UCLA Prohibits Student from Saying 'Jesus' in Graduation Speech

Originally posted by muzzleflash

The Constitution trumps all state laws.

Thankfully we have the Constitution, and your opinion falls flat when it comes down to the Law.

I am sure glad the Law protects me from people that attack free speech.

Separation of church and state stands because of precedence set by court cases.

There are threads in ATS that explains it in detail.

Originally posted by Annee
[

A public school is a Government school. My position stands.

You may have missed my post so I will share it again.

When is college a public school?


They have to be accepted and agree to pay the college of their choice a tuition and buy their own books. In grade school through High School that would be considered a private school.

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by muzzleflash

The Constitution trumps all state laws.

Thankfully we have the Constitution, and your opinion falls flat when it comes down to the Law.

I am sure glad the Law protects me from people that attack free speech.

Separation of church and state stands because of precedence set by court cases.

There are threads in ATS that explains it in detail.

court cases do not override the Constitution

The Constitution is the LAW of the LAND - NOT disputable!!

Originally posted by jd140

Originally posted by Annee
[

A public school is a Government school. My position stands.

When is college a public school?

When it says it is: The University of California, Los Angeles (generally known as UCLA) is a public research university. UCLA's undergraduate program is ranked third among public universities in the United States. UCLA is a Public Ivy, Public Ivies: A Guide to America's best public undergraduate colleges and universities

Originally posted by Annee

And by-the-way - - just for you - - I fully support the 2nd amendment.


[edit on 5-6-2009 by Annee]

Right , Im sure you do.


Second Amendment
"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."


Do you Even know what we are talking about here? Obviously Not.

Here I will educate you because you obviously have not looked at your LAWS yet....



First Amendment

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."


Ok, looks like thats that.
Now you know you were wrong. We forgive you.



"The Supremacy Clause is a clause in the United States Constitution, article VI, paragraph 2. The clause establishes the Constitution, Federal Statutes, and U.S. treaties as "the supreme law of the land". The text establishes these as the highest form of law in the American legal system, mandating that state judges uphold them, even if state laws or constitutions conflict."

en.wikipedia.org...


[edit on 6-6-2009 by muzzleflash]

reply to post by Annee


So if it is public then why do the students have to pay for tuition and books?

As I said in my post. This type of thing in grade school through highschool would be considered a private school.

But since you can't see the hypocrisy in your own posts I can see how you wouldn't be able to see the hypocrisy in that.

Jesus be with you.

Freedom of speech and freedom of opinion don't apply any more. If this had been a Muslim or Buddhist things would have been very different.

You should be able to say any thing insperational to you at your graduation. Thank you Jesus, Hot teacher or even Or sperm paste
the cloven hooved god of poorly timed masterbation.
In the name of science let the thoretical move on too for the pure sake of theoretical thought. Do it for the gay dolphins!

Since that is so, we do permit MCDB graduates to thank God in their words of wisdom, but we also ask that they refrain from making more specific religious references of any kind.

Therefore, I need to let you know that I will read your Words of Wisdom as follows:

First, I want to thank God.

This is not a seperation of church and state issue, this is a deny Christians their freedom of speech issue. If it were an issue of seperation of church and state she would not allow the use of the word God at all, but she clearly states that she will allow her to thank God, she just will not allow her to thank Jesus.

And she even goes on to admit that this is not school policy, but rather a policy in one certain department, a science department !

UCLA is not censoring your freedom of speech. This is not UCLA policy, or College policy....this is Department of Molecular, Cell & Developmental Biology policy.

www.facebook.com...

reply to post by Annee


Why doesn't it? She's given thanks to her inspiration that carried HER through. She's not promoting, teaching or preaching. Even though she was subject to controversial teachings like evolution, just so she could pass her biology coarse.

Please don't give me the whole evolution in scientific fact. A number of scientists falsify their work to support it. If they taught anything contrary they would loose tenure.

I see a huge conspiracy against everything Christian. Especially on this site.

I find it extremely hippocratical that many believe in aliens, light bringers and numerous other off the wall teachings with absolutely no proof whatsoever. Mention God and especially Jesus and that person is delusional, brain washed, unenlightened, low browed and every other name you can think of that assaults their intelligence, but above mentioned delusions are accepted and encouraged.

Why are so many threatened by the name of Jesus?

It might be different if this girl were being allowed to read her statement herself and she just slipped it in, but that isn't the case. From the Facebook page, in a follow-up letter from the school:

If you prefer, Christina, I can read none of what you wrote.

So, the statements aren't being read by the students themselves. The author of the quote above, someone named Pamela, will be reading (or not) Ms. Popa's statement for her. Pamela also says this in the letter:

UCLA is not censoring your freedom of speech. This is not UCLA policy, or College policy....this is Department of Molecular, Cell & Developmental Biology policy. The department adheres to the principle of separation of church and state at commencement, as it does not presume to know how every person attending this commencement will respond to specific religious references from one faith that may be different than their own.

Apparently Pamela is claiming that this is a separation issue and not a right to free speech and expression of religion issue. It also appears that Pamela is possibly using this line as a CYA for her claim that the school isn't censoring Ms. Popa's right to free speech and expression of religion:

Additionally, you were advised, in writing and in advance, that someone other than yourself would be reading the words you were being asked to submit.

I guess that if someone else is reading it for you your free speech isn't being censored...or something. Frankly, Pamela doesn't seem to have all that solid a grasp on the Constitution and the rights enumerated in it.

I am horrified at the thought of what I will be up against in the effort to ensure that my daughter receives a quality education once she reaches college age if this is the best and brightest that an Ivy like UCLA can find to employ and allow to represent them. The antagonism from Pamela directed at Ms. Popa (especially in that first quote I posted) is the kind of thing that lets me know that UCLA will NEVER be on any list of potential schools to visit when it comes time for my daughter to choose a location to continue her education. This kind of behavior makes it not a question of me paying them to educate my kid, it is that they couldn't pay me enough to risk sending her there.

Take care,
Cindi

I am not really into religion but I am into freedom. This is a very complex issue from two sides. For those excercising a freedom of speech, this is much like declaring there is no such freedom if the student is to be censored. I for one, do not want to be censored when I give my speech because I plan on plugging in the company I plan to open. Take advantage of free advertising whenever possible.

I have no proof of some religious guru from 2000+ years ago supossedly a son, no less, of some supreme being but is it really that important for me to force my views on a cult that has reigned supreme calling itself religion when all it really is can be boiled down to basic suppresion and oppresssion? Those are the kinds of people that can be controlled and if they can be controlled they may do something stupid like perhaps burn a witch? So yeah, in a big way, it is important but I really need to question my motives for forcing my views on the "Jesus speaker" and I have decided no.

I don't care if she thanks Jesus, Santa Clause or Bin Laden because if I allow her censorship, I allow my own and that is not a good alternative! But her name can be recorded for future cultish crap if I so wish to pursue that route, like for instance, run for government. I know I could get her vote! Oh geez! I think I let out the secret of running for office: kissing babies and telling cult members what they want to hear.

Originally posted by Happyfeet
Freedom of speech and freedom of opinion don't apply any more. If this had been a Muslim or Buddhist things would have been very different.

Yes, they would have celebrated it. There would be a mention of it on the news somewhere focusing just how diverse and multiculteral that school is.

reply to post by Glencairn


I don't intend to change the topic. I posted my view on the subject but I must correct my misinterpretation. I was not aware that UCLA was even close to being in the IVY LEAGUE. Isn't it a "public" college where just about anyone can get in and public means they get more money from the government than from the tuition that most parents help pay and they don't need top scores from the high school transcripts?

My daughter has a 3.99 which just about disqualified her from IVY but then when I lost everything I had with the stock market crash, that did disqualify her unless she earns a scholarship by bringing her senior year back up to 4.0. I was not aware that UCLA was considered IVY by anyone.

Back to the main topic, I do believe the speaker can say whatever he or she wishes to say. If the "Jesus" student is merely offering suggestions for the speaker, hey, sorry but it goes back to the speaker can say whatever he or she wishes to say. The freedom of speach is tied real close to the freedom not to listen and the freedom not believe and the freedom of making a choice whether right or wrong. Which freedom are you worried that your daughter may not have?

Not being a traditional Christian by any stretch of the imagination, but this is just wrong and pure censorship. If she were about to preach a sermon or call people to come up and say the "sinners prayer" I could see the stink, but a casual mention of her inspiration is just ridiculous.

reply to post by peggy m


UCLA isn't one of the original 8 schools, but it is listed by the Greene's Guides as a "Public Ivy" and turns up on a number of pages that list Ivy schools.

In regard to the main topic, maybe I'm not understanding what you are asking. The speaker is someone who will be reading the statements for the students instead of having the statements read by the graduating students. They are saying that they are censoring the student, Ms. Popa, based on the "separation of church and state". The problem with their argument is that they are allowing mention of God, so the argument doesn't hold up.

The student was offering suggestions to the speaker because it is the student's speech that is (maybe) going to be read, not something that the speaker is making up on her own and tacking the students names on. The other students all get to write their own speeches, turn them in, and have them read. Even with mentions of God.

The problem with your argument is that the freedoms to not listen or believe and the freedom to make your own choices don't cancel out another person's right to free speech and expression of religion.

Frankly, I worry about my daughter going to a school that thinks nothing of removing one student's rights while allowing the same rights to all other students who hold beliefs that don't offend the college staff. Your right to be offended does not trump my right to free speech, basically. Further, I would easily say my biggest concern falls on my child being educated by a staff who don't seem to know a shred of logic from a hole in the ground and lack critical thinking skills on top of that. Since that appears to be the case with at least some of the staff members of UCLA, it won't be on our list of schools to choose from.

Take care,
Cindi

See this is just one more thing that will in the end destroy our freedoms and then the constitution will be gone and well be ruled by a dictatorial govt.

Imo i dont like religion of any kind but this is straight up censorship, freedom of speech and freedom of religion are two main things that come to mind. She was just giving thanks to an inspiring factor in her life, and to her that was jesus, why should she have to change her opinion on the matter just so people wont be offended but then they say its okay for her to thank god, like wtf there both spiritual religious beings and if the school didnt want to offend people with other beliefs they wouldnt let people say god because what about the athiest or agnostic in the crowd

freedom of speech is a two way street and to oppress anything in the constitution with a state law is illegal and should be done away with

Amorika

This is just ridiculous,im an atheist but even i could care less about who someone wants to thank for getting them good grades,although i never realised jesus poofs out of nowhere and helps people with their homework.Learn something new every day.But in the end...its just a petty,pointless decision.

i know right like theres going to be riots because she said jesus was her study buddy i mean oooh noooooo.

reply to post by Annee

Religion belongs at home or in your church. It does not belong in Government or any public School.

Whilst I wholeheartedly agree with this statement, I cannot in any way agree to preventing any individual thanking who the hell they like.

If you have the right to prevent her from acknowledging her invisible friends then you also have the right to prevent me acknowledging my delusions.

Should I be in the students' position, and offer my thanks to the flying spaghetti monster, then that is my right.I wouldn't demand anyone respect my belief or the right to enforce it upon anyone, but I would demand the right to have my belief.

That being said, I cannot help but wonder whether the student had been studying science. As thanking an imaginary being that lives in the sky, strikes me as very unscientific and would make a mockery of her tutors.

Xtians (xtianity) have brought most of these overzealous PC problems upon themselves. They will now pay the price for the centuries of physical and emotional abuse that xtians, have wrought upon others that chose not to join in their delusion, or were too young or mentally unable to protect themselves from their abusers.

Although two wrongs will never make a right, cases like this should encourage us to deeply think about the things we believe and that of what we don't believe.