Hersh: Children sodomized at Abu Ghraib, on tape

reply to post by Chevalerous


This is vile. I think they ought to admit what they've done, the president shoudl apologize on behalf of our country and the footage should be destroyed. No one needs to see that. Disturbing. Disgusting. Why did they even video tape it? This is evil to the core and people really need to see that our government is capable of such things and of covering them up.

I just played monopoly with my son. I can't believe this.
This is like Nazi germany.
These are war crimes if this is true.
I gotta go will check back tomorrow.

It seems almost like a conspiracy when your nation claims to grab the moral high ground as the US has done (actually it was our elected politicians who did most of the flag-waving during the last 30 years). That is to say, there is always some nation who has the power and morally claims the high ground.

This is, of course, a setup for that nation and its people. And yes, America has been set up, right here.

Because surely any American fighting man or woman knows that things worse than this, have been done in warfare, since the dawn of time. But the trick is to make it look like the heroic nation, is actually the worst nation.

What I am saying is that it is our leaders and their generational handshaking and red/blue mask wearing that enables them to get in power and then claim the moral high ground --which their other hand is undermining.

So it is as if these two opposing ideas have to happen at the same time, that is to say in order to cause a real sh--storm to hit the nation in question, you have to make them look like the biggest hypocrites on Earth. They have to stand up and mightily claim the high ground morally, then they have to be exposed as having been doing the worst sort of things.

It works perfectly, because every politico gets to shrug their shoulders and blame Osama for everything. Osama is the best friend of the US Senate and Congress and Judiciary --at least on a personal concrete level. He allowed them all the perfect alibi under which to loot and wreck America as effectively as possible.

If America had kept its head, and not claimed the moral high ground in such an idiotic way, they wouldn't now be so mentally hamstrung on a world scene. We have set our selves up for this by believing our own message while the people paid and hired to run the store, get to wash their hands of the whole thing.

I am not sure what else can be said except, sorry? Sorry everyone. The US is full of good people but we've got some a--holes also and unfortunately they've been in charge for a while. Sorry about that. We'll get it right soon, honest.

Originally posted by itappearsthatway
Is this true? My first thought would I would leave America if we did this. I would give up my citizenship.
But I can't do that. I really need to know if this is true.
If this is true...is this true? Would our soldiers do that?

many of these soldiers are just out of high school, they still have much to learn about the world. the get out of school and straight into the service. and well, if there were orders passed down to them....which is what I want to know, then they are really put into a no win situation I think, or they more than likely see it that way...especially if they are relying on that service to get them out of Iraq and back home!!
We've punished at least some of those who may have just been following the orders of the higher ups...
I want the higher ups to take their medicine now!!

This is absolutely appalling. There are no words to describe.

I just can't understand the thought procress of these individuals to perpetrate such inhumane actions. And then to take pictures and videos of it all. I just don't get it.

I agree with others that these vids/pics should NOT be put out there but for those who are in position to sentence.

Originally posted by itappearsthatway

If this is true...is this true? Would our soldiers do that?

If they are human, then yes it's possible.

Give people power and there will always be those who abuse them, and there will always be those who enjoy violence, rape etc.

Just the thought of these children getting abused in front of women, as some sort of sick joke, makes me feel really sick.

I hope this is not true, but I know these things can happen.

[edit on 14-5-2009 by _Phoenix_]

Despicable.

Completely and utterly despicable.

Bush, Rumsfeld and their whole criminal enterprise need to charged with crimes against humanity.

These so called "soldiers" need to be court martialled. They can't use "I was just following orders" excuse anymore. It didn't work for the Nazis at Nuremberg, and it won't work for them.

Karma will be a bitch.

[edit on 14-5-2009 by kommunist]

Originally posted by DeadFlagBlues
reply to post by Maxmars

 

Have you considered that I might just be looking for clarity?

[edit on 14-5-2009 by DeadFlagBlues]

Forgive my presumption, I was evidently incorrect in thinking you were considering that there might be circumstances such as you asked that would justify the act. No offense intended.

Sounds like we finally have some evidence coming to light, these crimes must not go unpunished, all the way to the top.

Who is more gullible? ATS members automatically believing US Troops would do this OR....Seymour Hersch who was once called "The most gullible investigative journalist I have ever encountered" by a former JFK official, and a man who has made his career bashing the United States, even offering to defend Sadamm Hussein himself.

en.wikipedia.org...

Anyway I'm giving our soldiers the benefit of the doubt, before I consider believing this self-serving America hating "investigative journalist".

reply to post by smallpeeps


I am an optimist when it comes to America. Especially considering that those who attempt to hide facts are demonstrably fearful and cognizant of the nature of their deeds.

Understand, I do not claim to be shocked that such a thing could happen, we have far too many historical reasons to accept this as part of what happens in war. (Which is why it's so ironic that people don't consider this fact when we rush to war.)

Mankind's problem is our willingness to allow our political servants to narrow the focus of reality with their Madison Avenue/Hollywood tactics. We need to become smarter than the mass media, and fast.

I sense we are waking up, but I fear what more can go wrong while we rub the stupor out of our eyes.

Well, here,instead of second guessing here is the ACLU page and documents

www.aclu.org...

Torture Documents Released Under FOIA

The ACLU filed a request on Oct. 7, 2003, under the Freedom of Information Act demanding the release of information about detainees held overseas by the United States. While many documents have been released, many vital records are still being withheld by the government.

I haven't read through all of it yet.

(Update: A reader brought to our attention that the rape of boys at Abu Ghraib has been mentioned in some news accounts of the prisoner abuse evidence. The Telegraph and other news organizations described "a videotape, apparently made by US personnel, is said to show Iraqi guards raping young boys." The Guardian reported "formal statements by inmates published yesterday describe horrific treatment at the hands of guards, including the rape of a teenage Iraqi boy by an army translator.")

From the article posted by the op it appears that the rapes ,if they occured were done by Iraqi guards not US guards, (not that that reduces culpability of American personel that where involved in the abuse photos.)

Seynour Hersh made these allegations back in 2004 during the presidential elections, after they elections this story was never followed up and never revealed his scources for his story, Seymour Hersh has a habit since the days of the Vietnam war of not revealing his sources, he is very anti military. I would take the above story with a healthy dose of skepticism, I am not saying there were not abuses the photos prove that there were, the individuals involved were punished.

The question for me here is at what level of command were these actions approved if they were approve at all. There are conflicting stories about the other photos that have have not yet been released, one report says they are worse than the already posted photos in the links posted by the op, and other reports say they are not as bad.

As a veteran this episode was really saddening to me. It is a large black mark on the US Army , that being said I cant see a good reason to release more photos of these incidents, the only purpose served by such a release would be a political witch hunt and to inflame anti US sentiment in the world.

RELEASED: The Bush Administration's Secret Legal Memos

On April 16, 2009, the Department of Justice released four secret memos used by the Bush administration to justify torture.
Read the release >>

www.aclu.org...

This demands action. I've drafted a letter, faxed and sent a note via the White House website, reading,

Dear Mr. President,

Is it policy to protect the previous administrations failings? If the Abu Ghraib rumors about rape and sodomy of children are true and you're hiding these details from the public. Rest assured you've lost my vote.

Furthermore, in doing so, you prove yourself no better than those who committed the crime. Withholding evidence is an act of exoneration, preventing the accused from being tried, judged, and punished.

Sharpening the pitchfork,
#######

I encourage everyone to do the same.

Originally posted by detachedindividual
This is sickening.

Now I understand why Obama doesn't want this out, this would, in one single strike, create thousands, if not millions, of potential threats to America.

This would radicalize many.

BUT!

Obama should release the information (not any images or identities), and he should state, without any shadow of doubt, that the Bush administration, all of them, will face charges.

I agree 100%. If this is the real information. Mass arrests and public trials should take place first. Obama should indicate the gravity of the situation to the American public and indicate justice will be served, preparing the public for the ultimate release of the information during the trial. The photos might not have to be released to the general public, as long as the people understand why they can't see the information. Really Obama is the only one that could pull off a speech of apology on this level.

reply to post by DarkStormCrow

From the article posted by the op it appears that the rapes ,if they occured were done by Iraqi guards not US guards, (not that that reduces culpability of American personel that where involved in the abuse photos.)

I see,

I remember Sy Hersh now.

Just so the record reflects the facts:


www.salon.com...

(Update: A reader brought to our attention that the rape of boys at Abu Ghraib has been mentioned in some news accounts of the prisoner abuse evidence. The Telegraph and other news organizations described "a videotape, apparently made by US personnel, is said to show Iraqi guards raping young boys."

Rape rooms were quite common under Saddam. It is not unreasonable to believe that these rapes, if true, were committed by Iraqis.

Edit: I see that DarkStormCrow has already brought this point up. As for "US personnel", that could be a lot of groups, not only soldiers. And before we assume their motive was complicity, we should also examine whether they were actually collecting evidence.

[edit on 14-5-2009 by jsobecky]

Originally posted by jsobecky


Just so the record reflects the facts:


www.salon.com...

(Update: A reader brought to our attention that the rape of boys at Abu Ghraib has been mentioned in some news accounts of the prisoner abuse evidence. The Telegraph and other news organizations described "a videotape, apparently made by US personnel, is said to show Iraqi guards raping young boys."

Rape rooms were quite common under Saddam. It is not unreasonable to believe that these rapes, if true, were committed by Iraqis.

Yes, not unreasonable.

But it is also not unreasonable that these rapes, if true, were commited by US soldiers. If we go by the behaviour in these pictures.www.antiwar.com...

In the end I don't give a crap where the people are from, it's wrong either way, they are individuals and are responsible for their own actions, they do not speak for all of the US or Iraq.


[edit on 14-5-2009 by _Phoenix_]

Originally posted by Stormdancer777
reply to post by DarkStormCrow

 

From the article posted by the op it appears that the rapes ,if they occured were done by Iraqi guards not US guards, (not that that reduces culpability of American personel that where involved in the abuse photos.)

I see,

I remember Sy Hersh now.

So the dance begins. I'm sure the tape will tell. If we ever have it as evidence.


[edit on 14-5-2009 by Maxmars]