Hersh: Children sodomized at Abu Ghraib, on tape

reply to post by jsobecky


TY

I don't want our guys to be guilty of such things.

Since the US Army has already tried and convictied 12 US Soldiers in courts martial proceedings and none of them were convicted of rape, I seriously doubt that US personel were involved in any rapes. That would be a crime the US Army would punished very harshly as they did with these soldiers that were convicted of rape.

cnnwire.blogs.cnn.com... -of-rape-murder/

reply to post by Maxmars

So the dance begins. I'm sure the tape will tell. If we ever have it as evidence.

Well all this conjecture isn't going to get us anywhere.

Have to wait for the evidence to surface.

Sorry this whole mess makes me literally sick,

Should have just left Saddam in rulership of his hell.

reply to post by _Phoenix_

Originally posted by _Phoenix_
In the end I don't give a crap where the people are from, it's wrng either way, they are individuals and are responsible for their own actions, they do not speak for all of the US or Iraq.

[edit on 14-5-2009 by _Phoenix_]

Well, there are people who *do* give a crap, including myself. There are people here who would automatically hang everyone from GWB to GI Joe for the rapes, just so long as the ones that get hung are American.

It's nice to know who the actual guilty parties are in cases like that.

[edit on 14-5-2009 by jsobecky]

Originally posted by Stormdancer777
reply to post by jsobecky

 

TY

I don't want our guys to be guilty of such things.

But that's the thing, they are not really "your" guys, do you know them?

They are individuals who are responisble for their own actions, you or your entire country should not be held responsible, only those behind these actions should.

Originally posted by DarkStormCrow
Since the US Army has already tried and convictied 12 US Soldiers in courts martial proceedings and none of them were convicted of rape, I seriously doubt that US personel were involved in any rapes. That would be a crime the US Army would punished very harshly as they did with these soldiers that were convicted of rape.

cnnwire.blogs.cnn.com... -of-rape-murder/

I hope and suspect you are right.

reply to post by _Phoenix_


You know what I meant.

Some people are a little to quick on the trigger when passing judgement, we haven't seen anything yet.

I really hate this.

reply to post by smallpeeps


Yes my dear friend! this was an unfortunately event that America & the West can't erase the importance of anytime soon!

And I feel very sorry for all the great American people, and my American friends that I know personally!

This is soo wrong it can be!

Do you guys understand what this mean?

Muslims all over the world already knows about this, this is one of the resons why they hate USA & the west from their hearts, this is why it's so easy for them to recruit now for the Mujahedeen and AQ.

For a muslim! this is the worst disgrace & hell scenario you could paint for him.

No wonder why they wish all America & West to hell!

And the worst part is that some people here at ATS who don't understand what this mean, how the rest of the world looks at America & the West now.

Some very few evil people and corrupted politicians have destroyed the good name of America & the West, and what it stood for!

Don't you guys see what these few people have destroyed in our names?

It makes me sad & depressed to know that such a small group of people have destroyed the world through their evil agenda and actions

it's up to you people! on how you want to shape the future for your children - these things need to stop now!

These people all the way to the top, need to apologize to you, those childrens families, to every one on Earth for what they have done to the world.

So that we can begin anew, and start with a clean slate to build up this world again together!

We can't continue like this - we have to stop the torture!

The madness must stop!! - no more wars based on lies!!


[edit on 15-5-2009 by Chevalerous]

Originally posted by jsobecky
reply to post by _Phoenix_

 

Originally posted by _Phoenix_
In the end I don't give a crap where the people are from, it's wrng either way, they are individuals and are responsible for their own actions, they do not speak for all of the US or Iraq.

[edit on 14-5-2009 by _Phoenix_]

Well, there are people who *do* give a crap, including myself. There are people here who would automatically hang everyone from GWB to GI Joe for the rapes, just so long as the ones that get hung are American.

It's nice to know who the actual guilty parties are in cases like that.

[edit on 14-5-2009 by jsobecky]

Yes there are people here who think like that.

One reason is because they do give a crap where they are from, instead of looking deeper, at the source, "the individual"

I cannot judge humans as a group, because each human is unique, we should be judged as individuals.

Originally posted by Stormdancer777
reply to post by _Phoenix_

 

You know what I meant.

Some people are a little to quick on the trigger when passing judgement, we haven't seen anything yet.

I really hate this.

If you mean people will use this as an excuse to hate all US soldiers etc. Then yeah I understand your worry.

Originally posted by DarkStormCrow
Since the US Army has already tried and convictied 12 US Soldiers in courts martial proceedings and none of them were convicted of rape, I seriously doubt that US personel were involved in any rapes. That would be a crime the US Army would punished very harshly as they did with these soldiers that were convicted of rape.

cnnwire.blogs.cnn.com... -of-rape-murder/

Don't you understand the seriousness about this?

There are documents with Rummys signature on how all this torture agenda was implemented, he even handpicked special people and tough commanders who could implement the torture both at Gitmo & Abu Ghraib.

Those guys that went to prison were just the scape-goats, the torture was implemented by the Bush administration at higher level

No one is completely innocent here!!


[edit on 15-5-2009 by Chevalerous]

reply to post by _Phoenix_

If you mean people will use this as an excuse to hate all US soldiers etc. Then yeah I understand your worry.

Yes, and Americans in general.

You know?

Originally posted by Stormdancer777
reply to post by _Phoenix_

 

If you mean people will use this as an excuse to hate all US soldiers etc. Then yeah I understand your worry.

Yes, and Americans in general.

You know?

Yeah, that would be like people thinking arabs in general are like terrorists.

Just a stupid way of thinking.

Originally posted by Chevalerous

Don't you understand the seriousness about this?

There are documents with Rummys signature on how all this torture agenda was implemented, he even handpicked special people and tough commanders who could implement the torture both at Gitmo & Abu Ghraib.

Those guys that went to prison were just the scape-goats, the torture was implemented by the Bush administration and the CIA at higher level

They can't just clean their hands of this awful disgrace!

No one is innocent here!!

[edit on 14-5-2009 by Chevalerous]

Show us the documents that show what you say is true link us to your sources.

Originally posted by _Phoenix_

Originally posted by jsobecky


Just so the record reflects the facts:


www.salon.com...

(Update: A reader brought to our attention that the rape of boys at Abu Ghraib has been mentioned in some news accounts of the prisoner abuse evidence. The Telegraph and other news organizations described "a videotape, apparently made by US personnel, is said to show Iraqi guards raping young boys."

Rape rooms were quite common under Saddam. It is not unreasonable to believe that these rapes, if true, were committed by Iraqis.

Yes, not unreasonable.

But it is also not unreasonable that these rapes, if true, were commited by US soldiers. If we go by the behaviour in these pictures.www.antiwar.com...

In the end I don't give a crap where the people are from, it's wrong either way, they are individuals and are responsible for their own actions, they do not speak for all of the US or Iraq.


[edit on 14-5-2009 by _Phoenix_]

Either way, Coalition forces were in control of that area, they were responsible for maintaining law and order in the prisons they controlled.

I may have to research the Geneva Convention to state with more authority, but I am almost certain than any occupying force has a duty under international law to protect and serve the innocent civilians of any territory they occupy.

This scenario would be the responsibility of the military commanders in control of the region. Thereby, in an American controlled prison, American forces and the American government are responsible for the events that took place there.

Lets just pretend that it was Iraqi soldiers having done this in the American controlled prison, how did this happen? Why has nothing been said about it prior to this? And what happened to those found to be committing such atrocities?

If you answer ANY of those truthfully you come to the same conclusion, the Bush govt. needs to face charges, as do all military staff who knew what was happening, or were complicit.

Regardless of who did it, it happened under US control.

reply to post by detachedindividual


All good points. I understand what you mean.

Peace.

Originally posted by DarkStormCrow
(Update: A reader brought to our attention that the rape of boys at Abu Ghraib has been mentioned in some news accounts of the prisoner abuse evidence. The Telegraph and other news organizations described "a videotape, apparently made by US personnel, is said to show Iraqi guards raping young boys." The Guardian reported "formal statements by inmates published yesterday describe horrific treatment at the hands of guards, including the rape of a teenage Iraqi boy by an army translator.")

From the article posted by the op it appears that the rapes ,if they occured were done by Iraqi guards not US guards, (not that that reduces culpability of American personel that where involved in the abuse photos.)

Seynour Hersh made these allegations back in 2004 during the presidential elections, after they elections this story was never followed up and never revealed his scources for his story, Seymour Hersh has a habit since the days of the Vietnam war of not revealing his sources, he is very anti military. I would take the above story with a healthy dose of skepticism, I am not saying there were not abuses the photos prove that there were, the individuals involved were punished.

The question for me here is at what level of command were these actions approved if they were approve at all. There are conflicting stories about the other photos that have have not yet been released, one report says they are worse than the already posted photos in the links posted by the op, and other reports say they are not as bad.

As a veteran this episode was really saddening to me. It is a large black mark on the US Army , that being said I cant see a good reason to release more photos of these incidents, the only purpose served by such a release would be a political witch hunt and to inflame anti US sentiment in the world.

You can try to spin it anyway you like! - looking at all those photos make you wonder if US personal or contractors were involved in these atrocities or not.

But I don't want to think those thoughts - who did this?

And I seriously doubt that Iraqi soldiers would be allowed to videotape and take photos freely inside of Abu Ghraib?

And I don't think there was any Iraqi personal at Abu Ghraib 2003 - only American personal or contractors - sorry!

And I'm not worried, I'm sure the truth will come out of this some day!


[edit on 15-5-2009 by Chevalerous]

The "leaked" photos are still the ones implementing SPC. Graner in his role in abu ghraib. Releasing more photos would only make us pay twice for the same thing. In 2003 we where all targets because of the actions of a few morons. I know that was a little off topic but i've been meaning to say it for a while now.

Any one who has been to Iraq knows the men there have a saying: Women are for babies, men are for pleasure. I've even seen a man making out with a boy that looked in his lower teens over there. I'm not saying they are all like that or anything like that but if you tell me an Iraqi guard did something like this I would believe it. As far as an American soldier doing this? I'd have a hard time believing it.*** With the exception of course being the perverts that were convicted by court-martial.***

*** For the guy above me. There were Iraqi guards in Abu Ghraib and the video in question was on a security camera. CIA and U.S. correction officers can't cover every inch of the prison in person 24 hours a day. Nice try...Mate***

[edit on 14-5-2009 by TheEndofEvolution]

[edit on 14-5-2009 by TheEndofEvolution]

Originally posted by DarkStormCrow

Originally posted by Chevalerous

Don't you understand the seriousness about this?

There are documents with Rummys signature on how all this torture agenda was implemented, he even handpicked special people and tough commanders who could implement the torture both at Gitmo & Abu Ghraib.

Those guys that went to prison were just the scape-goats, the torture was implemented by the Bush administration and the CIA at higher level

They can't just clean their hands of this awful disgrace!

No one is innocent here!!

[edit on 14-5-2009 by Chevalerous]

Show us the documents that show what you say is true link us to your sources.

Here you have it my friend!

TURNING TO TORTURE IN A ‘NATION OF LAW’


The single sheet of paper that forms the starting point for Torture Team: Deception, Cruelty and the Compromise of Law is the now infamous memorandum signed on 2 December 2002 by then US Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, authorizing a variety of, as the memo itself puts it, ‘counter-resistance techniques

- - -

Secretary Rumsfeld's memo was declassified a few weeks after the Abu Ghraib torture scandal broke in 2004. The administration – in damage limitation rather than investigative mode – had aimed to persuade the media and public that the abuses at Abu Ghraib were not the result of government policies but rather aberrations that proved the rule. The ‘rule’ was President Bush's directive contained in another memorandum – dated 7 February 2002 and released in June 2004 along with the Rumsfeld memo and a few other documents – that all detainees in US custody would, ‘as a matter of policy’, be treated humanely, ‘including those who are not legally entitled to such treatment’. This line alone speaks volumes about the Bush administration's philosophy as, of course, no such detainee exists. Under international human rights and humanitarian law, all detainees must, at all times, in all locations, and by all agencies, be protected from inhumane treatment.

jhrp.oxfordjournals.org...

[edit on 14-5-2009 by Chevalerous]

I am not in favor of torture period.

BUT even if there is a justification for it... there is none for this.

AND it doesn't matter whether it was done by American troops which is certainly the assumption (and that is what the original reports suggested several years ago) or by Iraqi's working for Americans as Josbecky suggested;

since it happened while we controlled the prison, because we were in charge, we are responsible.