life unless defense


Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

Originally posted by dooper
I served in combat with men from every corner of the country. and in the interest of self-preservation, gravitated toward the guys from Kentucky, Virginia, Georgia, Texas, Alabama, Mississippi, Tennessee, and West By-God. There were some fine fighting men from other states, but these guys you could rely on when it became do or die.

AS I said to someone else in this thread :

Of course you behave just like any bull#ter. Sadly, it's ten times easier to be a bull#ter on the Internet, where people can't even tell how old you are, or even what gender you are. A 40 year old man can pretend to be an 8 year old girl, a 15 year old kid can pretend to be a senator, and anyone with a keyboard can pretend to combine the skills of Rambo, Oppenheimer, Josey Wales, and Bruce Lee. With that in mind, ask yourself if this guy's posts to me already sounds like the bleatings of a classic Bull#ter.

reply to post by rogue1


I see you're into recycling.

Do you have any ORIGINAL thoughts, or anything to add to the discussion?

Or are you just trolling?

reply to post by rogue1

Oh rogue, did I hurt your feelings with the Kansas hayseed thing?

Others here on ATS know me, know my works, know my history, and know who I am and what I am.

I do note a lot of pantywaists who've never done anything of any significance who love to feel better about their sorry-assed existence by attempting to tear down others.

It's not my fault.

You're miserable.

It shows.

Originally posted by Amagnon

Every single person should have the right to bear arms - that justice is enacted by force should not even be up for debate, as it is self evident truth. Without the means to exert meaningful force - then justice cannot exist.

Yeah, might is right! Woohoo! That's justice seen?
Er... hang on, didn't we have to cut a king's head off to get away from that mentality... like f**king ages ago?

Originally posted by dooper reply to post by noangels

 

And just how many knife attacks/hammer attacks have you defended yourself against? Most folks know that if two parties have a knife, likely, they'll kill each other. So what is your defense secret that enables you to defend against a knife attack? You are correct in one aspect, a pussy can pick up a gun. But that same pussy must be able to hit what he's shooting at. I learned a long time ago that one of the most uncomfortable conditions is to suddenly find yourself in a hatchet fight, and you're the only one without a hatchet. So I legally conceal a 1911 .45 Kimber Ultra CDPII with Crimson Trace laser grips, and it cost more than many people earn in two or three weeks. Not a throwaway, and not a cheap Saturday nite Special. You run if you want. I don't have the patience anymore.

Excuse me Mods, but this is ridiculous & in the spirit of trying to secure debate rather than mass debate, I'm going to ridicule it.
Ladies of ATS? Your attention please... I give you dooper!
He's telling us he's a real man with a big, expensive gun & he knows how to use it!
Anyone care to speculate what isn't so great?

reply to post by Bunken Drum


Would you rather they be released early and commit the same crimes? Or would you prefer those to dothe time laid down by the courts?

There is this delusion that Rehabilitation works, poppycock, it does not work, look at those who have been so called rehabilitated and have re committed the same crime afte being released.

If you do the crime no matter what it is, then you should do the time.

Not be given televisions, mobile phone, or privalages, because it is against your human rights not to be given them. What about the victims rights dont they get a say on weither or not those who have commited crimes against them should be released early?

On another note just going to ad this which I read today:

A second phase of a campaign aimed at raising awareness of the dangers of airguns has been launched by the Scottish Government.

Police suggested this is when airgun incidents are most likely to occur.

Justice Secretary Kenny MacAskill said: "Air guns are not toys, but weapons that can kill and maim. There have been tragedies that have caused pain and injury to children and animals. That's why we believe that action must be taken.

BBC Scotland



[edit on 6-7-2009 by Laurauk]

Originally posted by dooper
reply to post by noangels

 

And just how many knife attacks/hammer attacks have you defended yourself against?

Most folks know that if two parties have a knife, likely, they'll kill each other.

So what is your defense secret that enables you to defend against a knife attack?

You are correct in one aspect, a pussy can pick up a gun. But that same pussy must be able to hit what he's shooting at.

I learned a long time ago that one of the most uncomfortable conditions is to suddenly find yourself in a hatchet fight, and you're the only one without a hatchet.

So I legally conceal a 1911 .45 Kimber Ultra CDPII with Crimson Trace laser grips, and it cost more than many people earn in two or three weeks. Not a throwaway, and not a cheap Saturday nite Special.

You run if you want.

I don't have the patience anymore.

I learnt a fair few techniques with my old ITF TKD instructor,from wrist locks to arm bars-and of course kicking!The hand techniques were done with forearms facing blade so wrist veins were protected from slashing

A fast wrist lock technique I used in a demo with a rubber knife resulted in the Knife forcefully leaving his hand and hitting some one in the face a couple of metres away!good job it was rubber

The best advice I was ever given was to observe and leave the area if there looked like trouble was brewing.

That hatchet fight must have been intense!what did you do?depending on distance I would try to sweep the legs and take him to the ground or lock the arm and break it-mind you the hatchet can do a lot of damage!

Im an old boy,havnt had a fight outside of sparring since I was a teenager-and I hope I never have too-but its good to have the tools to fight if needed