Military Misconceptions

reply to post by StellarX


As I get dragged into tit for tat posts by people who don't want to address my argument beyond trashing it, it is nice to see that there are others that can stay on topic and critique the assumptions the supporters of the premisse of this thread make, that the military is always good, war is good, it's comraderie, we are defending the nation from the evil [insert invaded country here] and all the other heaps of manure that get passed for rational arguments in these dark and stupid times.

*****

I know it is hard to make someone see truth if his income depends on him accepting lies, but one can but try.

The military is evil. This is the basic truth here. And all of you that willingly participate in it are willingly accepting evil in your lives. There is no way to make peace out of war. It has never happened. There is no way to win a war, all that negative energy will manifest itself against the people who created it, sooner or later. War is never noble. It is always a tragedy. War breeds war. Only peace movements make peace. Only saying sorry and receiving forgiveness ends wars.

And the majority of the people who think otherwise are young males who, quite frankly, don't know any better. And there is a minority that thinks otherwise, a minority of dark evil people that feed off chaos and violence because they have psychopathic, loveless, thought processes. Dumb pride and ruthless parasitism. This is what I see most in the military.

C'mon people, look in your hearts, it's time.

Hi,

Originally posted by Mindmelding
As I get dragged into tit for tat posts by people who don't want to address my argument beyond trashing it, it is nice to see that there are others that can stay on topic and critique the assumptions the supporters of the premisse of this thread make,

Well to be very honest this makes up a good proportion of what i have been doing here the last few years. War has sadly become a business ( well more so than it used to be) and just like telling capitalist that there is something very problematic with the centralization of wealth your not in my opinion&experience going to get far by telling those in the business of war that they are in the wrong business....

that the military is always good, war is good, it's comraderie, we are defending the nation from the evil [insert invaded country here] and all the other heaps of manure that get passed for rational arguments in these dark and stupid times.

Well i think we disagree in that i think all of that is in fact possible and in fact the norm as most people's of the world organize themselves for self defense against the imperialist of their times. Admittedly these self defense forces are also more often than not employed to keep 'the order' or to 'enlarge' the homeland but that does not and should not be taken to mean that organizing for self defense isn't necessary or 'evil'.

I know it is hard to make someone see truth if his income depends on him accepting lies, but one can but try.

The military is evil. This is the basic truth here. And all of you that willingly participate in it are willingly accepting evil in your lives. There is no way to make peace out of war.

Well war has never been a business for the squeamish but given how occupiers can often prove themselves to be more 'evil' than any standing army of the former local tyrant people have always and will continue to join in arms to defend their local interest. As centuries have passed the local interest grew and the defense thereof in my opinion ever more legitimate. Sadly where we are now represents, certainly in my opinion, positive change/evolution however strange that might sound too many; 'things' are in fact getting 'better'.

It has never happened. There is no way to win a war, all that negative energy will manifest itself against the people who created it, sooner or later.

If only there was cosmic justice in the objective sense you intend we would not have the problems we do today. As long as the real war criminals ( the people who instigate the wars) roam relatively freely and are allowed access to our public airwaves by their friends/business interest in the media i can't and wont buy into the idea of 'karma'. When lightning ( yes and i don't mean 'lasers') starts hitting the Cheney's and the Bushes's i might convert and start leaving the universe to run it's course but untill then we will have to make do by ourselves which will sadly involve the bloodshed that might result from our failure to force our self styled leaders to come to peaceful resolutions to our disagreements&differences.

War is never noble. It is always a tragedy. War breeds war. Only peace movements make peace. Only saying sorry and receiving forgiveness ends wars.

Perhaps we should in fact stop calling self defense noble and admit that modern weapons involves very little of the nobility that might formerly have been associated with personally confronting those who do you harm on a open field of battle. Perhaps that is so and perhaps war only breeds more war but i don't see how it truly could if ever nation properly defended it's borders and never crossed into those of another. Perhaps we can call conquest evil or discuss the revenge motivate that may animate nations to pursue those who at first attacked them back to their homes?

And the majority of the people who think otherwise are young males who, quite frankly, don't know any better.

Don't for a moment leave the old fools out of reckoning when they are by en large the people who make the profit and have the power to send the young fools to defend, ot steal other private interest, what has now become largely private interest.

And there is a minority that thinks otherwise, a minority of dark evil people that feed off chaos and violence because they have psychopathic, loveless, thought processes.

Yes, i think they are around but your unlikely to run into very many of them in a lifetime. What you will find is plenty of people with sociopathetic tendencies in the military, and in other positions of authority ( police, etc) as they are naturally attracted to positions where they presume they will gain by the default the esteem they can have difficulty gaining in everyday life. Still i think we are talking about distinct minorities given how utterly misinformed the vast majority of American servicemen seems to be when it comes to the motivations of those who send them to war. In my opinion, however little worth it may have here, these guys& ( and now) girls really don't know any better and often have not figured it out by the time they leave or are discarded for a new generation of mostly well meaning dupes who truly think they are defending democracy and protecting their country.

Dumb pride and ruthless parasitism. This is what I see most in the military.

Well we are never going to be able to agree about that then. As i suggested earlier the military is merely a reflection of the larger society so if you want to call the US armed forces that you are by extension indicting the entire US populace who were after all similarly misguided enough to support the initial war against Afghanistan and many of those before it.

C'mon people, look in your hearts, it's time.

Well must as i like discussions about hearts&minds introspection will be of practically no use while people are so desperately , and by no means coincidentally, misinformed about the world around them. Introspection ( call it evaluation if you like) is a rather natural survival trait but if it's based on incorrect information and force-fed presumptions as gained from the media it will logically keep on yielding the thought processes both of us associate , for different reasons, with the soldiers of god&empire.

Stellar

Originally posted by dooper
Cowards ever find refuge behind the cover of dialogue and negotiations.

Actually civilized people do that sort of thing as we didn't like the dark ages and all that ages before that. I am really surprised to hear you say something like this given how you say you are defending civilizations that are pretty much the result of dialogue&negotiations.

All life is a run, a hide, or a fight.

That is the case in the animal realm but since we have made some progress things are hardly as simplistic as that.

A coward only knows how to run or hide.

A coward also knows how to keep himself alive; cowards are far more likely to fight only those battles they absolutely must than people such as yourself that will go thousands of miles to kill complete strangers because your government told you that they 'posed a threat' of sorts. I mean i really like the fact that you are so trusting of those who order the killing but perhaps you can see how this is somewhat 'scary' for some of your fellow Americans who might at some point in the future be branded 'terrorist' by the same government you will trust to send you to kill people who never ever threatened you or the USA?

But perhaps that's going to far as you just kill 'communist'; Russians are after all not caucasian and could be easily identified if they ever infiltrated the US..... I mean the red scare and the things done to supposed 'communist' in the US should not serve as a warning for how easily most people can be fightened into working with their local governments to catch all the 'communist'?

A soldier can run to the fight and ferret out those cowards who hide.

Yes both foreign and domestic; we got the memo and know all about how the patriot act attempts to brand Americans as that exact cowardly enemy you speak of. But hey, you only follow orders if it involves killing oriental looking folks ( or Russian folks helping them)in some far off country, right? Again do you see how some may be worried when they see how easily the government can send people to kill&die in far away places?

Good to hear that we have nothing to fear from you beside how you and like-minded 'patriots' managed to antagonize the entire South East Asia by killing millions of them...

The ironic thing is that when they perhaps one day choose to extract some measure of revenge you will feel vindicated probably never considering the fact that you created the very enemy you were told to be afraid of.

The sins of the fathers......

Stellar

reply to post by StellarX


Just a broad reply to your post, because there is more points that we agree on than those which we differ. Where we differ probably stems from the notion of "cosmic justice". So i'll take a detour on this thread and give a broad view on ethics, morality, karma, nature and God. This will help people understand where I am coming from because I do seem a bit dogmatic so I might as well give the dogma so people can, for themselves, validate it or not.

Mine is a voluntary subscription religion.

I view reality as a fractal structure stemming from one basic conscious force, which exists to experience itself. As such we have a basic duality structure, plus and minus, love and fear, up and down, etc, which exists to allow for a dynamic, because if at the source all was love there would be nothing to understand love in relation to. So from the source the dynamic is based on duality. And duality fractals up to multiplicity but we still have that basic structure.

Because it's a life force it basically self regulates. If you focus on the negatives, and a healthy human with standard emotions knows intuitively what positive and negative are because he has them emotionally mapped in his/her psyche, you will attract negatives into your life, as a probability. If you focus on the positives you will attract positives, as a probability. The reasoning behind this is that emotions are a manifestation of energy and there is some electromagnetic force going on there which regulates the whole system. Sure, it's complex and non linear, but it will statistically follow the basic plus and minus duality.

War will breed war, as it's a "sin" against the life force, as is a negative energy, a chaotic energy, which will breed chaos. Positive energies will counter it and attract in kind. Sure, with exceptions due to the non linearity of the overall system, but still recognisably as a dynamic.

So there you have it in very general terms what I think is the underlying dynamic in this whole scenario. It will always be a dance between life and death, as life does need death to renew itself, even to define itself. But if you side will death in all probability you will atract death to yourself in a statistically significant manner. + and -, yin and yang, taoism, whatever you want to call the basic bifurcation of the reality fractal that is god's mind.

It all depends on your heart choices, there is no hierarchy in how you relate to God, as you are already part of the god dynamic, of the life force. All that one can do is accept it, and live more, or deny it, and live less...

Originally posted by Mindmelding
reply to post by StellarX

 

The military is evil. This is the basic truth here. And all of you that willingly participate in it are willingly accepting evil in your lives. There is no way to make peace out of war. It has never happened. There is no way to win a war, all that negative energy will manifest itself against the people who created it, sooner or later. War is never noble. It is always a tragedy. War breeds war. Only peace movements make peace. Only saying sorry and receiving forgiveness ends wars.

War is an event that is not evil or good.

It's a very unfortunate and violent event that is best averted - but just as a storm forms at an extreme difference in air temperatures; so will a war form at extreme differences of culture/motives.

There is always someone who realizes that domesticated people would rather give the psycho with a gun what he wants and call the police to deal with him later.

You will never be able to get rid of these people. Why? It's a rather obvious fact - I could walk into a store, start shooting the ceiling, and most people would leave me alone and just wait for the police to arrive.

Unfortunately, the behavioral dynamics of an individual are often very similar to the behavior of countries (large groups of people). Eventually - one country will realize they can take what they want/need from another country at the point of a spear (or some other weapon). Those people will sit back and wait for the military to come - any that don't will be horribly ineffective against an organized force with superior training, armament, etc.

In the end - you cannot call a military evil. You can call the actions of a military/country as evil - but a military, in and out of itself, is the existence of a trained force ready to protect from the hostilities of another culture/country that are certain to exist.

And the majority of the people who think otherwise are young males who, quite frankly, don't know any better. And there is a minority that thinks otherwise, a minority of dark evil people that feed off chaos and violence because they have psychopathic, loveless, thought processes. Dumb pride and ruthless parasitism. This is what I see most in the military.

I honestly don't think you've seen much of the military. But, there again, I haven't seen much of you (well, aside from those I've met that share a similar mentality..... they didn't see much of the military because they believed it was evil.... thus, observing/getting-to-know the military was a waste of time, as it was clearly evil - typical logic loop).

In the end - you choose an idealist mentality that only works so long as everyone agrees with your idea of what is good. Unfortunately - that leaves little wiggle-room for free thought.

Problems with militaries and cultures occur when people with idealist mentalities decide to attempt to enforce those ideals on others using those military resources.

C'mon people, look in your hearts, it's time.

I have. And it knows that war is an inevitable event within our species - and it would rather be there to ensure it is ended quickly, decisively, and with as little loss of life as possible. But it knows the plagues of our species quite well.

You cannot stop war anymore than you can stop urinating. The only way to cease urinating is to, by some means or another, kill yourself. It may not be the most dignified or pleasant of events you can do - but it must be done...... thankfully, you have some liberty in deciding where it can be done, and how long you have to hang around the bathroom.

[edit on 20-5-2009 by Aim64C]

[edit on 20-5-2009 by Aim64C]

reply to post by Aim64C


The objective is not so much to stop war, it's to stop good people going to war. If only the psychopaths are left, let that 3% kill themselves, we would probably be better off.

The psychowars, the wars to end all wars... untill a new generation of psychopaths grows up I suppose.

If you reread my last post you'll notice that I accept the existance of evil, so the point is not to erradicate it, which is impossible, it's to help people make the right choices so we live in less evil times, because most people would make the right decision if they were properly raised and properly educated, if they grew up thinking there is good and evil, war and peace, and it's ultimately an individual choice. All this inevitability speak is nonsense, it's all individual choice. If I choose not to kill anyone, even if I have to pay this choice with my own life, then I will not willingly and knowingly kill anyone. End of story.

So if you're in the military at some point you've decided to be instrumental in the death of others. ACCEPT IT or make another choice. It is this simple.

reply to post by StellarX


So, I somehow managed to antagonize millions of southeast Asians?

Wow. All by myself. Gotta tell momma about that. She'll be so proud!

If you think that was something, how about you give me 50,000 handpicked men and turn me loose in Afghanistan, or Iran?

I guarantee you, we'll go through both countries like crap through a goose.

Originally posted by dooper
reply to post by StellarX

 

So, I somehow managed to antagonize millions of southeast Asians?

Wow. All by myself. Gotta tell momma about that. She'll be so proud!

If you think that was something, how about you give me 50,000 handpicked men and turn me loose in Afghanistan, or Iran?

I guarantee you, we'll go through both countries like crap through a goose.

Now this was one of the most idiotic analogies I ever read. So basically your handpicked military would be about as effective on the mentioned countries as the digestive process of a goose is at harming it?

Or was this a case of truth tourettes?

Either way you made me laugh, for which I thank you.

Originally posted by Mindmelding
reply to post by Aim64C

 

The objective is not so much to stop war, it's to stop good people going to war. If only the psychopaths are left, let that 3% kill themselves, we would probably be better off.

The reason people choose to go to war is because there is a military present to choose a location.

Otherwise - you don't go to war, you become oppressed and war occours when you resist that oppression.

The psychowars, the wars to end all wars... untill a new generation of psychopaths grows up I suppose.

Ah, but we all meet your definition of a psychopath, even yourself.

If you reread my last post you'll notice that I accept the existance of evil, so the point is not to erradicate it, which is impossible, it's to help people make the right choices so we live in less evil times, because most people would make the right decision if they were properly raised and properly educated, if they grew up thinking there is good and evil, war and peace, and it's ultimately an individual choice.

You misunderstood what I was saying.

Regardless of what choices you make - someone out there will always realize that they can kill you to get what they want. At that point, you must make the decision as to whether or not you would rather kill them when they make the attempt and return to live with your family/friends... or whether you would choose the peace of death.

All this inevitability speak is nonsense, it's all individual choice. If I choose not to kill anyone, even if I have to pay this choice with my own life, then I will not willingly and knowingly kill anyone. End of story.

So, if I were to kill you for the money in your wallet... you sacrifice would feed me for a few days - then I'd kill one of your friends for the money in their wallet.

To say that someone is evil for choosing to resist that cycle of parasitic behavior is, quite frankly, naive.

So if you're in the military at some point you've decided to be instrumental in the death of others.

Sure, I have no problem pulling the trigger.

God had no problem ordering the Israelites to attack and enslave other powers in the region. I am not ignorant enough to believe God (or Jesus) was a pacifist.

ACCEPT IT or make another choice. It is this simple.

I accept that I may kill another human being. However, that does not mean I believe in killing indiscriminantly. I also value the chaotic flurry of ideals and views that our domesticated society allows. Natural selection would otherwise remove many views of our society were it not supplied with an abundance.

Does that make me evil, or "not knowing better?"

Until you come up with a better way of keeping the forces of other countries from marching through our streets and claiming our resources (and denying us our legal freedoms) - I would appreciate it if you would refrain from passing judgement on people.

And in all honesty - you're separated from the very life force you believe to be aware of. Life is not the body - the body lives and dies, detatching from the spirit. To kill another body - you must just pray for their spirit to find understanding and comfort and rejoin the connection to God/Heaven. To hate is to be anti-life. To seek to separate people from God and Heaven - that is evil.

To participate in the mechanics of this universe - is simply to participate in the mechanics of this universe. You can participate in a manner that is evil, or you can participate in a manner that is good.

That is the choice you always have. Your choice in events to participate in have little bearing on good/evil. Your choice of how to participate - of what you do with your participation.... that is what defines good from evil.

reply to post by Aim64C


Just two things to add to your post:

Self defense is a qualitively different situation than joining an organised military that dosen't have conscription.

That is the choice you always have. Your choice in events to participate in have little bearing on good/evil. Your choice of how to participate - of what you do with your participation.... that is what defines good from evil.

I'm not sure I fully agree with that. Your actions will always have an energetic truth to them, and while it might not be as evil to kill someone in a missguided sense of defense as it is to kill someone in anger, both are still worse than forgive and move on to raise a family and love thy peers.

Things are simpler than most people's rhetoric make them seem, imho. Joining a military is always bad, killing another human being is always bad, there is always another choice, although sometimes it's harder to run than it is to change and fight, but thats a fight young males (and the ocasional female) have with both their hormones and their egos.

Civilian defense forces, light on hierarchy, are about as far as I can accept things, I'm not a gun melting hippy. Sure, let people be capable of defense. But that is not what any modern military, especially those tied into the UN, really are. They are bodies of conquest and opression, although disguised by a lot of orwellian double talk. Which is to say lies.

reply to post by Mindmelding


My goal in life is to provide you with humor. You're welcome.

I said "handpicked."

Of course, we would be using the absolute proven principles of warfare verified over the millennia, those methods that have never lost a single battle, campaign, or war since 1479 BC.

In fact the only thing that could inhibit such a success would be folks like you.

As always.

Edit to add:

You're absolutely wrong. There's a ton of folks out there that need killing. Lots.


[edit on 20-5-2009 by dooper]

Originally posted by Mindmelding
reply to post by Aim64C

 

Just two things to add to your post:

Self defense is a qualitively different situation than joining an organised military that dosen't have conscription.

A military is the self-defense of a large group of people.

Just as you would train yourself with a weapon you would use in self defense (including your body) - we train in the weapons we use to defend the industrial/economic interests of our nation, as well as the lives of our citizens abroad.

Granted, some decisions made and actions taken are not as straight-forward - but many of our daily actions cannot be defined so clearly, either.

That is the choice you always have. Your choice in events to participate in have little bearing on good/evil. Your choice of how to participate - of what you do with your participation.... that is what defines good from evil.

I'm not sure I fully agree with that. Your actions will always have an energetic truth to them, and while it might not be as evil to kill someone in a missguided sense of defense as it is to kill someone in anger, both are still worse than forgive and move on to raise a family and love thy peers.

Forgive and move on?

Dear child, Anyone I kill in combat is forgiven, and I am moving on to raise a family and love my peers.

It's not for me to decide whether someone I killed is evil or good - whether they were just caught up in something larger than themselves, or what.

Under more civil circumstances, had I a disagreement with the ideals of a group of people, I would sit down and have a chat or debate with them. However, when they have a firearm and are not too inclined to sit down and chat.... I can choose to resist (to do so effectively would likely require killing one or more of them - as they are most certainly resolved to kill me and those who may have supported me) - or I can choose to submit.

Things are simpler than most people's rhetoric make them seem, imho. Joining a military is always bad, killing another human being is always bad, there is always another choice, although sometimes it's harder to run than it is to change and fight, but thats a fight young males (and the ocasional female) have with both their hormones and their egos.

It's not about egos or hormones. It's about what happens when someone wants to impose their views on another. War can happen with or without a military - with or without a weapon.

Civilian defense forces, light on hierarchy, are about as far as I can accept things, I'm not a gun melting hippy. Sure, let people be capable of defense. But that is not what any modern military, especially those tied into the UN, really are. They are bodies of conquest and opression, although disguised by a lot of orwellian double talk. Which is to say lies.

The U.N. is a joke and needs to be dismantled.

But most of the western militaries are not what one would call a military of conquest. They are rarely deployed and hardly compare to many eastern and mid-eastern militaries in number. THOSE can be considered militaries of conquest. They regularly stage offensives to obtain resources and land. China and India are getting ready to duke it out over some sources of oil. North Korea has buku people ready to storm into South Korea (and defeat the "American Imperialist Devils that are jealous of the riches of the true Korea lead by Kim Jong Il").

We have an economy of conquest. We readily invest in the development of other countries to secure future trade. It's how we became the economic powerhouse we are today. We helped develop Japan, Germany, The Republic of Korea (south korea), etc after they were destroyed by a war we, ironically, did not start.

However, it's an economic model that is beneficial to all parties involved - not parasitic in nature. We help pay for the industrial development of a nation, which helps them produce enough to trade with us, and provide for their own people (as well as trade with other nations).

Compared with our 'peaceful' attempts to help other nations (African nations)... I'd say the military and western economy did a really nice job with Japan, Germany, the RoK, and what's happening in Iraq and Afghanistan (though we're still dealing with a bunch of people blowing buildings up as fast as we can build them).

reply to post by Aim64C


Don't be pedantic, I am not a child, thats just a thinly vieled ad hominem you're trying to pass off as argumentative merit.

No, the military is not the self defense of large populations. It's sold as that but it is not. The self defense of populations are militias. Local groups of armed citizens that do not organise into professional fighting forces, which is what the military in reality is.

They're hessians. Hessians in denial, under mind control, but hessians nontheless. Guns for hire, mercenaries silhouted by whatever flag (and currency) happens to be the mind control instrument to motivate them to fight.

I'm sorry to have to give such an opinion which I know beforehand is insulting to many, but it's sincere and sometimes we just have to say what we think is right if we think it can help somehow in the bigger picture.

Which is why I take the obvious nitpicking and derailing posts with some grace and stand my ground.

But I think both sides of the argument can agree this thread is long enough with the current participants, so, for my part I will leave this at this. Anyone who wants to add something to me directly please U2U. I'm not capitulating, but I do know the world won't change because of a forum thread.

Good night (or whatever timezone compliment applies) to all.

reply to post by Mindmelding


I do not feel it necessary to support the person responsible for this untested, unproven theory by purchasing and reading the book, though almost every site that mentions it seeks to sell it to me. I do find it rather amusing however that you see no problem whatsoever with claiming the theories of this book as facts with it not being backed up by anything or anyone outside itself.

As I get dragged into tit for tat posts by people who don't want to address my argument beyond trashing it

I have made repeated attempts to discuss your argument with you and your rebuttal has basically consisted of "it's right because the book says so", and then you want to complain that people are trashing your argument? Seriously?

The reasoning behind your arguments is circular. No matter what is said or shown to disprove or even cast doubt on the theories in that book you won't believe it because the book and it's author says the theories are correct. So basically, you believe they are correct because the book and the author say they are. Has it occurred to you that perhaps this has not gained any footing whatsoever in the last four or five years because it is all made up to sell books?

When you celebrate Memorial Day this year and for the many years that will follow.... take a moment from stuffing yourself with food and drink with your family & friends and realize that the freedom and lifestyle you are enjoying came at a high price from those that served and died for you and your country. Remember those who are away from home, family and friends..... who man a post and say that nothing is going to happen to you on their watch.

Posted by Dave Rabbit in this thread: www.abovetopsecret.com...


On a positive note. Happy Memorial Day. The ones who have sacrificed their lives will be remembered in my mind. And let us not forget to support our servicemen and women who are oveseas today.

God Bless.

I'm in the military and I'd just like to say that I am anything but a dumb, deluded, or evil person. My job is to fix cargo planes, and I'm very proud of my job. Why is that?

Because if I don't do my job then it means the men and women in Iraq and Afghanistan won't get the ammo they need to defend themselves. It means they won't get their letters from home. It means they won't have a way of getting to Germany when they get injured. If don't do my job then people die.

And it's not just my fellow American warriors, it's whoever this nation decides to help out on any given day. When a disaster such as famine happens in a third world country and we decide to help them out, how do you think those humanitarian supplies get over there? Those bags of rice and medical supplies sure aren't going to walk across the Atlantic to get to Rwanda. Those supplies get there by way of one of my planes. Now if I don't fix the plane, that plane doesn't fly. And if my plane doesn't fly, then it means men, women, and children are going to suffer.

That is why I do my job.

Originally posted by dooper
I've got some bad news.

The bad guys don't give a damn about folks like you, and they slaughter folks like you by the tens, hundreds, and thousands.

Hi again dooper.

'The bad guys'? Is that what they call themselves or could you be more specific? Are they also invading countries that never threatened them and killing hundreds of thousands while claiming that they are bringing democracy and freedom?

What concerns them most is those guys in uniform, with their sights on him and their fingers on the trigger.

There's a whole bait of folks who due to their evil actually need killing. Not a very good comment on the current state of humanity, but there it is.

I agree with the sentiment that there are a large number ( but certainly a insignificant proportion of humanity) of people who's absence on this planet will be of great benefit to all; just another reason i can not possibly believe in a benevolent god.

Either way as per standard 'the terrorist' seem to constrain themselves well enough by focusing their attacks only in the places where the imperialist are actually attacking them. Perhaps if they were as crazy as the would be liberators they too would do more than their one alleged attack on NY? Why have they so utterly failed to attack 'the west' over the last eight years when we can all attest to the fact that airport and port security is still ridiculously lax? Our governments keep talking about these 'evil men' in beards&caves and yet the one's that seem to be causing by far the most destruction seems shaved and uniformed...

Most folks with supposedly high moral standards, are just making excuses for not getting their hands dirty.

People with high moral standards are also self respecting and would normally rather die than give up their faith or standards; you can tell by a persons actions if they really have morals and standards or if they are just saying what they at least know what is expected . If someone refuses to act in self or mutual defense when enemies more obvious than make believe 'terrorist' and 'communist' presents themselves at home ( when you need to go to far and away places to kill them your very likely serving a profit motive) then we can truly judge them. Until then their daily interactions with others should suffice to see if they will be dependable or not.

Ever killed, skinned, and butchered your own beef?

Never been hungry enough to do the killing but the rest i have done; i am confident that being really hungry should be more than enough motivation to kill livestock.

Gotta get your hands dirty, a huge gut pile, blood everywhere, and the stench is a bit uncomfortable.

No. You don't process your own beef, you don't raise your own food, and you don't do what is necessary to maintain your food.

Well i don't see that that is so overwhelmingly important as you can get away with a lot of ignorance ( in terms of meat preparation) if you have fire and no need to store it very long. Since i wont be one of those 'lone wolves' i am certain that the varied skill sets that any larger group includes will suffice in this regard.

You live off the efforts of others in this regard.

Just like you live off the efforts of our soldiers.

Who aren't complaining.

Well i believe that specialization is one of the major reasons why we have modern societies so i wont attack those who can't butcher or do this or that specifically. Mindmelding has taken the , in my opinion, extreme point of view that we should do without national military forces but that belief is not very widely shared and should not be taken to mean that most people of the world don't believe or wont serve their countries when they threats are obvious.

The mistake that is made is that many in the military presume that those who criticizing them do so from a lack of respect or understanding when my reading suggest that most protesters/dissenters are in fact against specific campaigns and against specific abuses of power.

As long as the majority of men in the armed forces go wherever they are ordered ( the morality or legality of the campaign notwithstanding ) such antipathy towards militarized forces will logically grow as people come to realise that these forces are paid like mercenaries and act just like them too.

There is much that can be done to create more trust in the uniform ( 79% of voters in Switzerland voted to maintain conscription in 200; recently 57% voted to buy Hornets, talk about direct democracy) but seeing practically the entire armed forces march off to a obviously illegal war against a enemy that doesn't exist there is something that will engender the type of distrust that will greatly hurt the country in the future.

Stellar

Originally posted by StellarX
Either way as per standard 'the terrorist' seem to constrain themselves well enough by focusing their attacks only in the places where the imperialist are actually attacking them.

Umm... Evidence to the contrary would say otherwise.

Twin car bombings kill 4 in Baghdad
The coordinated midday blasts occurred in a parking lot near the ministry in downtown Baghdad, killing two civilians and two policemen who were parking their cars, defence and interior ministry officials said.

...

Monday's bombings follow a surge in violence in the capital last month that mainly targeted busy markets in mainly Shiite areas of Baghdad, raising concerns about the return of sectarian violence.

15 dead in Baghdad bombing
A car bomb exploded Wednesday at the entrance to a fruit and vegetable market in south Baghdad, killing 15 people and wounding about 40, police and hospital officials said, in the latest sign of rising attacks.

....

Hours later, another car bomb exploded in the capital's Karradah district, killing two people and wounding six, police said. The bomb apparently targeted a police patrol but missed.

Suicide bomb kills 6 in Mosul
A suicide bomb was detonated near a coffee shop in the northern Iraqi city of Mosul on Friday, killing at least six people, an Interior Ministry official said.

....

A string of six car bombings in Baghdad killed 54 people on Wednesday.

When troops are killed, the media make it a point to say they were. They aren't referred to as people, they are always referred to as troops or soldiers. As you can see in these articles, they aren't targeting just soldiers, and frequently aren't actually targeting them at all. They are targeting people over a difference in opinion on religion, just as they have always done and that has nothing to do with the troops.

Originally posted by Jenna
Umm... Evidence to the contrary would say otherwise.

Hi Jenna,

I know you could perhaps have gone too more trouble and found some sources which made no mention of police but as it stands two of your three sources mentions that police where either the target or that Iraqi police were wounded or killed. You are aware that around ten thousand Iraqi police/troops have been also been killed while doing pretty much the same thing American patrols are doing?

When troops are killed, the media make it a point to say they were. They aren't referred to as people, they are always referred to as troops or soldiers.

Not in the headlines but when you actually read the articles it seems clear to me that these attacks are in fact mostly aimed at security forces or those believed to be collaborating. I don't know why some people believe in this notion of 'mindless' violence against random people in public places.

As you can see in these articles, they aren't targeting just soldiers, and frequently aren't actually targeting them at all.

Two of the three cited sources involves the targeting of security forces; perhaps a poor choice on your behalf?

They are targeting people over a difference in opinion on religion, just as they have always done and that has nothing to do with the troops.

And i think it's clear that while 'you' ( the US national security state/most generals) keep blaming those they have chosen to occupy for the violence there wont be any chance for a solution. Imperialist have always blamed their victims for the atrocities they are 'forced' to commit in 'self defense' with the idea of leaving , so as to avoid instigating violence, never seemingly coming to mind,

If the British can acknowledge it why not the US?

www.independent.ie...

www.peacenorth.org...

www.highbeam.com...

Didn't want to spend any more time trying to find the original source but that should suffice. I think there would be a similar effect if ALL occupation forces left even if certain elements are still more than well enough armed to carry on fighting who they wish to.

Occupations will always result in violence but for the most part in will be in direct proportion to how violently/humanly the occupation is being conducted. If the US did not totally devastate Iraqi civilian infrastructure , for absolutely no logical reason other than to destroy Iraqi society, before the war this occupation would have been far easier to conduct but the Iraqi people got the message loud and clear and realised that were not going to be treated with much respect; somewhere between 150 000 and 1.5 million of them were proved right in as much as they are no longer alive.

Stellar