Military Misconceptions

reply to post by Mindmelding


"There are no benefits to war."

True, but not fighting, lying doggo, when somebody wants to walk over you, is not an option either. I've never enjoyed fighting, but I never failed to do so when called.

reply to post by Gawdzilla


Perhaps you should give more attention to who is calling and what you are really fighting for?

Just an idea...

reply to post by Mindmelding


I can’t put into words how elated I would be if there was no need for military forces. Unfortunately, no matter how you attempt to rationalize your comments, military force is a necessity in today’s day and age. You can complain all you want about your interpretation of the “reality of it”. It will not change the fact that military is necessary.

(Of course the military won’t be needed if you can solve the “chicken or the egg” paradox…do we tear down our defenses and let anyone come take over? Do you think China will tear down their defenses first? Do you really think it will create a better world for us all or do you think you may need to learn Chinese first? Maybe it is you failing to see the “underlying reality of it.”)

Imagine a country as a single man. The military would be his gun. This gun can be used for protecting himself and his family against a serious threat or death. The same man could also go out and burglarize his neighbor using this gun. The gun IS a tool. It is a tool that can be used for justified or unjustified action, depending on the owner.

Who this owner is, depends on you (if you’re a citizen in the US)…and me…and all of us to make sure “We the People” are properly represented. It is YOU (along with all citizens) who choose the actions of our military. The military does not just up and decide willy nilly to go invade a country. It is a controlled force. I think it is important for you to understand this concept and redirect your resentment to those who decide what to do with the military.

On an individual level, soldiers are subject to scrutiny and punishment just as easily, if not easier, than civilians. There are global laws to follow for which a soldier can be held accountable.

Romanticized or not, I joined the military to do my part to provide a better world for my son and daughter to live in. I can only hope that the effects were positive in the end and my abilities were used to promote a better world.

And last I checked, I’m not a psychopath and let me search my soul…..yep…no shame…

Originally posted by Mindmelding
reply to post by Gawdzilla

 

Perhaps you should give more attention to who is calling and what you are really fighting for?

Just an idea...

Okay, I'm a stupid thug that mindlessly takes orders, without consideration of what they imply or how they will affect the world at large. My knuckles drag the ground except when I'm raising my rifle to bayonet babies thrown into the air. My single eyebrow is perched on the precipice of my forehead. I enjoy killing just for the hell of it, and anyone or anything thing that gets in my way is dead, dead, dead. After I rape them, of course. Or maybe before, I seldom stop to check.

Or something like that, anyway.

reply to post by Lumpyloaf


Ironically, if by chance anyone were a psychopath he or she would be unable to feel shame and would have no qualms about lieing about their nature. That is what psychopathy is, an inexistence of emotion and empathy and consequently scruples.

I personally feel most people in the military, as in everywhere else, are good regular people. It's just that they haven't realised that there really is no need for the military, that it's all just smoke and mirrors. That they are missguided.

If you want to read up on why, just google ponerology. This will give you the sort of worldview that explains why military, from the get go, will always be a failed institution that will not do what it is supposed to setup to do. The real psychopaths are probably way above your rank my friend.

And, on a personal note, I just don't understand how you stomach being betas in a hierarchical structure. That alone is enough for me to not want anything to do with the military. Why would I want to limit my own freewill voluntarily to a hierarchical structure run for goals which are not even clear and honest? I am my own military and, for once, it can be truthfully said I am a pure (self)defense force.

reply to post by Gawdzilla


I never said or even implied that. Smart people get fooled and missguided all the time. But that angry reaction of yours is something you should introspect on. Generally when people say something that makes us react like that it is either one of two things: either it's slander and/or falsehood, and to be rejected, or they are telling us one of those life changing truths that scare us in the implications.

Again, how you chose to interpret is your choice. I'm not here to live people's lives for them.

Originally posted by Mindmelding
reply to post by Gawdzilla

 

I never said or even implied that. Smart people get fooled and missguided all the time. But that angry reaction of yours is something you should introspect on. Generally when people say something that makes us react like that it is either one of two things: either it's slander and/or falsehood, and to be rejected, or they are telling us one of those life changing truths that scare us in the implications.

Again, how you chose to interpret is your choice. I'm not here to live people's lives for them.

It wasn't an angry reaction, it was simply disrepectful of the trite position that all military people are dupes and killers. It's simply absurd. I was laughing as I posted that.

reply to post by Gawdzilla


Dupes or psychopaths would be the exact position I was defending. Psychopaths are usually quite cowardly and rarely violent, which is why the more violent ones probably get further up the psychopathic social ladder and we end up with things like satanic rituals and child sacrifices and molestations...

Maybe in time you'll snap out of it, out of the gullible belief in the validity of the military. One can but hope. I'm more or less done here, so feel free to have the last word


[edit on 15-5-2009 by Mindmelding]

Originally posted by dooper

We have the brightest military we've ever had, and by God, we've had some good ones, as many of our former enemies can attest.



[edit on 14-5-2009 by dooper]

Handing out Bibles to MUSLIMS.
Torturing Iraqis and taking photographs of it?
Teaching Iraqi kids to say "Iraq sucks!" ?

Really?

Their intelligence is beyond amazement?

If that's what you call INTELLIGENCE, then wow, I've been wrong all my life.

good post OP, I really get pissed when people talk negatively about our troops. I say step up or shut up! dont be an arm chair commander, get out there and make a difference, all your complaining only hurts morale.
I really wish I would have joined the military when I was younger, and really appreciate the hard work they put in to keep us safe, in our cozy houses.

Originally posted by Mindmelding
reply to post by Gawdzilla

 

Dupes or psychopaths would be the exact position I was defending. Psychopaths are usually quite cowardly and rarely violent, which is why the more violent ones probably get further up the psychopathic social ladder and we end up with things like satanic rituals and child sacrifices and molestations...

Maybe in time you'll snap out of it, out of the gullible belief in the validity of the military. One can but hope. I'm more or less done here, so feel free to have the last word

[edit on 15-5-2009 by Mindmelding]

You have no idea what you're talking about. That's no problem here, I think.

reply to post by Gawdzilla


I do believe that was one of the best responses I've seen in awhile. It made me laugh at any rate.


And I was wondering how long it would take before what could have been a rather informative thread on what people in the military are really like would start getting the typical "You're all murderers, rapists, mindless killers, and torturers" nonsense. The few mindless morons who manage to slip through and join the military are in no way representative of the majority. That's like saying pedophiles who happen to be priests are representative of all religious leaders. It obviously not true and a ridiculous assertion.

Edit: Almost forgot to put in the part about being mindless killers. Oops!

[edit on 15-5-2009 by Jenna]

Originally posted by Jenna
reply to post by Gawdzilla

 

I do believe that was one of the best responses I've seen in awhile.

It made me laugh at any rate.


And I was wondering how long it would take before what could have been a rather informative thread on what people in the military are really like would start getting the typical "You're all murderers, rapists, and torturers" nonsense. The few mindless morons who manage to slip through and join the military are in no way representative of the majority. That's like saying pedophiles who happen to be priests are representative of all religious leaders. It obviously not true and a ridiculous assertion.

We always kept an eye on the guys who seemed to get a little too excited by the violence. They were "loose cannons" and not to be relied on. The people who think GIs are crazy have no idea what it's like to be utterly dependent on other people doing their jobs professionally just to stay alive. Freaks and loonies don't get that far in a combat team.

Something the REMFs will never experience is the sure, certain knowledge that someone IS TRYING TO KILL YOU. It's not paranoia, it's an occupational hazard. And it's nothing a civilian can understand unless they're in a place like Sarajevo. And for that great experience I got paid $173/month, before taxes.

Originally posted by Jenna
reply to post by ADVISOR

 

The only reason I know is because my hubby was a recruiter up until recently when they cut funding. Kinda nice having an in-house fact checker.

I hope he wasn't the lying dog that recruited me 26 years ago. I honestly don't recall ever meeting a bigger liar than the guy who recruited me. When I got out of the military 8 years later I went back to his office hoping he was still there so I could implant one of my jump boots up his anus, unfortunately, he had been long gone. The sad thing was he didn't even need to lie to me, I was a gung ho 18 year old and wanted to join the military.

[edit on 5/15/2009 by DarrylGalasso]

Originally posted by Gawdzilla
We always kept an eye on the guys who seemed to get a little too excited by the violence. They were "loose cannons" and not to be relied on. The people who think GIs are crazy have no idea what it's like to be utterly dependent on other people doing their jobs professionally just to stay alive. Freaks and loonies don't get that far in a combat team.

Something the REMFs will never experience is the sure, certain knowledge that someone IS TRYING TO KILL YOU. It's not paranoia, it's an occupational hazard. And it's nothing a civilian can understand unless they're in a place like Sarajevo. And for that great experience I got paid $173/month, before taxes.

There are loose cannons everywhere. That's something that many people don't seem to understand. The best you can do is keep an eye on them and reign them in and/or send them home if they start to lose control. For the most part I think everyone does a fairly good job of it. You can't always be watching them though when you're out in a combat zone.

I actually had to look up REMF. Hadn't heard that term, though I correctly guessed what the last part was. And you're right, no one can understand what it's like to know that there are people gunning for you unless they live through it themselves. That's the only part of my husband being in that I can't stand. The knowledge that when he's in the sandbox people will be out to kill him if they can. I think it's fair to say you were grossly underpaid for your great experience.

reply to post by DarrylGalasso


Not a chance. He only worked as a recruiter the last couple of years and didn't have to lie to people to get enlistments. He did lose quite a few because he told them how it really worked instead of what they wanted to hear when it came to what they could do or get when they joined, but he had enough that wanted the truth that the ones he lost didn't really bother him other than the time he wasted on them instead of talking to someone who didn't want to be lied to. There are some recruiters out there that lie, but most of them don't. The ones who do really don't last that long before they get caught.

Originally posted by GorehoundLarry

Originally posted by dooper

We have the brightest military we've ever had, and by God, we've had some good ones, as many of our former enemies can attest.



[edit on 14-5-2009 by dooper]

Handing out Bibles to MUSLIMS.
Torturing Iraqis and taking photographs of it?
Teaching Iraqi kids to say "Iraq sucks!" ?

Really?

Their intelligence is beyond amazement?

If that's what you call INTELLIGENCE, then wow, I've been wrong all my life.

Meh. There are idiot's everywhere, it's not really fair to pick and choose.

Senators looking at child porn
College Professors killing their family's
College Students killing each other
I mean, I'm not calling you out, but come on, with your logic my stupid military buddies and I can sit around and laugh at the foolishness of the civilian sector too, no?

Anyway, as far as the standards are concerned. I'm a Navy recruiter at the moment, and I can tell you all that it is very hard to be able to affiliate with us. In the district I am stationed, there are probably 10 people a day who try to enlist but cant because, although they are qualified mentally, physically, and morally, there just isn't any jobs available to them, so the whole "military taking dummies" thing I always hear isn't really true.
To add on to that, I probably see at least three people a day come into my office to take the Enlisted Screening Test, or practice ASVAB. Here are some observations I've made in my 2 years recruiting when in comes to the demographics of people whom I have observed and their test results, age, educational level and so on. By the way, for the Navy, the minimum required is a 35 out of 99 and the national average is 40. And when I say National Average I don't mean of military people, I mean people who have taken the ASVAB. (Disclaimer: these observations have been taken from one specific area of the country so maybe we are all just idiots over here, and oh, they are just observations.)

- The poor kids who live in the bad part of town tend to score higher than the rich kids who plan to go to college. So it makes sense for them to use the military as a way to pay for it no?

- About 35 % of college freshman cannot meet the minimum requirement. No I'm not joking. I wish there was a way I could actually show this to the nay sayers, but yeah its true. It's very frustrating. Especially when people tell me "pfft...I'm in college, I don't need the Navy"....Or better still, "I'm in collage" when communicating via text or e-mail. lol

- About 50 % of High School seniors cannot meet the minimum requirement (even if they have passed state mandated exit tests)

- A majority of the people who give us the ol' " Don't need you, going to college" bit end up coming back to us within a year, (we know, we keep records) suddenly wanting to be our best friend, and why? Well, the money ran out for school. Oh and now they have a possession charge, oh and two kids, oh and two DWI's and a DUI.
It's a vicious cycle I have to deal with daily and then I come here to ATS and have to deal with "ZOMG ur dumb military brainwash lol!!!1!1".
And one more thing before thing before I get off my soap box. When a military representative calls you, or your residence, whether on purpose or accidental, please be courteous. A "Not interested. Please stop calling" will do just fine. There is no need to curse my first born, question my sexuality, talk about my mother, or bash [insert current administration here]. Just say no thanks. It hurts to know that I did seven years at sea in order to protect a large number of ungrateful countrymen who think its appropriate to treat me like the antichrist when they hear U.S. Navy Recruiter.
Rant over.

Originally posted by Mindmelding
All the people romanticizing their experiences in the military always fail to see the underlying reality of it. It's a tool of opression, of fear, of violence, of war. It is part of the death culture which plagues our species in these darker ages.

Sure, in the midst of all the bad, good experiences happen, but if you're in the military, the way I see it, somewhere along the line you made a fundamentally wrong choice in chosing fear over love. IQ levels not even being relevant here, it's a EQ based choice.

And it takes more courage to stand for what you believe, for what you know, in the face of overwhelming fource, than to be part of the pack acting on blood lust.

Every now and again I see the military defending themselves, trying to make themselves seem noble. Sorry, but I do think that is the opposite from the truth and, if any military man or woman who is not a psychopath takes the time to stop, to think, to meditate about his choices and who he is I don't honestly see how they could come to anything but shame.

Sadly mankind has the silly ability to rationalize away even the deepest most natural emotions.

Sorry for the harsh post, but it is an honest and candid opinion.

Wwwwwwait a second here Mindmelding, allow me to *respectfully disagree with you. *rolls up his sleeves*

May I have a seat, sir? Thank You.

Now. My choice of joining the armed forces was a CONSCIOUS decision okay, and it did me alot of good. There was no ""somewhere along the line making a fundamentally wrong choice in chosing fear over love.""
Do you have any idea how ugly, ridiculous and disrespectful that sounds mindMELT?
Fear over love? Please eloborate on that insight and concept. I would appreciate it.
First off the choice was a difficult one, which I contemplated long and hard, at a fairly young age (17).
It has nothing to do with an "IQ based choice."
It's more about commitment.
Apparantly, we also have very, VERY different backgrounds.
I might also add, the military isn't for everybody. I'll be the first to tell you 90% "of the challenge' is all mental, in your head, whether you'll survive even initial basic combat training.
You're right. It's an organization that is based around war. Bottom line here.
"The organizing principle of any society is for war Mr. Mindmelding.
The authority of the state over its people, resides in its war powers."
Unfortunetaly this is how history has recorded itself over the ages, and how the world turns today.
< Whether you want to "fundamentally" accept it or not, that's entirely up to you. Perhaps this is a choice in fear over love, for you my friend.
And I don't mean that in the wrong way........
However it really chaps my hide when men and women who serve(ed) in the armed forces are generally labeled as evil. A fundamental tool I've applied in my life is weighing out the good and the bad in something, or someone. Perhaps break bread with one of us.
I think it is you who needs to stop and think.
How dare you find shame in us!
Psychopaths? Trying to make ourselves look noble?
Acting as part of the pack of "bloodlust?
Are you serious dude?
I'm not even sure I should bother with a bum like you. I just find it a bit insulting with the things you said there cowboy.
Sorry, but I'm going to wear my feelings on my sleeve now too.
I want to know what a someone like yourself has applied "fundamentally" to others and society? What actions you've taken for your causes?
Positive differences you've made for others?
I'm not trying to judge you, but I am curious.
I've also given back in the outside world, as much as I could atleast. Helping poor kids,(youth programs, YMCA, probation juveniles), feeding homeless, supporting (various) court cases, legislations, coaching little leagues, helping my neighbors. Helping my neighbors......helping my neighbors. I'm proud of what I was able to 'give back' to the community.
And (by joining the military) TO MY COUNTRY.
And I wasn't even born in the states. But atleast I can say I came to this country and contributed! That's what America is about my friend, the contributions you make. The fundamental pieces of the puzzle of this country, that integrally bonds us, essentially completes us.
Capish?

Please allow me 2 continue.

A lil' about Ben Niceknowinya. >


I grew up fast. Inner city life will expose you to some stuff, that perhaps applied the mental capacity of making this decision and commitment, and also the ablitiy to be mentally prepared for the challenges I faced ahead of me.
Growing up in a tougher part of town, where everything was "a neighborhood thing" I used to get in alot of fights, and most of them weren't by choice. Many times I've had to prove my loyalty to my friends by sticking by their side during an altercation (or whatever), knowing you would catch a beaten. It's called loyalty. The bond which is created, is similar, but not as profound as my "battle buddy's."
I've been jumped, stabbed, even shot at all in the outside world.
I'm not proud of any of this, and I'm not trying to pound my chest in any way. It was the hardships I've had to deal with, and that's what exactly what I did.
There is a battle and war going on right here in our city streets. I can show you neighborhoods that are worse than 3rd world countries.
Check out Camden......
upload.wikimedia.org...
graphics8.nytimes.com...

"City breathin' chest heavin.......against the flesh of the evening...."
Busta.
Not sure what kind of background you come from, but you come across as a pompous, naive brat. Who claims to be righteous, and beneficiary to peace and the birds and bees. But I see right through you.
NIMBY. That's you. "Not in my backyard."
Right? C'mon.....

"""Sorry, but I do think that is the opposite from the truth and, if any military man or woman who is not a psychopath takes the time to stop, to think, to meditate about his choices and who he is I don't honestly see how they could come to anything but shame."""""

Yeah...whatever you say kid. Luckily, I've earned the blessing privilege to meditate while I poop, now that I'm in my mid 30's. That's about as far as I need to meditate for anything there chauncy.
I'd rather be sharp. On my toes. Challenged. Involved.
And I've reached max

[edit on 15-5-2009 by Ben Niceknowinya]

Originally posted by Juston
- About 50 % of High School seniors cannot meet the minimum requirement (even if they have passed state mandated exit tests)
- A majority of the people who give us the ol' " Don't need you, going to college" bit end up coming back to us within a year, (we know, we keep records) suddenly wanting to be our best friend, and why? Well, the money ran out for school. Oh and now they have a possession charge, oh and two kids, oh and two DWI's and a DUI.

Don't know about your other observations, but my husband complained about the same things. He had quite a few who couldn't pass the ASVAB even after studying every night and being tutored for it. And the people who wanted to join then changed their minds over a girlfriend and then ended up coming back after getting two or three charges drove him nuts.

reply to post by Ben Niceknowinya


Just two points:

First, the organising principle of any society is family, friends, love. The tribe. When wars come it all goes to crap. What you end up is fascism, enslavement, abuse and, eventually total social collapse. I wouldn't be surprised if the first tribal wars were the result of some prehistoric psychopath manipulating two tribes into hostility in an attempt to become leader... Anyway, time will show you this, if history already has not. As for the love and fear, that is a basic cosmology I, and many others, have. Somewhere down the fractal emotions meet energy, or lack therof. Love is an energy, fear is entropic. This is akin to taoism, if you need references. Yin and Yang.

Second. Kid? Did the military teach you to make baseless assumptions or are you just trying to physically intimidate over the internet? If you're truthfull about your age we are in the same demographic...

Your post illustrates the idea I have about the military. Endless rationalizations about the validity of your cause, of your life. Yet all I see is mystakes and denial. However, I do respect the free will of people, so, please, live your life as you see fit. But do realise the only reason there is widescale international wars is because power elites always find people like you willing to fight them... so, in a sense, you are all responsible for the atrocities that happen in them.

[edit on 15-5-2009 by Mindmelding]