Military Misconceptions

reply to post by dooper


What is nebulous about ponerology? Almost everyone I have ever talked to about it, in person, not online, accepts that at the very least it's a valid area of study, although not everyone is prepared to accept the world is ruled by psychopaths. It's basically just common sense, a bit of life experience and some psychology. The only thing new is the dressing up as a serious scientific theory, not the core idea. True, I do favour the idea that the higher you go the more psychopaths you find, and not everyone agrees with me there, but the basic idea seems sound. Almost everyone in a corporate workspace has come across a "little Hitler". And almost everyone accepts the notion that the original Hitler was a psychopath. Some of us just say there are a lot of them out there. This is ponerology.

Subjective evaluation by others of me is not something that really alters my spiel. However, the invitation is still open, focus on ponerology and the military and we talk.

To end with a question: You ended your post with "the rest of us know better". How many people are you speaking for and are they aware of this?

[edit on 16-5-2009 by Mindmelding]

reply to post by Mindmelding


Ponerology isn't exactly a science. It's a bastardization of numerous disciplines.

And a new phychology/group behavior fad will come along and this too, will pass.

As it should.

reply to post by Mindmelding


"Almost everyone in a corporate workspace has come across a "little Hitler"."

Sounds purely subjective. Most of the people I've worked with have been people, not monsters. In 20 years in the military, in "corporate America" and in University.

reply to post by Gawdzilla


That most, according to statistics proposed by the people who made ponerology a theory, would, statistically, tend be somewhere in the mid 80's to the 97%. I agree with that. It's the psychopathic minority mentioned that is the problem, because they tend to be ladder climbers.

reply to post by dooper


One man's basterdization is another man's interdisciplinarism. Where are your qualifications, or even arguments, for deciding what is valid scientific theory and what is not? I'm not saying you don't have any, but from where I'm standing it seems you're discarding it based on a pure negative emotional response.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

reply to post by Mindmelding


No. You're correct. I don't know * about it.

And based solely on your misapplication to the military, you apparently don't either.

Originally posted by Mindmelding
reply to post by Gawdzilla

 

That most, according to statistics proposed by the people who made ponerology a theory, would, statistically, tend be somewhere in the mid 80's to the 97%. I agree with that. It's the psychopathic minority mentioned that is the problem, because they tend to be ladder climbers.

You haven't provided any credible evidence that such a minority "tend" to high rank in the military. The military is a corporate structure with a bit of difference, actually performance is judged at all levels. Hard to be psychotic in that environment.

Short answer, you're making this all up and have no basis for your position.

Originally posted by Mindmelding
reply to post by Jenna

 

That's a fact I don't accept, because the whole institution is itself a creation of psychopaths. And indeed they do get noticed. They get recruited for areas like secret service, psy ops, cointelpro, death squads and other deep black "projects", which is a euphemism for psychopathic criminal behaviour.



I posted on this debate earlier, I'm the retired US Army Sergeant Major. I learned long ago to not argue with drunks or fools; but I do find parts of this debate rather humorous. I am the first to agree all militaries are a waste of lives and resources. But the same could be said about police departments; if everyone would just quit committing crimes, we wouldn't need all those policemen. Obviously not reality. I wish the human race could stop the need or desire for armed conflict, and we could eliminate most of the defense budget. (I'd keep some of the military around for natural disasters and the like). Then we could all sit around the campfire, holding hands and sing kum by ya. You know, while I'm at it, I wish the sunshine wouldn't give us skin cancer.

At least in our lifetime, we aren't going to stop the suns rays, crime and wars. I wish we could, but one has about as much chance of suceeding as the other. So what do we do? We take care of ourselves and our loved ones. I make sure my grandkids wear sunscreen, I'm overprotective and don't let them out of my sight, and I defend my country to try and insure those wars the posters on here condem that we took to another land, STAY in the other land, and not here. In case you haven't noticed, for as bad as you say we are, we haven't had a war on our land in about 150 years. Do we interfere in other countries affairs? Yup. But something that isn't said much is that by doing that, we have been fairly sucessful at taking the fight to them, rather than the other way around.

Our colleges are full of the liberal arts political science majors that know every answer to every ill this country has, but have zero real world experience. They gladly accept those federal loans and grants, and at the same time endlessly try to convivce people how corrupt and evil the government is. Do me a favor; go out and see the real world. See how many, many people in military uniform and government service do an enourmous amount of good, while not getting paid much, working their butts off, and hearing the "experts" like you tell them how bad they are.

And about being bad, and the psychopaths in things like special ops and psyop units. I was in both. My friends were some of the most stable, loyal. honest guys (and gals) you would ever meet. As for being a psychopath myself; I don't know. Maybe you could ask my grandkids. They are coming over shortly because they like to hang out with me.

reply to post by worldtraveler35


If you agree that the military are a waste of lives and resources, then your half way there. If you realise that a global group mind awareness of psychopathic behaviour patterns would relieve us of the need of the military, then you would be all the way there. I agree with you that we don't live in a world where we can contemplate that, but I do believe we have lived in that world before in our murky history and could live again. It's a question of dominant cultural memes, which define behaviour.

Ponerology is about a small minority of the population, remember that when you take to heart the criticism on the military. I too know that most military are honest and hardworking. I don't think them fools but I do think them missguided. I think the same of most corporate workers to be perfectly honest. The scenario is similar in the civil world.

When I say psychopathy is at the root of the creation of the military I am talking history and culture here. Organised military is the work of kings and noblemen, and probably scaled up from tribal leaders controlling the men of their villages. I think that it's probable that these early people that formed the first militaries did so motivated by psychopathic leader, much the same way that today false wars have been fought because of the lies of leaders.

Quick off topic edit about skin cancer: I would not be surprised if it were all lies. What causes cancer, imo, more than the sun, is our diet, our modern levels of toxicity in our environments and quite possibly eugenics through vaccinations, injecting us with what is basically genetic waste material. The sun gives us light, energy. It is our health which will turn that energy into either a good looking tan or, much much more rarely, a tumour. I could also go on for quite a while about health issues, but I just felt I had to say this so that such a matter of fact statement were not left unchallenged in it's supposed veracity. But that's another thread, should you chose to make it feel free to U2U me to participate in it.

[edit on 16-5-2009 by Mindmelding]

reply to post by Mindmelding

Think for a moment about what you just said.

You have any idea how the leaders of tribes, cultures, and nations came into being?

They weren't voted in!

The one with a strong right arm, a fierce sword, an eye for tactics, determination, vision, and courage WON that leadership!

Won in battle, among warriors, acting in defense of their own people.

Since time began, tribes met other tribes, and the either fought, or they joined, or they died.

Your hypothesis is much too sterile. It does not factor in the necessary variables.

Besides, it's not really a science.

reply to post by Gawdzilla


Evidence? Is not the current shambles the US military is envolved in and all the lies that got them there not indicative of a scenario similar to ponerology? I could take the time to get news articles that support my views, even full studies are available. But I prefer people to either reject my ideas or be stimulated enough by them to research for themselves. That choice is theirs and I don't like to distract from the flow of the text with a mountain of links. I'm not doing science here, just debating the topic. The science is out there, should you want to look, Gawdzilla.

reply to post by dooper


I have no idea? Anthropology as a science just vanished? I have some ideas. Sure, I don't know for sure, nobody does. But I do have theories. If you want me to go another step further I will add that I think ponerology is an evolution of the dominant male archetype which is so common with primates. This has been studied with chimpanzes and bonobos, the latter being peacefull the former being agressive. Male dominance hierarchy will breed for psychopathy in the long run, and I think our species evolutional branch has been living with this since the trees. The bonobos show there is another way, nature dosen't set things in stone, so I don't believe we should ever use an evolutionary theory as a validation, but it does show that primates to dominate the group will harm members of said group and other nearby groups. Whatever mutation gave us psychopaths found a niche in male dominance (and even female dominance I guess, there is also a alpha female and hierarchy).

Originally posted by Mindmelding
reply to post by Gawdzilla

 

Evidence? Is not the current shambles the US military is envolved in and all the lies that got them there not indicative of a scenario similar to ponerology? I could take the time to get news articles that support my views, even full studies are available. But I prefer people to either reject my ideas or be stimulated enough by them to research for themselves. That choice is theirs and I don't like to distract from the flow of the text with a mountain of links. I'm not doing science here, just debating the topic. The science is out there, should you want to look, Gawdzilla.

So, chalk up one "reject" on your tally sheet. You're not convincing, and you have no clue what you're talking about.

Given any perspective, one can find psychological/sociological/anthropological terminology and concepts to prove any point of view that one wishes.

Even opposing points of view can use the identical, same terminology and classifications.

After all, this is an area of study that attempts to explain observances. It's not analysis. Not in the true sense of the word, as there again, are far too many variables for conclusive determinations.

Take energy. We take a measurement, and assume our reading is correct. What you don't see in your observation, is that you are merely measuring an AVERAGE. And this is with the most precise of scientific measurements!

No. You have fun with it, tell yourself you are on to something, until you find the next fad in this arena.

You would include the supply personnel with the Special Forces, then compare with the Rangers, the SEALS, and there is no basis for comparison except the uniform they wear.

This is absolutely, scientifically, socially, and deterministically, NUTS.

Originally posted by dooper
reply to post by Mindmelding

 

Mindmelding, I give you the respect you are due when I state that your logic and your arguments are those that throughout the millennia originate from one characteristic.

Using technical terminology, non-supported analysis, conjecture, and outright ignorance of your subject matter, your posts clearly indicate you are cursed with that one characteristic.

Cowardice.

No big deal, but let's just go right ahead and call it what it is.

I served in the combat arms, and each of my four MOS's were all combat related, so I can't speak from a technical aspect for those who were brilliantly keeping us in the field.

But I do know that in the field, to be a soldier, it takes the greatest of courage to subordinate your own welfare and opportunity to survive, for you brothers in arms.

These men DAILY will risk their own lives to save those of their brothers. Unbelievable acts of selfless courage. Not on occasion.
Every damned day.

I'm glad you aren't in the military. Everything I read in your words indicate that everything in your life is about YOU.

And the military is a team effort, where men will share their last water, food, ammo, or even their last drop of blood for their brothers.

If you think that you have any idea of which you speak - you don't. I'm sorry, but you exhibit zero knowledge of the military, how it works, what it does, what values are universally held, nor what of the caliber of people therein.

Therefore, I regretfully, but not much, disregard your opinion on this topic.

Like listening to a nine-year old arguing the merits of the 1966 Corvette versus the 1966 AC Cobra.

You have no reference point.

[edit on 16-5-2009 by dooper]

Right on the money Dooper and Jenna.

What Mindmelding seems to not understand is that the military is the exact opposite of what he thinks. He's the last person I want in the military. Utter ignorance of the truths of military service. It's one thing you must experience to understand.

As a vet from the late 1960's, Sergeant E-5, MOS 67N20, I have listened to this type of thinking for so long that when I hear their anti-military blah blah blah, I just walk on shaking my head in disbelief. Clueless doesn't even come close. This kind of talk makes me happy that I am getting old!!!!!!!!! My 3 years of service in the US Army is one of the best choices I've ever made. Not one regret, EVER!!!

Mindmelding, the only force standing between our corrupt politicians/bankers and the American people is the "psychotic" United States Military made up of your brothers, sisters, mothers, fathers, son, daughters, uncles, aunts, nephews, nieces, teachers, pastors, and your next door neighbor. You're the one that appears a bit off kilter.

If/when the SHTF, you'd better be on your hands and knees praying that a General Smedley Butler type, will stand up and tell the politicians/elite, that enough is enough and if they continue to unconstitutionally abuse the rights of the American people, the United States Military will step in and stop the insane activities of our politicians.

The people can not do it themselves, the military must take the lead as they are the only savior of the American people. The United States Military leadership and its understanding of its obligation to protect and defend the American people as stated in their oath to protect and defend the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic, is our only hope. A domestic enemy can/may/will be politicians acting in an unconstitutional manner towards the people they represent. The pols will give their excuses and rationalities, but the military won't buy it.

Heck we have the Speaker of the House calling the CIA liars. She scored many point with those comments.

And as far as I am concerned, the political apparatus of the United States may think just like Mindmelding. You and our politicians need a wake up call!! The military is pretty good at it. Hopefully that day is not far off.

Dooper, the more I read your posts, the more respect I have for you.

And Jenna, the voice of reason, no comment is necessary.

Edited for spelling

[edit on 16-5-2009 by Oldnslo]

Nevermind..

[edit on 16-5-2009 by Ben Niceknowinya]

reply to post by Oldnslo


True, you do have to really experience it to understand and it is pretty apparent that Mindmelding knows not of what he speaks. The Army is something that is not for everyone and im glad that he isnt in. I have no regrets about what i do and i started this post to try and shed some light on the military since some people seem to think its this big dark thing. Some people cling so strongly to their beliefs though that there is no telling them otherwise. This guy wants to be hard headed and not even open his mind to the possibility that the military isnt led by psychopaths. If he has ever experienced the type of leadership we have, he would know otherwise. I say let him cling to his unvalidated and uneducated beliefs.

"Dooper, the more I read your posts, the more respect I have for you.

And Jenna, the voice of reason, no comment is necessary"

I second this, thanks for keeping a compitent handle on the situation!

To follow up on BrainPower's post:

The military is made up of people. They still have their souls, they don't eat babies, and they show up on film and in mirrors. They have, in most cases, chosen a hard job for good reasons. I'm glad we still have people doing that job, and I'm glad I helped make it possible for them to have a choice as to whether or not to carry on the tradition.

reply to post by Mindmelding


Mindmelding- I'm not halfway there on any of your abstract theories. I live in the real world. Sit behind your computer, drink your Starbucks, eat your vegan fare, and wear your Birkenstocks. Above all debate, debate, debate. Have the lofty ideas, try to convince the like minded folks you have all the answers.

I'll be where my country and my neighbors and my family needs me to be; probably behind a rifle, drinking tepid water, eating out of a brown envelope and wearing Army issued boots. But as I get older, I can look around with the satisfaction that, because of the incredible people I was lucky enough to have under my command, this is a pretty good life we have made and maintained. One of those, been there, done that, but on a grand scale.

As George Orwell said, "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

No doubt, your response will be we don't stand ready on your behalf, you never asked us to. But we do, because the constitutional processes in this country. Is this system perfect? No. But it's the best there is. If your abstract theories were so good, a majority would agree, and the country would be led by people like you. But it's not. That should give you a hint.

reply to post by Mindmelding


Whether you accept it or not, those are the facts. Something that has been tested and proven true for decades bears more weight with me than something that was created in the last five years or so to sell a book. Especially when I have yet to find any reference to this so called science anywhere that doesn't use said book as it's sole reference or seek to sell it.

I would think that someone that lives and breathes the military day in and day out for years would have a much better grasp of what the military is and is about than someone who has never spent a day in their shoes. But I'll bite, why do you think there is a secret military within the military that's sole purpose is to promote psychopaths to the top?

The people you have ran into were more than likely narcissistic not psychopaths. Narcissists have the delusions of grandeur and power seeking tendencies, not psychopaths.




Oldnslo and BrainPower - Thanks guys for the kind words.