Military Misconceptions

I was born and raised in the military. My first experience with "civilians" was like being a fish out of water. No respect. No morals. No order. No values. No discipline. No honor. It was complete and utter chaos compared to military life as I had known it.

I joined the Army in 1990 at 29 years old. It took me that long to realize that I could follow orders without getting myself thrown in the brig. My drills were hard on me because of my age. I was taken aside and reprimanded before I had even put on the BDU's because the younger recruits would emmulate me simply because I was older than the rest. I took my oath seriously and performed accordingly. After graduation I went on to DLI and eventually graduated with my class achieving the highest scores ever recorded at the defense language institute (1991). I was a lowly E-2 who was saluted everywhere I went. How embarrassing.

After my honorable discharge and return to civilian life, I found it very difficult to readjust. Non-military personnel are very happy to take their freedom for granted. Not only take it for granted but even publicly despise soldiers in uniform and out. How odd.

If life would have dealt the hand I wanted, things would be different. I would still be there, defending my country and honoring the lives of all who went before me. It saddens me to think there are so many who form opinions based on one set of ideals and refuse to look at the big picture.

We are (or were) a freedom and liberty loving country. Now look around this post for example and observe the darkness, idiocy and stark refusal to see that their right to sit on their bums typing madly and thoughtlessly was handed to them by virtue of another man and woman's answer to the call of duty, honor, country.

To my military friends, thank you. I salute you. We all depend on you whether or not we are willing to admit it.

reply to post by Hazelnut


Another totally self centered and biased romantised account of military life, full of false reasonings. Civilizations don't automatically fall into chaos because the military is absent. Look at the US today, it's falling into chaos in no small part because of the parasitic weight of the military itself.

The trillion dollar budget holes, the false wars, the internal fascism, the lies and manipulations, the torture, the rapes, the dead puppies, the imperialism, the corporate crooneyism, and, most ironically of all, the idea that they save the internal freedom of America from invasion when in reality they are controlled by the financial interests of the city of london...

Yes, you can have that bubble of ordered and honorable life in the military. But it dosen't scale up into the big picture. I'm sorry, but it simply dosen't.

But seeing big pictures is not what military personnel is recruited for, except for a few generals and staff in the pentagon. Like most of us in civilian life, you are also just slaves to the priviledged classes of this planet, to the stealth nobility who runs this joint. To the psychopathocracy.

It saddens me that you do not see it. But again, we come to free will.

Just out of curiosity, where was that contemptfull civilian life you went to? Most of the places I've been are, dare I say the word, nice.

reply to post by Mindmelding


If everyone who has posted about being in has a romanticized biased view of life in the military, couldn't it also be said that you have a romanticized biased view of life without it? Is it really that difficult to believe that they aren't all a bunch of psychopathic killers and that some of them may actually be happy they joined?

And where do you think those generals come from? They were once at the bottom of the totem pole and it took them a few decades to get where they are now. So doesn't it stand to reason that there are many more people currently at the bottom of said totem pole who are just as intelligent and see the big picture just as much as those generals just with less shiny rank?

[edit on 15-5-2009 by Jenna]

Originally posted by Mindmelding
reply to post by Hazelnut

 

The trillion dollar budget holes, the false wars, the internal fascism, the lies and manipulations, the torture, the rapes, the dead puppies, the imperialism, the corporate crooneyism, and, most ironically of all, the idea that they save the internal freedom of America from invasion when in reality they are controlled by the financial interests of the city of london...

Your arguments are not with the military they are with the politicians who dictate to the military. You are fighting the wrong war. You are flat out wrong. But post away if it makes you feel better.

In your own profound, maniacal way you are contributing to the massive misconceptions and misinformation which detract from the support of your "nice" civilian life. Do something constructive. Be creative. And if you can't accomplish anything meaningful, keep on bashing away at the only reason you are even priviledged enough to be sitting there whupping on your keyboard.

Jenna: I don't think everyone in the military is a psychopath. I think, due to ponerology, that there is a tendency for psychopaths to occupy positions of power within the military, it's a not so subtle distinction. We have talked about this before on ATS. What I think is people join the military thinking it is one thing, namely defense of country, when it is mostly another - elitist power tool. The military personnel for them most part thinks they serve a flag, a population and defend a nation, but in reality they serve the machaivelian machinations of people like Kissinger, Rumsfeld, Bush Sr and Brezynski.

Hazelnut: sorry to be blunt, but I don't feel I am sitting here typing because of the military protecting my right to do so, I am sitting here typing because some military protected this right from other military that were run by psychopaths. Take both of them out of the equation and I am still here typing. Besides, how many people can't participate in the discussion because of military action? How many people has the military silenced?

I find myself repeating, a fact for which I apologise. There is no need to add more, so I will retry to exit this thread and leave you all to have the last words. Try not to bait me back in

[edit on 15-5-2009 by Mindmelding]

[edit on 15-5-2009 by Mindmelding]

reply to post by BrainPower


"oh yeah, and there are more "oath keepers" in the military than a lot of people think. you know what im talking about. "

I support our servicemen and women. I have some good friends that are in the military.

I know that the majority of our military is comprised of people that took their oath to the Constitution seriously.

When the time comes I will fight by your side.

I worry about U.N. troops, foreign nationals that are in our military, and "contractors" or merc's, that are usually not Americans. These are the people they will send to get your guns.

Originally posted by Mindmelding

I find myself repeating, a fact for which I apologise. There is no need to add more, so I will retry to exit this thread and leave you all to have the last words. Try not to bait me back in

[edit on 15-5-2009 by Mindmelding]

Yes. I've noticed you've been repeating yourself, and no offense, but you sound more and more like a barking embacil, and I won't even bother to accept your apologies. Not worthy, and necessary. Thank You.
I'll apologize on the other hand (more to the OP, and to others who appreciate the valor of this thread) for biting your bait Mindpattymelt.

You have failed to answer my questions.
""Sorry, but I'm going to wear my feelings on my sleeve now too.
I want to know what a someone like yourself has applied "fundamentally" to others and society? What actions you've taken for your causes?
Positive differences you've made for others?
I'm not trying to judge you, but I am curious."" (I posted earlier Ciccio)

You wrote: ""First, the organising principle of any society is family, friends, love.""
Atleast prove to this thread (by request, of course) your credible purpose.
Actions you've taken to support your causes chief.
Truthfully answer those questions, and show us how your input and actions has added value and creative idealism to your causes, and to your community.
If you can do this for us, I'll begin to listen to your harmonious rants. Okay?
Ahhh yes. I apologize for repeating myself.

"""The tribe. When wars come it all goes to crap"""

Yo.! That's deep man. WoW
I don't pray, so I'll leave it more to the religious ones to pray for you, but I truly hope you never have to experience war. Truly. I wouldn't wish that upon anyone.
But yeah, back to the Tribes....you know I'm getting the feeling you'd fit better in one. You ever consider Africa?
Perhaps a better diligence and comfort of life in general for you, yes?
Nice, laid back. No law. You don't even have to wear any clothes.
You don't have to bitch about paying taxes there either!
I think you'll fit right in.


You wrote: "Second. Kid? Did the military teach you to make baseless assumptions or are you just trying to physically intimidate over the internet? If you're truthfull about your age we are in the same demographic...""

I don't know how or where to possibly begin to fathom your arrogance, and vague and narrow-minded simplicity but I'll do my best to be brief, and punctual in your response, sir.

No. The military taught me to make my own decisions, more than anything. ANd I'm not sure what you meant by baseless assumptions, becuase I never made any. Well, maybe beer goggles.
AND I'm not sure I would be "physically capable to physically intimidate anyone over the internet." Ya putz.
If I intimidated you, (which I still ponder where) well, I must've intimidated you mentally. No? By a dumb ass military guy, well how bout that.
Again, I shouldn't even be wasting my words with a bum like you. Sorry for feeding this troll.

"""Your post illustrates the idea I have about the military. Endless rationalizations about the validity of your cause, of your life. Yet all I see is mystakes and denial. However, I do respect the free will of people, so, please, live your life as you see fit. But do realise the only reason there is widescale international wars is because power elites always find people like you willing to fight them... so, in a sense, you are all responsible for the atrocities that happen in them."""

I read these words, and I just won't lower my standards to this. Your grammar, and extensive thought process in general might actually convince me that you infact did grow up in a tribe.


Ahh, yes. gratuity is included sir. It won't be necessary.
Thank You. Not that I was expecting more than 10% anyway.... cheap bastahd.





[edit on 15-5-2009 by Ben Niceknowinya]

Imagine a country as a single man. The military would be his gun. This gun can be used for protecting himself and his family against a serious threat or death. The same man could also go out and burglarize his neighbor using this gun. The gun IS a tool. It is a tool that can be used for justified or unjustified action, depending on the owner.

I like this analogy to counter mind's arguments, although it hardly seems worth it. Let's take both militaries out of the equation and consider the man and his gun, with someone in the background on the computer spouting to everyone they should put their guns down and live in peace.

As soon as the man drops his tool (the gun) a pack of wolves approaches. The man on the computer teaches them of love, and tries to negotiate a treaty, but it only takes one lone wolf to destroy the whole process, once the carnage starts, the whole pack of wolves joins in, when it would have taken only one shot at the beginning to scare them away.

That is a pretty simplistic analogy, maybe it will sink in that we live in a world of wolves, but I doubt it.

I, too, am extremely disappointed in myself for not serving in the military. I am too old now (just a little) or I would still join.

All of my contact with military personnel has been inspiring. When I first moved near Eglin Air Force Base, I was amazed to see the hats come off as they entered a building. Their posture was impeccable, they spoke with courtesy. They listened attentively when I was speaking.

In my opinion, the lessons learned in the military are priceless, and we should all be so lucky as to have experienced them. War is a terrible thing, but the military is about much more than waging war. It is about growing young people into responsible adults. It is about preventing war, it is about pushing the limits of technology, it is about serving as an example to foreign populace that have never seen a "professional" military, or an American.

I commend you all, and I advise the fruitloops that are stereo-typing our soldiers from a couple of unfortunate photos, to go visit a military town.

And for the other fruitloops that think we can pray or meditate our way to peace, thank you for your efforts, they are appreciated, I think you are making a difference, now leave the soldiers to do their job and keep you safe so you may continue yours!

[edit on 15-5-2009 by getreadyalready]

[edit on 15-5-2009 by getreadyalready]

reply to post by ADVISOR

The ASVAB is not an IQ test. It is designed to put you into a skill area where you are most likely to succeed.
I took it in '76, my youngest daughter took it 6 months ago, Is going into some acronym thing, in the Navy we called it NBC Warfare, she's Army.


My son will be taking it again, not pass/fail, just to qualify for the job he wants, ( tanker),.Was light on mechanical portion. Been studying, and with the help and guidance of his recruiter, he'll make it.

reply to post by LAUGHING-CAT


I took the ASVAB in high school, Oct. '68. Got the job I wanted, engineman. (Cross-rated to MM later when we didn't need so many ENs.)

reply to post by Gawdzilla
Know what you mean about crossing over. I was being directed into nukes, was 17, and in my idealism, decided to go into Electronic Warfare instead. got to the Fleet and found it,elecronics, boring, went to the flight deck, where I stayed for the next 5 years as a Plane Captain.
The Nav was very accomodating, let me do the job I (and they) felt would do the Navy the most good and made E-5 in 3 1/2 years.None of us were mindless and the dupes that think so either think too much or prefer their heads stay implanted in their keisters.

One VERY BIG THING that most people forget when applying
Brains and Brawn to Military Organizations and the general
public is the effects of Societal Competitiveness increasing
over time.

Using an example from Hockey and Football,
a modern College-level Hockey or Football team
from the 2000's can BLOW AWAY a pro team from the
70's and even 80's simply because our society in both the
United States and Canada is so much more competitive with
that Winner-take-All attitude being constantly ingrained into us.

I take a look at modern college-level and even high school
athletes and can pretty much say to you that THEY'RE MONSTERS!
Gargantuan behemoths that are far faster, stronger, smarter,
more skilled, and far more driven than WE EVER WERE!!!

This means the teams they play on are also far more effective
and cohesive because of the more intense and well-defined
training applied at even the lowest levels of sport, education
and general society. This also applies to our Armed Forces.

Our troops are FAR Faster, Bigger, Stronger and Smarter
and way more LETHAL than ANY soldier or warrior from
WW2, Vietnam or even Gulf War One!

They also have much more lethal weapons to play with that
take greater amounts of basic smarts and training to operate
thus we tend to UPGRADE the quality of troops tasked with
operating that gear...therefore...we have a better quality troop
that really knows how to kick butt and isn't afraid to do so
on a repeated intense basis unlike those of even 15 years ago.

I actually admire these kids from today, and because of
video games such as SOCOM-4 and Call of Duty and Halo,
they are already trained on how to be the most lethal
fighting force on Earth. If I were the enemy I would
DEFINITELY BE quaking in my boots!

reply to post by Jenna


Jenna, the civilian world is the source of psychotic killers.

Those in the military engage the world's psychotic killers.

Some of the concepts I see presented about the military are just unbelievable.

Unbelievably stupid.

I have two defining lines in my life. Pre-military, and Post-military.

I have immense respect for our brothers in Uniform. My brother is in the Army, he's deployed to Iraq, and he is certainly no dummy. He's also an Oath Keeper.

I have had much training, from martial arts to tactical weapons training...I have never been in the military, but should the need arise, I can be a very effective soldier. I didn't join the military because I'm not a regiment oriented person. I don't like routine. The only ones I've ever stuck to are my martial routines, and the natural awake/asleep cycle. That's about all I can handle.

I could go through boot camp just fine. I have a couple of times in private bootcamp training(as inspired by the US Army) I got everything but paratrooper training. That took money I didn't have.

[edit on 15-5-2009 by projectvxn]

reply to post by BrainPower


A star and a flag for you !
Thank you for starting this thread !!
Could you please expand on what the oath keepers are and how is it accepted by officers, generals, etc...

I consider our military personnel hero's because in my opinion, it's not just a job. Most people who go to work don't know they may have to give their life to fulfill the job commitment.

We need to salute our soldiers commitments to our safety and freedom !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Maybe I'm wrong but I think these song lyrics some it up pretty well

Toby Keith

I’m just tryin’ to be a father, raise a daughter and a son
Be a lover to their mother, everythin’ to everyone
Up and at ‘em bright and early, I’m all business in my suit
Yeah I’m dressed up for success, from my head down to my boots
I don’t do it for money, there’s bills I that I can’t pay
I don’t do it for the glory, I just do it anyway
Providing for our future’s, my responsibility
Yeah I’m real good under pressure, being all that I can be
And I can’t call in sick on Mondays when the weekend’s been too strong
I just work straight through the holidays, and sometimes all night long
You can bet that I stand ready, when the wolf growls at the door
Hey I’m solid, hey I’m steady, hey I’m true down to the core.

And I will always do my duty no matter what the price
I’ve counted up the cost, I know the sacrifice
Oh and I don’t want to die for you, but if dyin’s asked of me
I’ll bear that cross with honor, cause freedom don’t come free.

I’m an American Soldier an American
Beside my brothers and my sisters, I will proudly take a stand
When liberty’s in jeopardy, I will always do what’s right

I’m out here on the front lines, sleep in peace tonight
American Soldier, I’m and American, Soldier.

An American Soldier an American
Beside my brothers and my sisters, I will proudly take a stand
When liberty’s in jeopardy, I will always do what’s right
I’m out here on the front lines, sleep in peace tonight
American Soldier, I’m and American, an American, an American, Soldier.

[edit on 15-5-2009 by jfj123]

The truth my brothers and sisters is this: I don't do it for you.

I never have. In USAREC i'd here guys say "oh, but we did this for your freedoms." Those words will never pass my lips. I did it for me. I love this. I came from nothing, poor and misguided from a hole in southern Louisiana. Now I have more than I could have hoped for, but I have never once woke up and thought "Man, I hope I keep American's freedom of speech today." Hell no. I do not care.

We serve them, but we are not their servants.

reply to post by Mindmelding


Bait, bait, bait. (Yes, I'm messing with you a bit there.)

What you seem to be missing is that those with psychopathic tendencies are not going to last long before being weeded out of the military with a bad conduct, dishonorable, or other than honorable discharge as a result of their conduct and activities while enlisted. Few, if any, are going to be able to conceal or restrain their psychopathic tendencies long enough to make it to the higher ranks.

While you may believe you know what the military is really about, unless you have been in there is not really any way for you to truly understand it. It is used as a tool by the government, sometimes for good purposes and sometimes for not so good purposes, but that is not in any way an indication of the type of people who do join or what they joined to do.

reply to post by dooper


I agree. The few who manage to slip in undetected shouldn't be taken as representative of most or even all of the rest. I've spent literally my entire life around people who either were in or are in the military and have yet to meet a single psychopath out of any of them.

Some of the things people think are true about everyone in the military absolutely amaze me...

reply to post by Jenna


I think you have not yet realised what a psychopath is. A psychopath is not an emotionally out of control individual, they actually blend in pretty well. What is different about them is their lower emotional baseline, their coldness.

I would submit not only do they fit in well in them military, because they don't get emotionally riled while going up the hierarchy and submitted to the authority of others, and because they are usually people with reasonable or even high IQ's. I think their lack of emotional empathy forces them to think a lot to function in society, so they usually end up pretty bright. They are left brain people.

I don't have the theory that the military are dumb. The replies here showcase that most military are just normal people, with perhaps a few dunces here and there, but that's true of any organization, and some pretty smart people. I have the theory that leadership is psychopathic, per ponerology, ie, per the disproportional relevance of a minority of psychopaths, that tend to be higher up in the hierarchy, and that the general personnel is emotionally missguided, because they fail to see not only what the military is, and elitist construct that hurts mankind, but they also fail to see the consequences of their actions, to see that they never solve any problems or defend anyone, mearly add to the elitist created chaos.. With exceptions of course, like that football player that was killed by friendly fire.

A world without military would not be chaotic, although sure, there still would be crime. We still would have the minority of psychopaths to deal with. But at least there would not be these massive armed groups controlled by them and basically tricked into serving their selfish goals.

This is how I see it Jenna, and nothing said in this thread has made me change my mind. But I do respect anyone in the military who is not a psychopath and don't think going into anarchist or revolutionary movements would change anything. What I hope is, over time, more people in the military realise that what I am saying is true, and, through introspection, get back on the path of what is just, what is ethical, what is loving, what is right.

But again, I'm not here to change anyone's life, just give the alternate viewpoint. This is not the ravings of a stoned hippy, this is pacifism based on a scientific theory, ponerology, which explains the psychological motivations of elitist powermongers that control most organizations, including the military. This is someone giving you guys the big picture, should you chose to accept it. It's not the military per se, it's that minority, that psychopathic percentile (anywhere between 3 and 15% from the papers I've read) that invalidates the organization, not everyone else, which is why the people here who are taking it personally miss the point through a natural ignorance of what ponerology is.

Ponerology is a much supressed and very niche area of psychology and psychiatry, because psychopaths are everywhere, the percentage is small but it adds up to a lot of people, and they realise that a group awareness of who they are, what motivates them and how to screen for them would greatly hamper their control freak lifestyles. And, much like any other predator, it's just their nature.

Again for the military posting here: the psychopath is not the crazy yelling and shooting a bazooka with glee, the crazy is the guy who would send marines to disguised as iranians or somali pirates to attack their own countrymen. The crazy is the general that is securing afghanistani poppy fields and ordering drones to bomb weddings.

Should you folks choose to see this, it is there, in plain sight. But like everything you have to open your minds to the possibility or else your brain just picks up what it wants to see.

Don't bait me again please, it results in verbatious discharge

[edit on 15-5-2009 by Mindmelding]

reply to post by Mindmelding


Not meaning to join in on the beating of a dead horse, but I have a hard time letting this one go, meldy-buddy.

Society does not crumble because of the military. Society does a damned good job of killing itself. It doesn't need help.

You have banks encouraging people to take out loans they cannot hope to pay off in any reasonable amount of time, people letting banks talk them into taking those loans, those same banks reporting those loans as capital gains, and you can see where everything goes to hell when the 'buck' finally stops being passed around and debts are called due.

You have people who keep looking to the Federal government to pay their bills or solve their problems. Then they complain when the Feds take control and make decisions that are inconvenient for those who wished for federal intervention in the first place.

Laziness and complacency ultimately lead to dependence - which ultimately crumbles a society. It's not unlike what happened to the Soviets and the Romans - it's where we are going, now.

You can try and pass off the sins of society onto the military if you wish. It doesn't change where they come from. And God knows - the military is full of its own transgressions. Many of those problems come from politicians who create policies that make it exceedingly difficult to accomplish much of anything. Though you will always have knuckle-heads in the military - some pilot who flies fatigued and blows up some of his own allies; some psycho getting too excited over blowing people up (blowing things up is always fun - but it's not cool to blow up people or their homes); and some bad turns of events when a Humvee runs over a kid who darted out in front of it.

Is the military necessary?

Are clothes necessary?

One can argue for a very long time that they are not necessary. It doesn't change that it's an idealist perspective that stands in contrast to reality. We will continue to wear clothes for both utility, fashion, and comfort. Just as we will always have a military.

As for my intelligence? I tend to be a bit arrogant, but not without reason. I was 'out there' in a group of gifted students - known for being exceptionally creative and perceptive. I can learn faster than you can teach me as I see the patterns in the mechanics and have enough information to predict additional mechanics. As an example, in High School I was developing a theory very similar to that of Quantum Field Theory. I didn't yet realize QFT existed at the time - nor did I have near the observational tools researchers of that field had.

It simply made sense as the next logical system mechanic. Which likely means I'm borderline insane - as it's been stated that QFT is anything but logical.

So, I'm not dumb. Got a 98 on the ASVAAB my sophomore year, and a 94 the year I enlisted (supposedly they bounce around). Every recruiter in this district was trying to be my friend. I was partial to the Navy, particularly the Navy's breed of aviation, so I never really spent too much time with the other branches. They didn't bother with a dream sheet - they asked me what I wanted to do, and wouldn't shut up about the nuclear program. I knew that job would be boring as all get-out, and be more math than I cared to learn to regurgitate on demand. I was already trained in electronics (had a good vocational program through the college when I was in high school) - and I love aviation. I enlisted as an Aviation Electronics Technician, Intermediate level maintenance (component-level repair... which is almost a joke in today's world of crazy-ridiculous integration).

I graduated A-School top of my class and lost my mom to cancer the same day. We had decided I would go ahead and finish up my training, and my instructor and the Chiefs were trying to pump me out of there early (the last few days were a formality after you had already passed your last test). My family and I had decided to just finish up my training so that I didn't have to come back after taking emergency leave (and with a terminal diagnosis - an accompanying funeral) to finish up my training.

Leaving early didn't happen (PSD decided it would be funny to lose the paperwork) and I ended up leaving late (long story short - PSD blindsided our NCOs by deciding it would be cool to surprise them with sending the class off a day early... and giving some of us only a couple hours to catch a plane at a terminal an hour away). My room mate talked to SATO - I was in no mood.... I about gutted some poor booter (er... 'new sailor...' ) who was standing a Yeoman watch at the megabuilding. Apparently mine was the first set of reserve orders he'd seen. He got the five-second abridged version of my orders. Shortest lecture I've ever given... arguably my most effective.

I put on AT3 (Petty Officer Third Class, Aviation Electronics Technician) about five... six moths ago. I've been to Korea once, got all kinds of unofficial praise for my efforts while there - a command coin from the officer in charge of the project, as well as the CO's command coin. That was cool - they're a nice bunch in Chinhae.

I've yet to shoot a rifle at anything other than a paper target. Hope I never have to shoot at anything other than a paper target, too - but I'd rather drop a potential/likely threat than 'wait and see.'

I've got a head on my shoulders, an ear to the ground, an eye on the sky, and a heart for the Lord. I won't always know what the right thing to do is - but I've a survivalist mentality that serves me well for detecting ulterior motives.

Many in the military share this. They aren't armed cattle.

Though I've met my fair share of people in the military I would not trust with a firearm.... good people.... even responsible.... but there's just that element of common sense missing that scares me when it comes in proximity to anything potentially lethal.

Ironically, one of those guys was going off to be a Fire Controlman (missile tracking, guidance, etc - for those not familiar with the designation). 99 ASVAAB and couldn't figure out how to fold his underwear. But that's what the team is for.... lol - good times, Basic was...

But, that's enough lecturing/reminiscing.