US Torture (warning, graphic)

Originally posted by Alxandro
reply to post by jaamaan

 

Let me Google that for you

Study sheds light on hazing in schools

SPRINGFIELD, Mass. (WWLP) - The dictionary defines hazing as an initiation process involving harassment.

According to a new study of more than 11,000 college students, it's a common practice.

University of Maine Researchers found that more than half of college students involved in clubs, teams and organizations experience hazing.

But the problem doesn't start in college.

The study shows 47-percent of college freshmen got hazed in high school.

Researchers say the most common hazing practices are alcohol consumption, humiliation, isolation, sleep-deprivation and sex acts.

Article here


Here's what's in the news

Could you please point out the part where it is compared with torture ?
Else i fail to see your point.

Originally posted by Alxandro
Let me ask you one thing, since you seem to be such a terrorist sympathizer that is so concerned about their "freedom", would you like to go on record here on ATS as saying you would be happy to accept these "prisoners" into your home town and welcome them with open arms?

Please be honest.

So, are you basically saying here that International Red Cross from Geneva is a Terrorist Loving organization ?

Fine by me...

But remember something, first, some of us here (ME) used to work for them, and some of us here, also (ME) were POW's and been tortured by religious extremists in the war where many atrocities took place, in the ways similar to Gitmo or worse, and got out alive thanks to them.

What you and me personally feel about terrorists is irrelevant. Even though we do not like it, we as a country are binded by international law and we built our policies around that law...

I was a professional soldier, and while I see why some of you would go on the shooting and torturing spree if someone you love was killed by them, I also know that emotions can blind individuals to the point of no return.

I seen it happen many times...

Many members of my family died in the war. Those who executed them were war criminals and some were prosecuted for their crimes.

If I tortured the enemy, regardless of my motives, personal loss, hate or just plain fun, at least I would have balls to admit that I did broke the law, I would be man enough to admit that I took it from the hands of US and international community and put it in mine, I would be a human enough to admit that I did something I would not like to be done to me and I would be a soldier enough to stand in the trial and plaid GUILTY.

Unfortunately, many are NOT

We have many prisoners here in US returning home if they are not found guilty...

What's the problem ?

Would you consider people in Gitmo terrorists regardless what investigation brings to light because mere capturing of them by US troops makes them guilty in your world ?

Do you believe that all of them should be executed just so you feel more secure ?

Would you be able to say to those who were proven innocent in their face that you supported their detention and torture ?

Please be honest

Originally posted by jaamaan
They are also very hard to detect for the outside world compared to fysical assaults.
It is indeed a gray area, some of the technics are used in common jails and other intitutions.

But when most of these technics are used together for a long period of time, lets say maybe for years, some x hours per day, it becomes quite frightning to me.
And it is my personal opinion, based on what i seen and read, that this is the type of "torture" that is used on some people in guantanamo bay, if not on most of them.
There is a lot of photographic circumstantial evidence around that might support this assumption.

I agree with you here.

So at what point do we call something torture that should not be done? Should we have different classifications/levels of it? I am not a pacifist so I do not hold those views, but I do feel that I’m a defender of the innocence. I bothers me to see a girl held down and whipped for breaking some extreme religious ideals, or to see innocent people tortured and forced into a subservient role by others for nothing other than pure evil intent.

But on the other hand if someone took my child and hid him to where he would die if not found I would get that information out of that person using anything and everything with not a thought to his well being in the least. So even though we both see many grey areas as to what could be torture or not, I also see many grey areas as to when I would justify its use.

Originally posted by 5thElement
Would you consider people in Gitmo terrorists regardless what investigation brings to light because mere capturing of them by US troops makes them guilty in your world ?

Do you believe that all of them should be executed just so you feel more secure ?

Would you be able to say to those who were proven innocent in their face that you supported their detention and torture ?

Please be honest

The problem is where do they go for no country wants them? They were captured on the battle field as illegal solders under international law.

BTW many have been released as their cases have been reviewed.

Also as you know war is hell, so some people are innocent and some are very guilty. The one truism about war is the innocent will always suffer no matter how hard you try to prevent it.

Originally posted by Xtrozero
They were captured on the battle field as illegal solders under international law.

What illegal soldiers ? Be more specific, please...

Are you talking about people with weapons under age of 18 ?

One of the main reasons we shouldn't torture is this: If we decide that torture, a questionable and inhumane way of obtaining information that is sketchy at best, is acceptable, then why not use some of our soldiers to drive cars filled with explosives into neighborhoods where we believe there are terrorists? Why not video tape the torture and send it to our enemies to show an example? If we allow ANY unjust action to be committed against a fellow human, regardless of how "evil" they are, then we are no better then the people we fight. What is SUPPOSED to make the USA and other Western nations "so great" is that we, as a society, have taken a stand in saying "We, no matter what, will never send suicide soldiers, we'll never purposefully kill civilians, we'll NEVER TORTURE, we will use our power and influence to help those in need and to set an example for others. When people in 3rd world countries are being oppressed and exploited, they will be able to think that somewhere, across the ocean, there is a county that has evolved passed committing these atrocities. That there are powerful people working together around the clock trying to end their suffering. We as a nation and as a people are finally united in doing our part not only to express idealistic beliefs in our dealing with the world, but to become an embodiment of those beliefs and virtues. We're saying that some beliefs cannot be changed or adjusted no matter what the cost." Lots of people argue that the torture has yielded important information that has saved the lives of many, and perhaps I'm alone in thinking this but I'd rather not have that information and still be a nation of ideals, morals, and above all hope. I'd much rather see an early grave and use my life to stand for something very important to me than live longer and be hated and despised. And I know that's an unpopular opinion to have these days where profits determine the value of a human life and where we are judged not on our adhereation to a moral code but instead by our accumulation of tangible goods, but I believe Gandhi said it best, "be the change you want in the world." For if I see a world without torture, then I should never accept torture, and if others do accept it, and if they tempt me with their violence and ignorance to use such a horrible device, then really, that's their problem. Not mine. I'm so over torture.

Originally posted by MakeSoap
I'd much rather see an early grave and use my life to stand for something very important to me than live longer and be hated and despised. And I know that's an unpopular opinion to have these days where profits determine the value of a human life and where we are judged not on our adhereation to a moral code but instead by our accumulation of tangible goods, but I believe Gandhi said it best, "be the change you want in the world." For if I see a world without torture, then I should never accept torture, and if others do accept it, and if they tempt me with their violence and ignorance to use such a horrible device, then really, that's their problem. Not mine. I'm so over torture.

I am sure that your opinion is not "unpopular", i firmly believe that most people dont want torture on some of the basis you describe.
The media might make you feel that your opinion is "unpopular".

Since 2003 it has been fully documented by rights organisations, and accessible to anyone listening, that direct US policy for prisoners included electrodes on genitals, suffocation, hanging prisoners from bars by the wrists, beatings, concealed murders, sexual assault threats, sexual humiliation and forced nudity, which is considered a sex crime in warfare, international and domestic law. Many voices, from Jane Mayer's to Michael Ratner's to Jameel Jaffer's to Amnesty and Human Rights Watch, made similar documented charges. Did our leaders call for investigations? They barely even called for a moment's consideration; tolerating torture – "tough tactics", "enhanced interrogations" in those demonic euphemisms – polled well; supporting it made them look tough in close elections; it was overwhelmingly OK with them.

LINK

Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword. It both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind. And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind has closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry. Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded by patriotism, will offer up all of their rights unto the leader and gladly so. How do I know? For this is what I have done. And I am Caesar.

his statement by an unknown author has also been wrongly attributed to William Shakespeare, but there are no records of it prior to late 2001. It has been debunked at Snopes.com and About.com

Source

Originally posted by Xtrozero
The problem is where do they go for no country wants them? They were captured on the battle field as illegal solders under international law.

Could you please show me a document that actualy thates this ?
"illegal soldiers under international law."

Because i cannot find anything and i actualy doubt something like that exist in any "legal" document.
Just because the US government got away with torture by using smart termology does not make it legal.

You do get a whole lot of other interesting information when googleling the phrase "illegal soldiers under international law".

International Law Aspects of the Iraq War and Occupation ...

Although the use of those weapons is banned under several international treaties .... to allow soldiers to “dazzle” rather than fire at drivers who fail to stop. ... unusual and illegal under Protocol IV of the Convention on Prohibitions or ... for WTO membership, “would not be authorized under international law. ...
www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/iraq/attack/lawindex.htm

(snip)

Soldier's duty: Say no to illegal war

16 Jun 2006 ... He says Bush committed "a betrayal and deception of the American people," ignored his obligations under international law and has ...
www.seattlepi.com/opinion/274130_soldierduty16.html

(snip)

Nuremburg defense? The Iraq War is illegal under international law ...

The Iraq War is illegal under international law..... ... then we'd have to conclude that every soldier who went to Iraq is a war criminal who must be ...
www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x8349365

(snip)

'Illegal War' Could Mean Soldiers Face Prosecution

Stephen Solley QC, an international human rights lawyer, said yesterday: "I feel this is ... But he added that, under the terms of the ICC, British soldiers and ... War within the law? Suez. Illegal invasion planned in secret by UK and ...
www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0312-06.htm

(snip)

Soldiers Say No! home page

SOLDIERS' RIGHTS AND RESPONSIBILITIES UNDER INTERNATIONAL LAW ... responsibility of individual soldiers to refuse to follow illegal orders or to participate ...
www.peacehost.net/ssn/

(etc. etc.)

google

So if you are pro torture than the (international) law is not on your side and i am sure it is pretty much the same in the US itself.
There for i am not quite sure why you bring in the law on this one.

A battle of idealist verse the realist...

In my opinion, if the world was full of idealist, we would get nowhere, and crumble.

If we were all realist, the world would be a dictatorship.

I see the pros and cons of both sides of this argument...since that is the case, I could never fully support one side or the other.

We will never reach equilibrium, we will just continue bouncing back and forth...

reply to post by jaamaan


According to that, we have a bunch of illegal soldiers that have the rights to say no to torture, but since the whole thing is already illegal, what is preventing further crimes from being committed?

There will never be an "ideal" war. It is just a game of crushing the enemy, and getting away with the most violent actions you can (or peaceful) with the acceptance of all the other states of the world.

In that regard, war is a joke, and if you enter it, you are subject to the penalties of it...which is anything goes.

I do not believe an innocent citizen who opposes the war, not fighting, being taken hostage, but just throwing a rock at an enemy soldier is enough to get labeled as an enemy in my eyes.

reply to post by Divinorumus


It is amazing that when the September 11 attacks happened, everyone wanted to save the our country from another terrorist attack, so they accepted any form of procedure that got the information they needed to stop the attacks. The whole thing is not in the best interest of our forces around the world, the enemy, in their ability to make waves and news on liberal news shows, will capture our military personal and do the same things to them as was done in the pictures. So I am expecting to see that military personal from around the world stationed at our bases will start to be kidnapped and tortured.

I sure hope this was worth it.

What is the point of this?

The individuals in these photos have been prosecuted and their commanders have been relieved. The images have been used by terror organizations to openly recruit as far out a Liberia. Who knows how many would not have died if those responsible had not done what they did.

The only question I have for you is; If you do not approve of waterboarding or stress positions, then how do you extract information that could save someone from dying, from an individual?

reply to post by Fremd

Originally posted by Fremd

 

...
Hazing and what those detainee's went through in Gitmo are two different things.

1.) They were never tried, how do you know their not innocent?
2.) We dont treat our prisoners at home like that, ya know, like Charles Manson...people who are monsters.


A person is required to have a very deep seeded and 'foaming at the mouth' tendency for bigotry in order to classify torture in the way you just did.

You have my sympathy.

Question for you, how do you know they are 100% innocent?

We don't the whole story yet.
Even Obama was once gung ho on closing Gitmo. Then he got elected, got the full briefing and now it looks like he is stalling.
He must have discovered something that tells him maybe these people should not be released afterall.

BTW, save your sympathy, maybe you should contact Obama and tell him you are willing to Adopt a Detainee.

reply to post by Malcram

Originally posted by Malcram

 

So I suppose if I break into your house tonight and subject you and your family to weeks of "humiliation, isolation, sleep-deprivation and sex acts", maybe followed by a bit of waterboarding, beatings, use of attack dogs etc, all done by force, that you will be happy to dismiss this as a "hazing" prank and wouldn't dare to call it "torture"?

No?

Weak analogy, nobody has broken into anyone's home, they were taken from their homeland and put in Gitmo.
Now they get three square meals a day.

Maybe you should contact Obama and tell him you are willing to Adopt a Detainee too.

reply to post by jaamaan

Originally posted by jaamaan

Could you please point out the part where it is compared with torture ?
Else i fail to see your point.

You basically proved my point for me because if it does not compare with torture then it must not be torture.

Geez, I've seen more torture watching a Japanese TV game show.

Something tells me you are part of the young PC generation that worry more about hurt feelings.

Did you not ever got paddled by the gym teacher or principal?

reply to post by 5thElement

Originally posted by 5thElement

So, are you basically saying here that International Red Cross from Geneva is a Terrorist Loving organization ?


Fine by me...

But remember something, first, some of us here (ME) used to work for them, and some of us here, also (ME) were POW's and been tortured by religious extremists in the war where many atrocities took place, in the ways similar to Gitmo or worse, and got out alive thanks to them.

I give tons of credit to the Red Cross for their humanitarian efforts. I couldn't do what they do and I doubt many here could as well, especially knowing that there are some twisted animals out there that would no doubt even attack those that are coming in to help them.

I'm really sorry you've seen and even experienced these atrocities first hand, but what you've stated here leads me to believe that you've seen worse than what's taken place in Gitmo, so maybe Gitmo ain't that bad afterall.

What you and me personally feel about terrorists is irrelevant. Even though we do not like it, we as a country are binded by international law and we built our policies around that law...

I was a professional soldier, and while I see why some of you would go on the shooting and torturing spree if someone you love was killed by them, I also know that emotions can blind individuals to the point of no return.

I seen it happen many times...

Yes, I agree. WE ARE binded by international law, but you forget that some of these people would waste no time in spitting on this law. They wear civilian clothing, wear no official soldiers uniform and use innocent people as human shields, so why should Geneva even apply to them?

In a nut shell, there is no way you can guarantee that for every international law we follow and every weapon we lay down, these people will do the same.

Many members of my family died in the war. Those who executed them were war criminals and some were prosecuted for their crimes.

If I tortured the enemy, regardless of my motives, personal loss, hate or just plain fun, at least I would have balls to admit that I did broke the law, I would be man enough to admit that I took it from the hands of US and international community and put it in mine, I would be a human enough to admit that I did something I would not like to be done to me and I would be a soldier enough to stand in the trial and plaid GUILTY.

Unfortunately, many are NOT

We have many prisoners here in US returning home if they are not found guilty...

What's the problem ?

To answer your your question, yes, I agree with you, these soldiers should stand trial because what was done was wrong. I've never defended their actions, other than to say it's not torture.

Extremely sorry for the loss of your family.
I'm at a loss for words here.
You say that some of the war criminals that executed your family were prosecuted for their crimes.
I would be interested to know how you would feel if you found out that the remaining war criminals are now serving time in Gitmo today.

Would you consider people in Gitmo terrorists regardless what investigation brings to light because mere capturing of them by US troops makes them guilty in your world ?

Do you believe that all of them should be executed just so you feel more secure ?

Would you be able to say to those who were proven innocent in their face that you supported their detention and torture ?

Please be honest

If they were in fact 100% innocent yes I would say to them sorry and have Obama hand them a hefty stimulus check, they would certainly deserve it.

It's all a numbers game so the law of averages tells me that there may be a few folks in Gitmo that may in fact be innocent, but not all.
I'm sure there are more guilty people than there are innocent, but the way some people act over this issue with their phony outrage leads many to believe they honestly think all Gitmo detainees are 100% innocent and should be freed.

Where is the logic in this?

Let's just say for one second it is torture.
How can anyone really condemn the use of torture on a group of people that pride themselves on dying for their cause anyway?

Even more twisted logic, think about it.

reply to post by jaamaan


That's mild compared to the torture that exists in the dungeons of other countries. And much of the pictures you posted occurred from one incident, that being Abu Ghraib...so no you haven't convinced me thoroughly of your position. Not one bit.

Originally posted by Alxandro
I would be interested to know how you would feel if you found out that the remaining war criminals are now serving time in Gitmo today

Gitmo is IMO nothing more then glorified concentration camp.

Nobody is serving time there... Last time I checked, people serve time after they are sentenced on the court of law.

I do personally believe that some of them could be guilty, the thing is, none of us really know

[edit on 29-4-2009 by 5thElement]

Originally posted by Alxandro
reply to post by jaamaan

 

Originally posted by jaamaan

Could you please point out the part where it is compared with torture ?
Else i fail to see your point.

You basically proved my point for me because if it does not compare with torture then it must not be torture.

Geez, I've seen more torture watching a Japanese TV game show.

Something tells me you are part of the young PC generation that worry more about hurt feelings.

Did you not ever got paddled by the gym teacher or principal?

It is interesting to note than that most of the world see most of the pictures i posted as torture.
And the actions in the article you posted defines these actions in your article as "hazing".

There is a clear difference, even if you do not see it.