Hersh: Children sodomized at Abu Ghraib, on tape

Originally posted by Sonya610
reply to post by usamaizm

 

Realize in all likelihood the actual RAPISTS are in fact Iraqi's. That means Muslim by birth.

it is unlikely. there were videos and photos taken. the boy was 16 or so years old.

there was also a woman that was what appeared to be an act of rape. not sure if it was concentual. the records did not indicate.

Originally posted by miasria

Originally posted by Sonya610
reply to post by usamaizm

 

Realize in all likelihood the actual RAPISTS are in fact Iraqi's. That means Muslim by birth.

it is unlikely. there were videos and photos taken. the boy was 16 or so years old.

there was also a woman that was what appeared to be an act of rape. not sure if it was concentual. the records did not indicate.

well ,. what the u.s army documents is just a tip of the ice berg of what realy has been going on.

i guess the answer to the question is quite obvius , there are so many "bad apples in a bunch" theres no point documenting it all , because of the "consent" between soildiers.

Originally posted by zerbot565

one thing to also keep in mind. when we take prisoners, it is our responsibility to ensure their safety and that laws are followed.

the book that i have is "the road to abu ghraib... the torture papers." this is a 3" thick book. i believe these were sworn affidavits that i read. this was correrated and there are photos and videos.

torture was very common at this facility. by a few? no. they ran many intellgence agencies through.. all with their own job to do. it's unfortunate that those who were sentanced were at the bottom of the pole.

there is a video out too. i watched it not long ago. interviews with those who were sentanced.. and some who were not. iwww.youtube.com...

do i support America & our troops...? yes, very much.

i don't however support this sort of conduct, nor those who participate in such. they should be held accountable.

Originally posted by miasriatorture was very common at this facility. by a few? no. they ran many intellgence agencies through.. all with their own job to do. it's unfortunate that those who were sentanced were at the bottom of the pole.

Yes it is unfortunate. But then again those that were sentenced were taking PICTURES of themselves doing it. Perhaps the higher ups were a little less stupid than to document their crimes and film and leave it around as a "cool souvenier".

Originally posted by Sonya610....But then again those that were sentenced were taking PICTURES of themselves doing it. Perhaps the higher ups were a little less stupid than to document their crimes and film and leave it around as a "cool souvenier".

bingo!

Mod Note: One Line Post – Please Review This Link.

[edit on 5/18/2009 by AshleyD]

sadly, from what a few stated in the above mentioned video, many intelligence personnel who came through there did not, nor required to identify themselves completely. one agency was not even identified.... imagine that.

some of the prisoners that they ran through there were also "off the books"

there was undoubtedly some heavy stuff going on there.

now, it begs to question.... what are they hiding with the release of these photos and videos? further arrests? some of the stories from those prosecuted clearly indicate that those higher up knew about it. in fact one officer commanded that they dispose of every photo, video, audio that was out there.

a coverup that got away....

how often does this happen?

keep in mind, this was calculated, daily activity that was going on. it wasn't a reaction or rage response. those cases would at least be understandable. what these guys were doing at abu ghraib was nothing more than cruel americans who obviously had the upper hand and control.

as americans, we should not condone this sort of behavior. as a country, we are being viewed as the smoke and mirrors that those in intel are trying to convey. it's blown up in our faces. we don't want our own demons getting out to the world, yet we demonize at will.. then bully.

there is another side to not releasing those photos. it means we are guilty, we're hiding it ... and we're hypocrites.

undoubtedly they have weighed the cost. one this that disturbs me is the fact that intel and the military have made strong arguments. i can see their reasoning behind.. that being said however, how many of their own people at the top or middle would go down if the truth got out?

it's more than national security. i believe they are protecting their own. that don't want this rehashed.

"The torture and ill treatment of prisoners which is carried out with the authority of some Government constitutes not only a crime against humanity, but also a crime against moral law"

UN Human Rights Council

The Rule of Law is a key component!

Preserving the Rule of Law and recognition of an individual's liberty constitutes an important component in the safeguarding apparatus and in constitutions all over the world!

So, why doesn't the Republic of America follow the Rule of Law?

Why don't they prosecute these criminals and bring justice to the world? and by doing so, having also a fair chance of saving their face?

The Geneva convention & the Hauge War Tribunal says: when a goverment or country fails to prosecute their own people against torture and war crimes against the humanity - The tribunal can take jurisdiction and ask for their extradition for war crimes.

Well I think I know the answer why they are not prosecuting them in America!

You see! while after the confusion of 9/11 they fooled both the public and legal systems with writing both the patriot act and a torture Law into American Law (to be able to interrogate prisoners - and try to get a tie to Iraq with AQ).

But Legal experts in the U.S warned both Bush & Blair by doing so you also acknowledging this to the whole world, and therefore if war crimes against the humanity happens TO INNOCENT PRISONERS and they can prove this - you could end up in the Hauge War Tribunal with crimes against the humanity according to the Geneva Convention.

All of the allied countries including Spain and Switzerland have special international jurisdiction rights to do so!

"Two years ago, former Bush Administration Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld hurriedly fled France, fearing he would be arrested by French authorities for "ordering and authorizing" the torture of detainees at Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq and the U.S. facilities at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba."

This is why Rummy got panic when he saw those photos 2004.

current.com...

Spain considers prosecuting U.S. officials for torture

How and why a Spanish judge might put Bush administration lawyers on trial for actions at Guantanamo Bay.

The Spanish case targets the government lawyers -- including former Atty. Gen. Alberto R. Gonzales -- whose legal opinions laid the groundwork for so-called harsh interrogations. Why the lawyers?

When the administration decided to move to aggressive techniques, it seems they turned to lawyers who could be relied upon to sign on. They systematically excluded from the process those lawyers who would have given contrary advice. But for the lawyers, these abuses, this torture, would not have happened. So the administration got bad advice from lawyers; they didn't have to take it. Why does that make the lawyers guilty?

The lawyers appear to have been part of a plan to subvert the law. First the administration fixed on a policy of cruelty, then they found the lawyers to sign off on it. On my reading, the lawyers acted not in the service of providing fearless, independent legal advice, but provided support to a predetermined policy of abuse. In that way, they became complicit in a policy of torture. Is there legal precedent in going after the lawyers?

www.latimes.com...

See! the international process has already begun!

Wouldn't the best for the American Republic be, to do it at home under the Rule of Law and reverse those neocon laws and prosecute those responsable?

Because if you don't - the republic is fallen & gone! - and you have a Dictatorship without the rule of law!


I'll end this with some quotes regarding the Rule of Law!

"America cannot hold itself as a moral beacon to the world if it violates the rule of law by engaging in illegal spying, torture and secrecy. The ACLU is committed to making sure that our government complies with universally recognized human rights principles and upholds our Constitution."

Jamil Dakwar


"This is the last chance for us to pave the rule of law and the constitutional process. We're saying we can't stop the people."

Alan Peter Cayetano


"There are those who argue that the concept of human rights is not applicable to all cultures. We in the National League for Democracy believe that human rights are of universal relevance. But even those who do not believe in human rights must certainly agree that the rule of law is most important. Without the rule of law there can be no peace."

Daw Aung San Suu Kyi : at UN Human Rights


“When freedom does not have a purpose, when it does not wish to know anything about the rule of law engraved in the hearts of men and women, when it does not listen to the voice of conscience, it turns against humanity and society.”

Pope John Paul II


"The clearest way to show what the rule of law means to us in everyday life is to recall what has happened when there is no rule of law.”

Dwight David Eisenhower


“Freedom prospers when religion is vibrant and the rule of law under God is acknowledged”

Ronald Reagan


"Wherever Law ends, Tyranny begins"

John Locke


"I think that the real problem comes with a President who does not understand the rule of law. ..."

"The rule of law must apply to politicians, to governments and to state officials as much as it does to private citizens. A government department can be taken to a court of law if it has exceeded its authority, as government officials in Britain are very well aware. A just law is the best defence not only against over-mighty individuals, but against an over-mighty State."

"But it is not just enough to pass legislation in order to have a rule of law. People have to know that it will be enforced and upheld by independent and impartial judges. That is true of the criminal law: the citizens will not respect and obey it if they lack faith in the judicial system."

"The rule of law has grown up over the centuries. In our country, it began with the idea of redressing grievances and of fairness, with the idea that noone could be held for an indefinite period before being brought publicly before a court of law."

Margaret Thatcher

Peace!



[edit on 19-5-2009 by Chevalerous]

The sexual predators who did these vile, horrible acts to little boys and women should be prosecuted and imprisoned themselves. I'd also prefer if they were castrated and forced to register as sex offenders. The victims of these crimes will never be normal again. They will need counseling.

And as far as the perpetrators are concerned, why did they do it? If they were ordered to do it, how can someone with a good conscience do something like that? Why didn't they quit?

Whether the photos or videos are released or not, if foreigners, especially muslims, already have a gist of the info, they will still hate us, and deservedly so.

Americans are bullies. The whole reason Iraq hates us is because we invaded their country for no good reason, and gave them a puppet leader, with America holding the strings. We cannot and should not attempt to be the world's policemen. They all resent us meddling in their countries' affairs, and have said so. Stop the occupation in Iraq, and pull everybody out right now, like you promised, Obama.

If we want other nations to stop hating us, stop invading their countries and torturing people. If you don't release the photos, they will still hate you, that is YOU, the US military. I do not deserve to be hated.

I do not deserve to be hated.

I would never hate you! and why should I? you seems to be a nice person and well informed about the situation. And you don't torture people - do you!?

Most of the educated modern world knows that only a quarter of the U.S population are the nutty ones! and we know that most of the Americans certainly, are very nice and great people & friends.

So I think you can relax a little about that, but of course that also depends of which part of the world we are talking about!

If you go to Europe and say you're pro torture and similar, I guess people will just roll their eyes shaking their heads while saying; that poor soul is apparently just beyond any help - from the indoctrination scheme they put him/her through!

But you OTOH who know the truth and are awake, would find many friends much easier with similar thoughts than the typical 'arrogant-pro torture-kick the worlds ass' type of person!

But all of the American people are still very warm welcomed here in Europe regardless of personal political views, and I think there's no problem what so ever vacationing & traveling here at least.

It's like in the U.S! if you are nice to people, they are nice back - common sence when you are a guest & tourist!

The only places in the world you should take extra care to stay safe is when traveling to one of the many Arabic/Muslim countries in the middle east & Asia, and even there I think that most of them have their anger primarely against the politicians of the U.S and not against the average American people.

That would be just stupid and ignorant of them, but unfortunately this also happens sometimes in countries with less education.

But I think there are not many Americans going there for vacationing these days I guess!

I don't have much to say about this... right now... anyway. I am so disgusted and angry I am shaking while typing this. I have no idea how this escaped me way back in 2004, maybe it was intentional ignorance on my part, maybe it was that I was taking care of my baby boy and just was not on the ball. But this makes me sick. My heart sinks when I think about the furture of my child and my country if we are not able to retify this, how I don't know. But we must.
I am a full metal Obama supporter but one of my reasonings for supporting him was his pledge to dig out this torture rot that is festering in the soul of the Constitution. His backpedaling on this makes me seriously question him. No one said it was going to me easy to correct and I will (and SHOULD) get ugly for those involved. But such is the price you pay when you degrade yourself, your victim and humanity.

This is one of those areas I can see the real conservatives and the real liberals marching shoulder to shoulder on screaming "FIX THIS NOW". Anyone with a soul should be completely horrified, if you're not, you're not human.

Off to contemplate what I can do.
Obs out

reply to post by Layla


I think they should be released so that people living in "those in charge are 100% in it for our interests, the gov is always right" lala land need a smack upside the head.

People need to get angry. People need to put a stop to hurting other people to further sick political and personal agendas.

Humanity is only divided into nations and causes because it benefits the few who have convinced the rest that it's the way to go. We are all brothers and sisters. Get rid of nationalism and borders and punish evil and pain via incineration the cheap and effective solution to ridding the earth of the causes of our suffering.

reply to post by Chevalerous

In response to your reply, I am a nice person, and no, I don't torture people! I am a sensitive person, I guess. It bothers me that someone, like muslims in a middle eastern country, would hate me. I just thought they all hated all Americans.

Although I'm disturbed and upset and angry about these disgusting sex acts and whatnot, I am afraid that if they are released, people in other countries will see them and hate Americans more. Especially US soldiers, who will be more likely to be attacked because of them.

I don't know if many people now would admit to favor torture, or be pro-torture, especially now that these photos might come out.

I don't plan to visit the Middle East anytime soon, because I don't really have the desire to. Too much desert. I like it here in the northwest region of the USA, where everything's green. Mountains, rivers, canyons, etc. Much prettier I imagine than over there.

I have kind of a dumb question for you-what is that thing supposed to be in your picture? It looks like a monstrous kid and a rabbit with gas masks on. Is that what it is?


[edit on 21-5-2009 by muffingirl]

Originally posted by muffingirl
reply to post by Chevalerous

 

I have kind of a dumb question for you-what is that thing supposed to be in your picture? It looks like a monstrous kid and a rabbit with gas masks on. Is that what it is?

No my friend, your question is not dumb!

it's a monstrous kid suffering from mutation and his bunny wearing gas masks because of the H1N1 PigBirdMan flu!

I dont know why these pictures are being called new because I remember seeing them long time back.

In my view the censored pictures should be revealed and the people responsible for the atrocities should be punished. Hiding truth will not help anyone sooner or later it will come out and USA govt. should accept their guilt and behave responsibly.

If USA gov. hides these pictures they have no ground/right to cry foul and accuse nations such as North Korea and Iran etc. that they treat ppl bad because they themselves are part of it.

Update?

Appeals court blocks release of detainee photos

www.msnbc.msn.com...

NEW YORK - The U.S. government can keep pictures of detainee abuse secret while it asks the Supreme Court to permanently block release of the photographs on the grounds they could incite violence in Afghanistan, Iraq and Pakistan, a federal appeals court said Thursday.

The one-paragraph ruling by the 2nd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in Manhattan came after the Obama administration asked the court to keep the pictures secret so it could appeal to the nation's highest court.

The administration last month said the disturbing photographs pose "a clear and grave risk of inciting violence and riots against American and coalition forces, as well as civilian personnel, serving in Iraq and Afghanistan."

Case closed?

This story was picked up again in December, but I can't tell if there have been actual developments or if it's being recycled as clickbait.

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